Infinite Regress: the one pathway to salvation

[paul_c]

Hi Paul,

If being “saved” is only a temporary condition, what good is that? As I was asking, how is a water-baptized “saved” person who is burning in hell for eternity…any better off than a non-water-baptized sinner who is burning in hell for eternity? It all sounds like utter futility to me. What do I need CC sacraments for if I’m still just as likely to die in my sins (and go to hell) as anyone who hasn’t gotten the CC sacraments? I don’t understand the point. It all sounds like utter futility!

Being “saved” gives you a chance at heaven, if you cooperate with saving grace. So it has infinite value. Without it, you have no chance at heaven. With it, all you have to do is God’s will to get to heaven.

So if you get the sacraments, you are infinitely more likely to get to heaven then if you don’t. Its not guaranteed of course, but you are at least in the game. Without the sacraments, your chances to get to heaven are nil, unless you fall into the special category where you were either physically denied the sacraments you wanted to recieve or if you were completely ignorant of their need. (neither case applies to you). If you don’t believe this, go read John chapter 3 where you must be born of water (baptism) and spirit (confirmation) and John chapter 6 where you need to eat Jesus’ body and drink his blood (the eucharist) to gain eternal life.

 

[brb2]

I think Mick has finally got the Catholic message on 1 WAY to SALVATION thru the CHURCH.

He is thinking it over now … all its glory, and desire to encorporate him within its Universal extent.

Mick … welcome to the Catholic Church. Sign up for RCIA

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Being “saved” gives you a chance at heaven, if you cooperate with saving grace. So it has infinite value. Without it, you have no chance at heaven. With it, all you have to do is God’s will to get to heaven.

So Jesus doesn’t actually “save” anyone! Instead “saved” people are those who cooperate with the “saving” graces! Jesus doesn’t (or didn’t) DO THE SAVING, He only made salvation possible for the good people who cooperate?

So if you get the sacraments, you are infinitely more likely to get to heaven then if you don’t.

How can this be? Are the sacraments magical?

Its not guaranteed of course, but you are at least in the game. Without the sacraments, your chances to get to heaven are nil, unless you fall into the special category where you were either physically denied the sacraments you wanted to recieve or if you were completely ignorant of their need. (neither case applies to you).

It sounds like a game in which no one can really know all of the rules! It sounds rather legalistic to me!

If you don’t believe this, go read John chapter 3 where you must be born of water (baptism) and spirit (confirmation) and John chapter 6 where you need to eat Jesus’ body and drink his blood (the eucharist) to gain eternal life.

Well, if the bible is allowed to interpret the bible, you might be misinterpreting these passages. No one is saved by following the law, salvation is a free gift for all who trust in the finished work of Jesus. See Romans 4:1-6, Eph. 2:1-10, John 3:16-21

 

[paul_c]

Quote:Originally Posted by paul c
Being “saved” gives you a chance at heaven, if you cooperate with saving grace. So it has infinite value. Without it, you have no chance at heaven. With it, all you have to do is God’s will to get to heaven.

Of course Jesus saved us. Without him, there is no chance for heaven. He just didn’t save us unconditionally. We need to come to follow him of our own free will, turning away from sin and doing his will. So you are right when you say he made salvation possible for those good people who cooperate with his love.

Quote:Originally Posted by paul c So if you get the sacraments, you are infinitely more likely to get to heaven then if you don’t.

Well, in fact they are more than magical, they are miraculous. Jesus instituted them as physical links to the spiritual world. We take physical action and get spiritual grace. Learn about them. They will be your salvation. You can start with the Catechism: scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm

Quote:Originally Posted by paul c Its not guaranteed of course, but you are at least in the game. Without the sacraments, your chances to get to heaven are nil, unless you fall into the special category where you were either physically denied the sacraments you wanted to recieve or if you were completely ignorant of their need. (neither case applies to you).

Again, take the time to learn about them. Its not a game, nor is it legalistic. Its relatively simple actually. If you desire to gain God’s graces, you partake of the sacraments. When you get baptized, you are forgiven all previous sins, you become a member of the church and you gain the necessary grace to save you. If you partake in the eucharist, you gain God’s presence within, leading you to holiness. If you get confirmed, you gain the gifts of the holy spirit. If you sin, you can regain the graces you lost through the sacrament of reconciliation. In each of these cases, you are taking a physical action to demonstrate your intentions and you are rewarded with grace for doing so.

Quote:Originally Posted by paul c If you don’t believe this, go read John chapter 3 where you must be born of water (baptism) and spirit (confirmation) and John chapter 6 where you need to eat Jesus’ body and drink his blood (the eucharist) to gain eternal life.

The bible is a book. it can’t intepret anything. You interpret the bible. Salvation is a free gift. But that is not a synonym for eternal life, nor is a one time for all action. Our entire lives are journeys either toward or away from God and that journey is comprised of millions of decisions that test our choices. To gain eternal life, you need to be persistent and consistent in choosing to do what God wills for you , even when it is not what you will for yourself. But God is very merciful. He allows us to change our path and head toward eternal life with him at any point, even at the moment of our death, if we are willling to reach out to him sacramentally.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

The bible is a book. it can’t intepret anything. You interpret the bible. Salvation is a free gift. But that is not a synonym for eternal life, nor is a one time for all action. Our entire lives are journeys either toward or away from God and that journey is comprised of millions of decisions that test our choices. To gain eternal life, you need to be persistent and consistent in choosing to do what God wills for you , even when it is not what you will for yourself. But God is very merciful. He allows us to change our path and head toward eternal life with him at any point, even at the moment of our death, if we are willling to reach out to him sacramentally.

Hi Paul,

I don’t mean to offend you, but you have enormous faith in your religion, its sacraments, and your ability to cooperate (avoid sin and do what you must do for your salvation). It would be much better if your enormous faith were placed in something WORTHY of your faith–the Savior, Jesus Christ, who has done everything required to save your soul…if you will only trust in Him, and Him alone for your salvation. Let me show you just two passages to demonstrate that the object of our faith must be Jesus, and not all these other things you’ve been so trusting of, for your salvation:

Luke 18:9-14
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Luke 23:39-43
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

---

The biblical good news (the gospel) is not legalism, but grace, which comes from the God of mercy. Jesus came here to save the unrighteous–sinners like you and me, not a bunch of righteous followers of the law. If we must earn our way to heaven by our own righteous cooperation with God, then that is not good news, and thus it cannot be the biblical gospel. Jesus is worthy. Like the men in the two passages above who realized that their only hope is Jesus and His mercy, we also can trust in Him alone for the forgiveness of our sins and to save us from what we all deserve. My trust is in Him! To God alone be the glory!

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul,

I don’t mean to offend you, but you have enormous faith in your religion, its sacraments, and your ability to cooperate (avoid sin and do what you must do for your salvation). It would be much better if your enormous faith were placed in something WORTHY of your faith–the Savior, Jesus Christ, who has done everything required to save your soul…if you will only trust in Him, and Him alone for your salvation. Let me show you just two passages to demonstrate that the object of our faith must be Jesus, and not all these other things you’ve been so trusting of, for your salvation:

Luke 18:9-14
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Luke 23:39-43
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

---

The biblical good news (the gospel) is not legalism, but grace, which comes from the God of mercy. Jesus came here to save the unrighteous–sinners like you and me, not a bunch of righteous followers of the law. If we must earn our way to heaven by our own righteous cooperation with God, then that is not good news, and thus it cannot be the biblical gospel. Jesus is worthy. Like the men in the two passages above who realized that their only hope is Jesus and His mercy, we also can trust in Him alone for the forgiveness of our sins and to save us from what we all deserve. My trust is in Him! To God alone be the glory!

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul,

I don’t mean to offend you, but you have enormous faith in your religion, its sacraments, and your ability to cooperate (avoid sin and do what you must do for your salvation). It would be much better if your enormous faith were placed in something WORTHY of your faith–the Savior, Jesus Christ, who has done everything required to save your soul…if you will only trust in Him, and Him alone for your salvation. Let me show you just two passages to demonstrate that the object of our faith must be Jesus, and not all these other things you’ve been so trusting of, for your salvation:

Our faith is in Jesus and its not that we believe in our ability to cooperate with his grace as much as our confidence that he will mercifully accept us back after we fail if we contritely ask him to through the sacrament of reconciliation. These two passages you quote support this view completely.

Luke 18:9-14
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

This isn’t about faith in Jesus as much as it is about the need to be humble before God, who is infinitely better than we are. We humble ourselves and confess our sins in reconciliation, just as the tax collector does in this passage. And like the tax collector, we know we need God’s mercy to gain entrance into heaven. We never presume that just because we believe, we are saved forever.

Luke 23:39-43
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Again, St. Dismas, the good thief, is saved because he contritely confessed his sins and asked God for mercy, just as we do in reconciliation. St. Dismas is also an example of someone who wanted to be baptized but was physically unable to.

The biblical good news (the gospel) is not legalism, but grace, which comes from the God of mercy. Jesus came here to save the unrighteous–sinners like you and me, not a bunch of righteous followers of the law. If we must earn our way to heaven by our own righteous cooperation with God, then that is not good news, and thus it cannot be the biblical gospel. Jesus is worthy. Like the men in the two passages above who realized that their only hope is Jesus and His mercy, we also can trust in Him alone for the forgiveness of our sins and to save us from what we all deserve. My trust is in Him! To God alone be the glory!

Why isn’t righteously cooperating with God, good news? Its all about Love. Those that love God will want to do his will. Those that want to get to Heaven without doing God’s will will be highly disappointed.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Our faith is in Jesus and its not that we believe in our ability to cooperate with his grace as much as our confidence that he will mercifully accept us back after we fail if we contritely ask him to through the sacrament of reconciliation. These two passages you quote support this view completely.

I disagree. Once you’ve accepted that it is YOUR righteousness that is required to save you and not Christ’s righteousness that saves you, then you’ve already demonstrated that your whole project is about YOUR righteousness and YOUR good works, rather than God’s mercy and the good works of the Savior. The whole point about the tax collector was that he had no confidence in being righteous enough, cooperating enough or doing enough good works. The tax collector came to God empty-handed, and only empty hands can receive the hand of Jesus. The Pharisee, came to God with hands filled with his own good works, and he was rejected.

This isn’t about faith in Jesus as much as it is about the need to be humble before God, who is infinitely better than we are. We humble ourselves and confess our sins in reconciliation, just as the tax collector does in this passage. And like the tax collector, we know we need God’s mercy to gain entrance into heaven. We never presume that just because we believe, we are saved forever.

There is no real faith in Jesus without the humble belief that we are unworthy sinners who deserve to go to hell. That is the point of the story. The Pharisee was described in some detail to provide the contrast. And God saves His sheep forever:

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

Again, St. Dismas, the good thief, is saved because he contritely confessed his sins and asked God for mercy, just as we do in reconciliation. St. Dismas is also an example of someone who wanted to be baptized but was physically unable to.

Was he a “good thief” or a forgiven thief? Was he saved because of something good that he did? I think he was saved because of how good God is. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with his own goodness, and it had everything to do with God’s loving mercy on him.

Why isn’t righteously cooperating with God, good news?

Because not one of us is righteously cooperating with God. Not one of us deserves to be saved, for we are all unrighteous sinners.

Its all about Love. Those that love God will want to do his will.

Yes! It is all about how great God’s love is!

Those that want to get to Heaven without doing God’s will will be highly disappointed.

Yes, and those who want to get into heaven by cooperating good enough will also be highly disappointed. With God, “pretty good” isn’t good enough. His standard in terms of goodness, cooperation, charity, and love, is perfection in every detail…at every moment.

 

[paul_c]

Mick,
This is always a big discussion between Catholics and Protestants/Evangelicals:

Catholics believe that we need to cooperate with God’s graces to get to heaven, while Evangelicals / Protestants believe that it is all about Faith in an all merciful God.

Protestants like to Accuse Catholics of trying to work their way to heaven while Catholics accuse Protestants/ Evangelicals of easy believism, with no personal responsibilities.

Well, devout Catholics honestly do what they do for the love of God, not for any reward. We trust in God’s mercy, just as you do.

At the same time, I believe that A devout Protestant/ Evangelical will also try to do God’s will out of love. I believe that most do not believe that they can apostacize and still go to heaven and that they recognize the requirement for Christians to love God and Neighbor, just as Catholics do.

In the end, the most obvious difference between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians is belief in the role of the sacraments in the economy of Salvation. That, and the fact that Catholics trust the Church to teach Faith, morality and the ways to enhance our experinece with God, while nonCatholic Christisans trust in their own traditions. Catholics believe that theirs is the one true way to heaven, but of course, so does everyone else. The challenge then is to sort out who is right. This is best done by looking at the historical genesis of each belief system. I know mine started with the Apostles. Do you know where yours started?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

This is best done by looking at the historical genesis of each belief system.   I know mine started with the Apostles.  Do you know where yours started?

Hi Paul,

I don’t think that it is a bad idea to study the history of religious systems, but as we’ve seen from the saved tax collector in Luke 18, and the saved thief in Luke 23, the study of church history was not the important and decisive factor in these two becoming saved. My own salvation had nothing to do with any study of church history either. God can, and does, use a great number of ways to guide His sheep to Jesus. The Catholic church is not the ark of salvation that it claims to be. No man can serve two masters. There are numerous ways that God uses to bring sinners to Jesus, but Jesus is the only way to the Father, and to say that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church is offensive to God because it blatantly contradicts His Holy Word.

It is an honor and a pleasure to discuss these things with you, Paul!

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul,

I don’t think that it is a bad idea to study the history of religious systems, but as we’ve seen from the saved tax collector in Luke 18, and the saved thief in Luke 23, the study of church history was not the important and decisive factor in these two becoming saved. My own salvation had nothing to do with any study of church history either. God can, and does, use a great number of ways to guide His sheep to Jesus. The Catholic church is not the ark of salvation that it claims to be. No man can serve two masters. There are numerous ways that God uses to bring sinners to Jesus, but Jesus is the only way to the Father, and to say that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church is offensive to God because it blatantly contradicts His Holy Word.

It is an honor and a pleasure to discuss these things with you, Paul!

Mick,
Thanks for the kind words.

Let’s explore your post a little deeper.

First of all, I recognize a difference between being saved and Going to Heaven, but I think you do not. Is that true? I believe that being saved means that you are Made New and forgiven for your former sins. I do not believe that this guarantees that you will go to heaven, merely that you are starting off with a clean slate. What you do with that new life is what ultimately matters in whether you go to heaven or hell. This is what all there are all those scriptural exhortations to live the Christian life, love your enemies, persevere in good works and the reason there is a judgement. If what we do in life doesn’t matter and its all a matter of faith, there would be no need for moral teachings or for a final judgement like the one described in Matthew 25: 31-46. Theree both the sheeps and the goats call out to Jesus as Lord showing they are beleivers, but they are separated by how they treated the least of their brothers, the ones who reacted with acts of mercy and love to heaven and those that did not to Hell. Also, note that when Jesus healed and forgave sins, he often told the recipient, " Go but sin no more. " This clearly supports the view that being saved is not eternal, but is actually a new beginning for your journey to or away from God. And by the way, every person’s conscience steers them away from sin, so it must be important to do that, right?

Now it is not true that the Tax Collector in Matthew 18 is justified by his humble confession, while the Pharisee merely brags about his percieved goodness. That does not guarantee the Tax collector will go to heaven, though. Merely that he had become justified. No where in the parable does Jesus imply that the tax collector will go to heaven. You have extrapolated that, as you did when you assumed he was a follower of Jesus. Jesus never mentions that the Tax collector has faith in the redeeming power of Christ because at that point, Jesus had not been crucified yet, right? Don’t read more into the parable than what is there. The Tax collector put himself right before God because he admitted his faults and was humble before God while the pharisee did the opposite, arrogantly bragging about his goodness before God. This is a manifestation of the beatitude " Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

As for St. Dismas, the “forgiven thief”, let’s review what he did to “earn” heaven. He demonstrated heartfelt love for Jesus in defending him against the other thief. He also confessed his sins and asked for Jesus mercy and forgiveness. And he proclaimed belief in Jesus’ kingdom. Jesus absolved him of his sins and so St. Dismas died in the state of grace and hence was rewarded with heaven. So you see, he took all the steps that a devout Catholic would, albiet in a short period of time and under great duress. There are many lessons in this short passage. God will be merciful if we come to him, even in the last moments of our lives, but we must come to him. He did not force Dismas to follow him, Dismas did it willingly. Now as for “earning” heaven, well Dismas couldn’t earn heaven without Jesus’ sacrifice. But his actions had undeniable merit, for which he was rewarded.

The teaching that all come to salvation through the Catholic church is not a blatant contradiction of God’s word, by which I assume you mean the Bible. If you are getting God’s word through the bible, you are by definition getting salvation through the Catholic Church, which through divine inspiration created that Bible. Jesus established the Catholic Church specifically to teach men about the Gospel and to administer the sacraments for him. No man on earth can learn about Jesus without the influence of the Catholic Church. Its not that God couldn’t have put his teachings into the minds of all men without the Church, he is omnipotent afterall. but its that he chose to do it this way. Just as he chose to become incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ because men relate better to other men.

As for your salvation, why do you think the Holy Spirit led you to these pages?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi Paul,

I don’t think that it is a bad idea to study the history of religious systems, but as we’ve seen from the saved tax collector in Luke 18, and the saved thief in Luke 23, the study of church history was not the important and decisive factor in these two becoming saved. My own salvation had nothing to do with any study of church history either. God can, and does, use a great number of ways to guide His sheep to Jesus. The Catholic church is not the ark of salvation that it claims to be. No man can serve two masters. There are numerous ways that God uses to bring sinners to Jesus, but Jesus is the only way to the Father, and to say that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church is offensive to God because it blatantly contradicts His Holy Word.

It is an honor and a pleasure to discuss these things with you, Paul!

Hi Mick.

you are very confused because of what you have learned about Jesus. how can you suggest that the works of Christ is contrary to what Jesus tought.

Did Jesus find a Church? how can you simply ignore the Church as if this Church is not necessary for the Salvation of men?

did Jesus give instructions to the Church on how to teach all men? yes, He did.
what are those Teachings Mick?

the CC has OT given by Jesus and the Apostles. why She has such an authority? because she was found by Christ. how can you even suggest that the Church is not important? the reason we love the CC so much is because she is a work of Christ, she is the Ark of Salvation to all who wants to know God and His Son.

the Church is the New Israel. to understand the Church, first you must come to an understanding of God and his people, the Jews.

put your bias towards the Church aside for a while and go back and study the history of the Jews. i guarantee you, you will ended up in the Church Jesus found.

protestants believe that because some people sinned in the CC, the CC stopped being the Church that Jesus found. this is a complete lie. God will never abandon His Church because He is the One who found it. no matter how many will sin in His Church. He always rescues His Church by bringing holy sheperds. just think how many sinned in Israel. did God ever abandoned His people. no, He didnt. and that is what the Church is. this is His Church and she will be here until the ends of time.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Mick,
Thanks for the kind words.

Let’s explore your post a little deeper.

First of all, I recognize a difference between being saved and Going to Heaven, but I think you do not. Is that true? I believe that being saved means that you are Made New and forgiven for your former sins. I do not believe that this guarantees that you will go to heaven, merely that you are starting off with a clean slate. What you do with that new life is what ultimately matters in whether you go to heaven or hell.

Hi Paul,

If being forgiven (saved) is a temporary condition based on what we DO with our clean slate, then several big huge problems emerge:

1. Where in the bible do we find that salvation is a temporary thing, and what is a temporarily saved person saved from?
2. If CC sacraments only temporarily save, then the Catholic sacraments are useless. No one who is water-baptized in the CC and takes CC communion is any better off because of it.
3. If Jesus only makes salvation possible but He doesn’t actually save anyone, then I must save myself by what I do. But that is completely against the teachings of the bible.
4. If we must earn our salvation by what we do, then we have good reason to boast concerning our salvation. But that is completely against the teachings of the bible.
5. If we must save ourselves by what we do, then all of our focus in this life will be on ourselves and on our own good deeds, and AWAY FROM JESUS.

We’re getting way off the topic with all of this, but it is an interesting discussion!

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Hi Mick.

you are very confused because of what you have learned about Jesus. how can you suggest that the works of Christ is contrary to what Jesus tought.

Hi wisdomseeker,

I didn’t understand this question. Did I suggest that the works of Christ are contrary to what Jesus taught?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi wisdomseeker,

I didn’t understand this question. Did I suggest that the works of Christ are contrary to what Jesus taught?

You have been. you are constantly denying the works of Christ.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

You have been. you are constantly denying the works of Christ.

Can you give me a few examples?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Can you give me a few examples?

You deny the Church. you the Virgin Mary. you deny OT. you deny Succession of the Apostles. you deny the Sacraments. and so forth. i could on and on.

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul,

If being forgiven (saved) is a temporary condition based on what we DO with our clean slate, then several big huge problems emerge:

1. Where in the bible do we find that salvation is a temporary thing, and what is a temporarily saved person saved from?

There are many places in scripture that say you must persevere in good works to gain eternal life.
Here’s an example from Romans 2: 5-10:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek

1. If CC sacraments only temporarily save, then the Catholic sacraments are useless. No one who is water-baptized in the CC and takes CC communion is any better off because of it.

The Catholic sacraments allow you to have your sins forgiven and to start out fresh each time you partake of them. Furthermore, the increased grace recieved makes you more and more capable of living a holy life. This is hardly worthless and of course your are better off for it. You give grace and your sins forgiven. Why would you think that’s worthless.

1. If Jesus only makes salvation possible but He doesn’t actually save anyone, then I must save myself by what I do. But that is completely against the teachings of the bible.

How do you figure that Jesus doesn’t save anyone? He saves everyone who is saved. We simply have to cooperate by following his example. And if we fail and ask his foregiveness through the sacrament of reconciliation, he will not turn us away. Do you really think you can go to heaven without doing the good works he calls on us to do? Do you really think anyone will be in heaven who hasn’t learned to love and who doesn’t follow the ten commandments and the beatitudes, just becasue they profess to beleive?

1. If we must earn our salvation by what we do, then we have good reason to boast concerning our salvation. But that is completely against the teachings of the bible.

We have no reason to boast before God, who made us, forgave us our sins, and gave us the necessary grace to be saved. In fact, Catholics know that when we die, we will need to ask for Christ’s mercy.

1. If we must save ourselves by what we do, then all of our focus in this life will be on ourselves and on our own good deeds, and AWAY FROM JESUS.

Well, that’s not how a Catholic thinks about it. We don’t do good works to earn a reward, we do it out of love for God and Jesus. And honestly, a Catholic virtually never thinks about whether they are going to heaven. You don’t hear Catholics talking about being saved. You hear devout Catholics talking about love and service.

We’re getting way off the topic with all of this, but it is an interesting discussion!

Mick, I’m not in the least bit concerned about getting off topic. My goal here is simply to help you understand how a Catholic thinks and what the Catholic church teaches about salvation.

 

[brb2]

Mick …

Have you attended a Mass yet ? Did you find it illuminating ? What were your impressions, c/w your church ?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

You deny the Church. you the Virgin Mary. you deny OT. you deny Succession of the Apostles. you deny the Sacraments. and so forth. i could on and on.

Hi wisdomseeker,

I have never denied the church, the virgin Mary, the OT, or the sacraments. I have seen nothing in the bible that tells us anything about the existence of a papal office or a papal succession that started with the apostle Peter. Am I being unreasonable?