INSIGHTS ON ATHEISM

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Why would I volunteer at a soup kitchen? It makes me feel better about myself. I get that nice warm feeling inside from doing something nice. Same reason i eat chocolate. That nice warm feeling.

You scoundrel! You’re a Christian after all pretending to be an atheist!

After all, when was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen?
 
What is murder? The taking of someone’s life, right? There are countless examples of when it’s perfectly moral by today’s standards to take someone’s life. A police officer shooting an armed assailant, is one I can think of off the top of my head.

This is murder or self defense?

Whew!
 
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I recently was in discussion with a friend of mine whose sister had just died of cancer. My friends comfort to her sister was direct and profound. She comforted her sister by gently telling her not to worry about dying since she was surely going to have the reward that she had worked for her all her life. I don’t believe any currently living individual can speak to the specifics but this statement makes sense and seems to me to have inherent justice. If you remember in Dante’s Comedy; Inferno those in hell were meted punishment directly associated with their grave sin in life. Maybe it is so for the athiest. Just as the athiests rejects God in this life, God will reject the athiest in the next and the athiest will recieve the reward for which he has worked all his life.
 
GABir

Welcome to this forum.

Just as the athiests rejects God in this life, God will reject the athiest in the next and the athiest will recieve the reward for which he has worked all his life.

I recently heard this remark or something like it, but have no idea whether it is an original thought for many people or whether they are quoting a common source. Can you help me in this regard?

Personally, I think there are many kinds of atheists, as there are many kinds of religious people. Some atheists are sad. Some are angry. Some are cocky. Some are ungrateful to the Creator. And so forth. But this would be true of many religious people too because we are all weaklings and sinners. The advantage of those who make a profession of faith is that they have at hand the means by which to save themselves from perdition. Grace is the gift that all of us pray for. Amazing grace, if possible. Ask and you will receive, says our Lord.

If we refuse to ask, will we receive?

But I am still convinced that there are only two kinds of people in the world: those who know they are searching for God, and those who do not know they are searching for God.

Even the atheists who visit this forum know they are searching for something, or they would not be here brandishing their weapons.
 
Carl said:
What is murder? The taking of someone’s life, right? There are countless examples of when it’s perfectly moral by today’s standards to take someone’s life. A police officer shooting an armed assailant, is one I can think of off the top of my head.

This is murder or self defense?

Whew!

taking a life is taking a life, no matter what the motivating factors are.

Going to answer my query about moral decline?
 
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Carl:
After all, when was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen?
Since there is no “atheist organization,” I wouldn’t expect to see anything like that. I’m sure there is charitable work done by other humanist organizations. (I guess, I’m not going to bother to google it)
From Gabir
She comforted her sister by gently telling her not to worry about dying since she was surely going to have the reward that she had worked for her all her life.
What a wonderful security blanket.
From Carl
Some atheists are sad. Some are angry. Some are cocky. Some are ungrateful to the Creator. And so forth.
It’s rather hard, and silly, to be ungrateful to something that you honestly and truely don’t think exists.
From Carl
Amazing grace, if possible. Ask and you will receive, says our Lord.
I asked many times during the year or so I was doubting my faith. I heard nothing, recieved nothing, felt nothing. But that’s for another thread I suppose.
From Carl
Even the atheists who visit this forum know they are searching for something, or they would not be here brandishing their weapons.
Every time I hear somone say that I laugh. What am I supposed to do when someone starts spouting off about me in derogatory ways and or is just misunderstanding who I am? Should I ignore them or should I try to correct their mistakes. Besides, nothing works the mind like a wonderful debate about evolution or god not existing. Maybe I’m just a saddist, though.
 
Please give me some examples of the “moral liberal rot,” how our culture has turned into or is turning into a “moral sewer,” and a few examples of “decline in public or private morals.” Since you think i’m “very young” and won’t be able to grasp such complicated issues, maybe you can reveal them in a story along the lines of Dr Seuss.

Surely you jest.

I would have to write a huge book to fairly document my thesis … a book that apparently you would not like since I don’t do Dr. Seuss. Also, I don’t like it when students ask me to do their homework for them. Do the research yourself. Start with summaries of the Supreme Court decisions since 1960. Or watch a few old movies and look at how well protected from moral filth children once compared to how well protected they are today.

Returning to my thesis: you are very young, because you have yet to figure out the difference between natural law and social conventions. You think that because a society sets a standard different from what it was 100 years ago, that what was wrong then might now be right. No; if it was truly wrong then, it is still truly wrong, even though it has become a social convention to justify it.

In other words, slavery is against the natural law always and everywhere. In the American South it became “right” only as a result of a social convention. It was still wrong. And it would still be wrong even if the Supreme Court ruled today that the ban on slavery deprived rich people of their “freedom” to own slaves.

Until about thirty years ago abortion was universally considered immoral and contrary to the natural law. Over a hundred years ago famous feminists argued forcefully against abortion. Today abortion is protected and encouraged by a social convention (Roe v Wade) and many feminists who have repudiated the natural law.

Genocide has always been wrong, though by World War II many Germans began to think it might be right when Hitler pointed his gun at their heads and ordered them to participate.

Finally, the concept of natural law was firmly embedded in American law by the Founding Fathers when they insisted that all men are created with inaliable rights, and that among them are the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Moreover, all the natural law advocates of that period, with the likely exception of Thomas Paine, viewed the natural law as founded by the Creator.

If you really want to pursue this theme in some depth, consult Charles Rice’s 50 Questions on the Natural Law.
 
Please give me some examples of the “moral liberal rot,” how our culture has turned into or is turning into a “moral sewer,” and a few examples of “decline in public or private morals.” Since you think i’m “very young” and won’t be able to grasp such complicated issues, maybe you can reveal them in a story along the lines of Dr Seuss.

Well it’s not Dr. Seuss but it’s not terribly complicated either - start here:

Revolution and Counter-Revolution

Atheism and anti-theism are hardly new, they start with a rejection of just authority. Men are often prideful creatures but I remember a saying “Those who will not humble themselves will be humiliated.”
I was an athiest for a long time, I understand the thinking.

About 90% of it is pride, the rest is made up of anger, fear and cynicism. These days an unhealthy dose of public school indoctrination usually accelerates the process, sprinkle in a liberal dose of moral relativism courtesy of the mainstream media and you get hopeless, directionless, groundless.
I’ve heard it described as “standing on shifting sands”, I think that might be from CS Lewis, but I’m not sure - just the quote stuck with me not the context.
It all becomes about me - worshipping at the altar of ‘personal fulfillment’. Toss in a little idolotry and I find my new God - MONEY, POSSESSIONS!! After all there’s nowhere to go from here so might as well make the best of it right? And whose to judge how I get mine? I might fear man’s prison, but I certainly do not fear judgment.
 
I tried to be an atheist, but common sense overcame me.😃

Now I am a Catholic, and I LOVE THIS CHURCH! Catholicism is simple enough for an illiterate jungle dweller to understand, but deep enough to challenge the most erudite. I’m reading “…the Way to the Dwelling of Light” by Brother Guy Consolmagno, S.J., an astronomer at the Vatican Observatory in Italy and Arizona. The subtitle is “How Physics Illuminates Creation.” One of the chapters is “How using mathematics to explain reality is like using words to describe God.” Another is, “What scientific discovery and prayer have in common.” Not that I’m smart enough to understand all that Brother Consolmagno says, but I love it that HE understands it! He has degrees in physics (MIT) and Planetary Science (UofArizona.) And he took the Eucharist with him on an expedition to the Arctic Circle (in another book). Now that was really smart!

JMJ Jay
 
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paul2:
taking a life is taking a life, no matter what the motivating factors are.

Going to answer my query about moral decline?
I wish more atheists and agnostics felt the way you do, so we could put an end to abortion and doctor assisted suicide. Glad to learn you are opposed to these things 😃 .
 
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Carl:
Even the atheists who visit this forum know they are searching for something, or they would not be here brandishing their weapons.
Are the Xians posting over at internet infidels searching for something from athesim? I post here because of the complete and utter bigotry against atheists I have noticed.
 
Carl said:
Please give me some examples of the “moral liberal rot,” how our culture has turned into or is turning into a “moral sewer,” and a few examples of “decline in public or private morals.” Since you think i’m “very young” and won’t be able to grasp such complicated issues, maybe you can reveal them in a story along the lines of Dr Seuss.

Surely you jest.

I would have to write a huge book to fairly document my thesis … a book that apparently you would not like since I don’t do Dr. Seuss. Also, I don’t like it when students ask me to do their homework for them. Do the research yourself. Start with summaries of the Supreme Court decisions since 1960. Or watch a few old movies and look at how well protected from moral filth children once compared to how well protected they are today.

Returning to my thesis: you are very young, because you have yet to figure out the difference between natural law and social conventions. You think that because a society sets a standard different from what it was 100 years ago, that what was wrong then might now be right. No; if it was truly wrong then, it is still truly wrong, even though it has become a social convention to justify it.

In other words, slavery is against the natural law always and everywhere. In the American South it became “right” only as a result of a social convention. It was still wrong. And it would still be wrong even if the Supreme Court ruled today that the ban on slavery deprived rich people of their “freedom” to own slaves.

Who made the assertion about moral rot? If you did Carl, then you should be providing the proof of your assertion as you are making the claim.

If Slavery was always truely wrong, why does the OT say so much about how to treat slaves?

Why do we no longer stone or put people to death? The bible demands this, in several places (Working on the sabath, Unrulely sons, Adulterers, Homosexuals, Whiches, Blasphemers, Sexual deviants, etc…). Out morals have evolved, pure and simple.
 
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Monarchy:
Are the Xians posting over at internet infidels searching for something from athesim? I post here because of the complete and utter bigotry against atheists I have noticed.
Let’s be civil. We are Christians, not Xians.

And since when is standing up for what we believe in “complete and utter bigotry”?

I’m willing to die rather than renounce my faith. I’ve yet to meet an atheist who is willing to die rather than renounce his or her faith. And it is faith, you know, whether you believe it or not. In fact, it takes a lot more faith to be an atheist than it takes to be a Christian.
 
The Barrister:
Let’s be civil. We are Christians, not Xians.

And since when is standing up for what we believe in “complete and utter bigotry”?

I’m willing to die rather than renounce my faith. I’ve yet to meet an atheist who is willing to die rather than renounce his or her faith. And it is faith, you know, whether you believe it or not. In fact, it takes a lot more faith to be an atheist than it takes to be a Christian.
It’s is perfectly okay to shorten Christian to Xian. the X stands for the first letter in the greek spelling of Christ. This why you see things like Merry X-mas. Contrary to popular belief you are not X-ing out Christ.

ATHEISM IS THE ABSENCE OF GOD BELIEF!!!

I am sorry for shouting but I have said this about 5 times and I am ignored each time. And I am talking about what you say about Atheism and Atheists. Not defending your faith
 
Surely you jest.
Code:
I most defiantly do not. When someone asserts something, such as “That mentality “liberal rot” of moral relativity] is making a moral sewer of our culture,” I expect them to back it up with some facts. I find your assertion that I am young based on my mere disagreement with you to be insulting, and logically baseless.
You seem to think of the decline in morals in society is a bad thing. You say that the Supreme Court decisions since 1960 are proof of a decline in morality and you mention that for some reason, modern entertainment is full of “moral filth” which was not present in “old” movies. These statements have given me a glimpse of your morality and I find that they are not based on some sort of “natural law,” but on Catholic doctrine, which is to say the “morals of your society.”
Code:
Morals have evolved along side the human race. This is called “social evolution.” The morals of societies are well documented, and it can be easily shown how morals change over time. Social evolution explains why morals are different amongst the many cultures on this planet, and why morals change over time. 

It seems that we are all blessed with a conscience. This conscience allows us to determine between “morally acceptable” and “immoral” actions. You attribute this to your God, whose morals are firm and unchanging. This would be a good answer, but there are a few problems. One problem being, if these “natural law” morals are in fact divinely inspired in all humans, you would expect to see them from the onslaught of the human race. The fact is that you do not. You see a different set of morals for each group of people that do share some morals in common (which is to be expected) yet there are differences. The Aztecs held the notion that it is wrong to murder each other, but it was perfectly ok to sacrifice enemy prisoners to appease their gods. The Egyptians had a set of morals where it was morally acceptable to have slaves. There have been slaves since the dawn of human civilization in one form or another. Slavery has existed in cultures from the Aztecs to the Greeks, to the noble land owners of England, and slavery is even mentioned as acceptable (debated) in your Bible. It wasn’t until the 1800s when people started to decide that slavery was immoral. The question I pose is if slavery is “truly wrong” based on some sort of divinely inspired natural law, why would your God choose to tell us now? Why wouldn’t the people way back when realize that “something isn’t right with slavery?” This is an example of social evolution.

I’m not going to argue that abortion is a moral act, as I personally am against it. However, I will argue against your stance that abortion is immoral because of “natural law.” Abortion induced by herbs or manipulation was commonly used as a method of birth control in ancient Egypt, Greece, and Rome, and probably earlier. It wasn’t until later, in the 18th or 19th century that abortions became a taboo thus being outlawed. The motivating factor in this was that in a male dominated society, it was against their best interests to let women have the sole choice of whether or not to have a child. By the 1970s abortion had been legalized in most European countries, and in 1973 (and reaffirmed in 1992) a Supreme Court decision legalized it in America. This is in congruent to the rise in social power of the woman where she instead of being the “home maker” whose sole responsibility was to make babies, was granted equal rights that men had. This again is more evidence that morals come not from a deity, but have evolved along side the human race.

Genocide has not always been wrong. Wars have been a part of humanity since we settled down in areas. Fighting for hunting territory between rivaling tribes, and with fighting such actions as genocide entered into the picture. From the early times of one tribe wiping out another tribe, to more recent occurrences such as the Spanish Inquisition, and what befouled the Jews and Gypsies by the Nazis. In each culture it was morally acceptable, but since other parts of the world it was not, we determined that our morals were better and we had to stop the mass murdering of the Jews. Global morality is something new that is, as our communication becomes better we are able to act as a single global society. Through reasoning, we are able to determine what actions are moral.

As to the concept of natural law from God being firmly embedded in American law by the founding fathers, they knew that there are Morals that everyone should have; Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. However, it does not take a god to tell you that. Luckily we’ve all developed a brain that’s capable of coming to that conclusion ourselves.
I appologize for the crappy formating. if you want, i can post the .doc.
 
Chris W:
I wish more atheists and agnostics felt the way you do, so we could put an end to abortion and doctor assisted suicide. Glad to learn you are opposed to these things 😃 .
I wouldn’t go that far. I think abortions are ok up to a month or so, as the “baby” inside, is nothing more than a cluster of replicating cells. However, after that i believe is when life starts. It is my personal opinion that instead of abortions, the woman should take responsibility for her actions (having unprotected sex) and carry the baby to term and put the child up for adoption. I feel strongly that way, as i myself “could have” been aborted. Luckily my biological mother opted for putting me up for adoption.

Doctor assisted suicides, on the other hand, i am in favor of. If i was in terrible pain with only 3 months to live, i’d rather end it than suffer any longer. I’d rather my mother commit suicide than suffer in pain, too. However, personally i’d never consider, because of the “what ifs.” What if 3 months from now, they somehow develop a cure for your condition.
 
According to previous posts of our atheist friends, all morality is built on the shifting sands of time.

It appears from this argument that evolution is the be-all and end-all of moral reckoning. In other words, slavery, not so long ago made wrong and outlawed, could now be made right and legalized if we evolved in that direction? Will the atheist please tell me if you agree with that thesis, because it sure sounds for all the world that you do. You deny the natural law as a basis for morality and substitute evolution as the moral basis. We have in your opinion, I suppose, advanced beyond religion. Sounds suspiciously like Nietzsche, the “God is dead” philosopher, one of whose books is ominously titled: Beyond Good and Evil.

As to the relevance of evolution as be-all and end-all, this quote from Chesterton will shed some light, I hope:

“Evolution … (at this word will you please bow your heads twenty-seven times or go through some other sacerdotal rite) however fascinating or even inspiring as a picture of the facts of the past, is totally useless as a moral code…. A great scientific theory has a dignity of its own. There is no reason why it should profess to be a piece of ethical or social advice. Nor, I think, do people try to make new moralities out of any other great scientific generalizations. I have never heard of the Law of Gravity adduced as a reason for knocking people down. I have never known the Circulation of the Blood offered as an excuse for bloodshed. I never knew running away from your wife called Centrifugal Force; or tearing her hair out called Capillary Attraction.” G.K. Chesterton, 1910

It is true that natural law gives us a built-in conscience. Yet men are corruptible by their nature. They lie to themselves more often than they lie to each other. Cain lied to himself when he plotted to kill Abel. God did not let him get away with the lie, and spoke to warn him of his peril (read the story). But Caine chose to believe his own lie, just as Adam and Eve had chosen before him to believe the lie that eating of the forbidden fruit would make them godlike. So murder was taboo right from the start. So were all the other sins known to our first parents, who disobeyed and passed down their penchant for disobeying to all future generations. The natural law did not cease to exist. It just came to be ignored and suppressed and ultimately, by today’s tribe of atheists, ridiculed.

Men learned to lie more viciously and became hardened against each other until savagery set in. Under such circumstances, slavery reared it ugly head, even among the Jews. But if you read the OT very carefully, you find among the Jews a less savage type of slavery than would be found among the Greeks and the Romans, for examples. They are to rest along with the Jews on the Sabbath. If murdered by their masters, their masters are to be punished. If they are maimed, they are to be set free. This does not excuse slavery, but it shows that by God’s grace the hardness of the Jews was more restrained than the hardness of many other tribes of mankind.

Here are some other lies many of the present generation have told themselves:

It is o.k. to kill the unborn.

It is o.k. to have sex with children (NAMBLA).

It is o.k. to use the foulest language in front of children, especially in the movies.

It is o.k. for men to marry other men, and women to marry other women.

It is o.k. to remove from the public sector all mention of God.

This is just the start of a very long list of lies that hardly any Americans told themselves back in the 1950’s. That’s why I suggested you go and look at summaries of the Supreme Court Cases since then. That’s why I suggested you look at some old movies, to see the love and respect that men and women had for children in those days. Love and respect compared to the filthy language and images we see routinely thrown at young people today, all in name of the right of Hollywood perverts to practice what are laughably called First Amendment freedoms.

O.K., I did do some of your homework for you after all. I’m not going to do any more. I have the sinking feeling it would be useless because you fellows have swallowed hook, line and sinker the lies of what someone a few posts back called the “Me first!” generation.

Tsk, tsk.
 
I was an athiest or secular humanist until 2 years ago, believe me I was not browsing Catholic message boards, the very suggestion would have paralyzed me with laughter and seemed utterly bizarre.
I doubt I knew there were Catholic or any other Christian message boards, I certainly wouldn’t have know the URL.
There is only one reason for an athiest to come here, he/she is doubting his faith, They are looking for something, they may not admit it, even to themselves but why else bother? An athiest or secular humanist,secure in the faith, wouldn’t bother with us
 
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Carl:
According to previous posts of our atheist friends, all morality is built on the shifting sands of time.

It appears from this argument that evolution is the be-all and end-all of moral reckoning.
You can stop here because Biological evolution != social evolution. As i’ve demonstrated, morality IS evolving. That is to say, morality is changing over time.

Now stop ranting and actually put up an argument instead of an assertion.
 
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