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Shibboleth
Guest
Carl said:
Please look back at post #256.
- Status
Please look back at post #256.
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Carl
Guest
You didn’t read your assignment from Genesis did you?
*3 After some time Cain brought some of his harvest and gave it as an offering to the Lord. 4 Then Abel brought the first lamb born to one of his sheep, killed it, and gave the best parts of it as an offering. The Lord was pleased with Abel and his offering, R14 5 but he rejected Cain and his offering. Cain became furious, and he scowled in anger.
6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why that scowl on your face? 7 If you had done the right thing, you would be smiling; F21 but because you have done evil, sin is crouching at your door. It wants to rule you, but you must overcome it.” *
The operative words are:
*If you had done the right thing, you would be smiling; *
Easy to read that God planted in Cain a conscience to understand the natural law. We know instinctively when we have done something wrong or right. This is why so many crimes are committed in the darknesss of night … we don’t want anyone to detect who we are and what we are doing. And we didn’t need a score card to tell us which acts were right and which were wrong.
As to your citing God’s commands to show no mercy to the enemies of the Jews, that was God’s judgment to make. God will show no mercy to some of us when we go to the underworld, where His justice will prevail. His mercy is extended as far as it can go, but it is limited. If the enemies of the Jews are sworn to exterminate the Jews, a race from which the Messiah would come, God has every right to protect His own people who will produce in time the birth of the Messiah.
Many times in history the very existence of the Jews was savagely threatened. Perhaps you heard about one great threat … the Holocaust. The savagery of the Germans was dealt a serious blow. Germany itself was divided between its conquerors … the spoils of war. God, it seems, came down on the right side in that war. The assault on Germany was ruthless, and the Germans have been quiet ever since.
*3 After some time Cain brought some of his harvest and gave it as an offering to the Lord. 4 Then Abel brought the first lamb born to one of his sheep, killed it, and gave the best parts of it as an offering. The Lord was pleased with Abel and his offering, R14 5 but he rejected Cain and his offering. Cain became furious, and he scowled in anger.
6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why that scowl on your face? 7 If you had done the right thing, you would be smiling; F21 but because you have done evil, sin is crouching at your door. It wants to rule you, but you must overcome it.” *
The operative words are:
*If you had done the right thing, you would be smiling; *
Easy to read that God planted in Cain a conscience to understand the natural law. We know instinctively when we have done something wrong or right. This is why so many crimes are committed in the darknesss of night … we don’t want anyone to detect who we are and what we are doing. And we didn’t need a score card to tell us which acts were right and which were wrong.
As to your citing God’s commands to show no mercy to the enemies of the Jews, that was God’s judgment to make. God will show no mercy to some of us when we go to the underworld, where His justice will prevail. His mercy is extended as far as it can go, but it is limited. If the enemies of the Jews are sworn to exterminate the Jews, a race from which the Messiah would come, God has every right to protect His own people who will produce in time the birth of the Messiah.
Many times in history the very existence of the Jews was savagely threatened. Perhaps you heard about one great threat … the Holocaust. The savagery of the Germans was dealt a serious blow. Germany itself was divided between its conquerors … the spoils of war. God, it seems, came down on the right side in that war. The assault on Germany was ruthless, and the Germans have been quiet ever since.
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Carl
Guest
SHIBBOLETH
Please look back at post #256.
No, you go back to post 250. Read third paragraph from the end.
Tsk, tsk.
Please look back at post #256.
No, you go back to post 250. Read third paragraph from the end.
Tsk, tsk.
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Shibboleth
Guest
You didn’t read your assignment from Genesis did you?
Hmmm… it seems to me that we did not know this stuff and did not cover ourselves or hide behind trees till after we ate the apple.
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Carl
Guest
SCIENTISTS ON CREATION
“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.” Isaac Newton, Physicist
“God, without whom we can do nothing.” Copernicus, Astronomer
“Let no one think or maintain that a person can search too far or be too well studied in either the book of God’s word or the book of God’s works.” Francis Bacon, Founding Philosopher of the Scientific Method in England
“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” Galileo Galilei, Astronomer
“I believe only and alone in the service of Jesus Christ. In him is all refuge and solace.” Johannes Kepler, Astronomer
“At the center of every human being is a God-shaped vacuum which can only be filled by Jesus Christ.” Blaise Pascal, Mathematician, Inventor, Philosopher
“Think what God has determined to do to all those who submit themselves to his righteousness and are willing to receive his gift …. They are to be conformed to the image of his Son and when that is fulfilled and God sees they are conformed to the image of Christ, there can be no more condemnation.” James Clerk Maxwell, Physicist
“In good philosophy, the word cause ought to be reserved to the single divine impulse that has formed the universe.” Louis Pasteur, Chemist
“A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.” Fred Hoyle, Astronomer
“Many scientists do believe in both science and God, the God of revelation, in a perfectly consistent way.” Richard Ferriman, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1965
“In fact, if one considers the possible constants and laws that could have emerged, the odds against a universe that produced life like ours are immense.” Stephen Hawking, Astronomer
“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” Robert Jastrow, Astronomer
“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.” Isaac Newton, Physicist
“God, without whom we can do nothing.” Copernicus, Astronomer
“Let no one think or maintain that a person can search too far or be too well studied in either the book of God’s word or the book of God’s works.” Francis Bacon, Founding Philosopher of the Scientific Method in England
“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” Galileo Galilei, Astronomer
“I believe only and alone in the service of Jesus Christ. In him is all refuge and solace.” Johannes Kepler, Astronomer
“At the center of every human being is a God-shaped vacuum which can only be filled by Jesus Christ.” Blaise Pascal, Mathematician, Inventor, Philosopher
“Think what God has determined to do to all those who submit themselves to his righteousness and are willing to receive his gift …. They are to be conformed to the image of his Son and when that is fulfilled and God sees they are conformed to the image of Christ, there can be no more condemnation.” James Clerk Maxwell, Physicist
“In good philosophy, the word cause ought to be reserved to the single divine impulse that has formed the universe.” Louis Pasteur, Chemist
“A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.” Fred Hoyle, Astronomer
“Many scientists do believe in both science and God, the God of revelation, in a perfectly consistent way.” Richard Ferriman, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1965
“In fact, if one considers the possible constants and laws that could have emerged, the odds against a universe that produced life like ours are immense.” Stephen Hawking, Astronomer
“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” Robert Jastrow, Astronomer
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Carl
Guest
SHIBBOLETH
Hmmm… it seems to me that we did not know this stuff and did not cover ourselves or hide behind trees till after we ate the apple.
Didn’t have to. Before they ate the apple there was only one commandment: don’t eat the apple. After they ate, they opened the Pandora Box.
BTW, is it true you’re converting to Lutheran? From what to Lutheran? Why Lutheran?
Hmmm… it seems to me that we did not know this stuff and did not cover ourselves or hide behind trees till after we ate the apple.
Didn’t have to. Before they ate the apple there was only one commandment: don’t eat the apple. After they ate, they opened the Pandora Box.
BTW, is it true you’re converting to Lutheran? From what to Lutheran? Why Lutheran?
W
wildlifer
Guest
lol, I see no empirical value in this “Christianized” Egyptian myth. Opposite evidence abounds.
So murder isn’t quite taboo now is it?
Seems to me an Almighty Deity wouldn’t need mere mortals to do his murdering for him. What? Was he all out of rain?
How one rationalizes these inconsistancies is beyond me.
BTW, the Germans were shown mercy, they weren’t slaughtered after defeat, man, woman and child.
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Carl
Guest
How one rationalizes these inconsistancies is beyond me.
That sword cuts both ways.
Based on your own evolutionary theory, rational is what we do on Thursday rather than Tuesday, because Thursday came after Tuesday and therefore we are enjoying the fruits of evolution. So if Thursday says no more slavery, but next Tuesday says let’s go back to slavery … THAT’S evolution. No violation of natural law … just evolution.
Clever dodge. Fooled yourself, anyway.
That sword cuts both ways.
Based on your own evolutionary theory, rational is what we do on Thursday rather than Tuesday, because Thursday came after Tuesday and therefore we are enjoying the fruits of evolution. So if Thursday says no more slavery, but next Tuesday says let’s go back to slavery … THAT’S evolution. No violation of natural law … just evolution.
Clever dodge. Fooled yourself, anyway.
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Carl
Guest
*So murder isn’t quite taboo now is it? *
Yes, it still is quite taboo. Ask any priest. So is incest. So is blasphemy. So is adultery. Etc.
But we are never wrong to obey God, however difficult the command. Abraham proved that
Yes, it still is quite taboo. Ask any priest. So is incest. So is blasphemy. So is adultery. Etc.
But we are never wrong to obey God, however difficult the command. Abraham proved that
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Shibboleth
Guest
Dangit don’t you understand, I know that I made an error in my statement. This is what I said in 256. I do not think that we killed the Neanderthals, I was being careless when I said that. They died off for a number of reasons, man being one of them.
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paul2
Guest
So Carl, care to respond to my post earlier? By respond, i mean actually read it, think about it, and say something based off what i said and not rant about something you have no clue about?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=39651&postcount=215
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=39651&postcount=215
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Carl
Guest
PAUL
You have to extend a basic courtesy here … you know, give me the post number so I know what you are talking about.
A little less ranting of your own might also help, don’t you think?
Pax,
Carl
You have to extend a basic courtesy here … you know, give me the post number so I know what you are talking about.
A little less ranting of your own might also help, don’t you think?
Pax,
Carl
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Carl
Guest
“When I was an atheist my argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? … Thus, in the very act of trying to prove that God does not exist – in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless – I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality – namely my idea of justice — was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning.”
C.S. Lewis
C.S. Lewis
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paul2
Guest
i gave you a link, but incase you didn’t see it, i’ll post it again.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=39651&postcount=215
That post is most definatly not a rant.
J
jpasta
Guest
my first post… I have just returned to the faith of my youth…but I am having problems with this thread…no one is going to convince an atheist that there is a God…and vice versa…but it sure makes for good entertainment and I suppose it beats watching TV. At this point on my journey I am leaning towards being an agnostic. I consider myself the doubting Thomas…and perhaps a so called “miracle” will change my doubt into a real belief.
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Duhawk83
Guest
Lets see there is all of that Nazi propaganda about the Aryan Superman. I believe the concept of the superhuman is something that comes from secular humanism.
Now there was all of that nonsense about the old Germanic and Norse gods, you know Loki, Odin, Thor…But that would make him a pagan and not an atheist.
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solarwnz
Guest
Phew! I just read this entire thread and then joined up! (I crossed over from Internet Infidels Discussion Forum)
I’m captivated by the ideas being posited here but I am also incensed at the level of ad hominem being thrown around. I must say, certain individuals here are doing an awful lot of generalizing, name calling and debasing for people who profess to either: faithfully follow loving paths dedicated to the truth or those who commit to the challenge of intellectual discourse; or both!
I hope that ideas on this forum can be judged on their merits, instead of what appears to be the judgment of these ideas by what type of person expounds them. Similarly, spurious ad hoc, psychological assessments of our opponent’s minds and motivations - designed to casually write off the ideas of those who disagree with us with a few slanderous or debasing remarks - are just as impeding to a genuine and complete understanding of another person’s reasons for dis/belief. Both sides could stand to add a little color to thier black and white perspectives. This is not a call to relativism - it is simply a respect for the complexities and a recognition of the many dualities intrinsic to possessing a human mind.
Also, if the truth (or what we would all like to agree on) is indeed important to us then we would do well to drop the “either/or” dichotomies and the binding blanket statements. They censor the important distinctions and details between divergent concepts and freeze any serious inquiry.
Here are some examples:
“If you believe in evolution you are not a true Christian”.
“You’re either an atheist and right or a theist and wrong”.
“If you don’t believe in god you have no morals.”
“You’re either a Christian or a disciple of the devil.”
“Theists blindly follow religion to comfort thier fear of death.”
No true understanding in a thread titled “INSIGHTS ON ATHEISM” (and invariably it’s cousins) can be had when these types of general statements are sincerely leveled at each other as applicable facts. We all have deep feelings on these issues and it is hard to restrain our passions. But let’s not forget that as believers and doubters alike we still have fundamental commonalities and the ability to change our minds. We may not like the altering of our views (because assent is never as easy as dissent) but in the face of solid argument and respectful discourse we can reach mutual understanding… That’s what I aim for.
More on this tomorrow…It is now 2:22am here in Massachusetts and I must sleep…zzzzzzz
Before I exit let me quickly identify myself (in one limiting aspect) as a non-theist - Michael Shermer’s prefered term. Goodnight and talk to you all soon.
I’m captivated by the ideas being posited here but I am also incensed at the level of ad hominem being thrown around. I must say, certain individuals here are doing an awful lot of generalizing, name calling and debasing for people who profess to either: faithfully follow loving paths dedicated to the truth or those who commit to the challenge of intellectual discourse; or both!
I hope that ideas on this forum can be judged on their merits, instead of what appears to be the judgment of these ideas by what type of person expounds them. Similarly, spurious ad hoc, psychological assessments of our opponent’s minds and motivations - designed to casually write off the ideas of those who disagree with us with a few slanderous or debasing remarks - are just as impeding to a genuine and complete understanding of another person’s reasons for dis/belief. Both sides could stand to add a little color to thier black and white perspectives. This is not a call to relativism - it is simply a respect for the complexities and a recognition of the many dualities intrinsic to possessing a human mind.
Also, if the truth (or what we would all like to agree on) is indeed important to us then we would do well to drop the “either/or” dichotomies and the binding blanket statements. They censor the important distinctions and details between divergent concepts and freeze any serious inquiry.
Here are some examples:
“If you believe in evolution you are not a true Christian”.
“You’re either an atheist and right or a theist and wrong”.
“If you don’t believe in god you have no morals.”
“You’re either a Christian or a disciple of the devil.”
“Theists blindly follow religion to comfort thier fear of death.”
No true understanding in a thread titled “INSIGHTS ON ATHEISM” (and invariably it’s cousins) can be had when these types of general statements are sincerely leveled at each other as applicable facts. We all have deep feelings on these issues and it is hard to restrain our passions. But let’s not forget that as believers and doubters alike we still have fundamental commonalities and the ability to change our minds. We may not like the altering of our views (because assent is never as easy as dissent) but in the face of solid argument and respectful discourse we can reach mutual understanding… That’s what I aim for.
More on this tomorrow…It is now 2:22am here in Massachusetts and I must sleep…zzzzzzz
Before I exit let me quickly identify myself (in one limiting aspect) as a non-theist - Michael Shermer’s prefered term. Goodnight and talk to you all soon.
W
wildlifer
Guest
Carl said:
You must own a farm to be able to build so many strawmen in one thread,
That is not my position, nor does it reflect my statements. I’ve already told you it would NOT be evolution, it would be devolution.
W
wildlifer
Guest
Carl said:
You mean it’s taboo, unless God “commands” otherwise, and then it’s not taboo.
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Carl
Guest
DOES ATHEISM HOPE?
This was the founder of “logical positivism” Alfred Ayer’s position, even as he approached death. Though he had had a near death experience sometime before his death, and though he had seen in that experience a red light that presented itself to him as the governance of the universe, he persisted in his hope that he was wrong about the red light and in his hope that God does not exist. Now in this case you could say there was no demand, and therefore there could be no supply. Wrong. If we are going to introduce an economic motif to the discussion, we have to be consistent. Lack of demand does not mean that Supply does not exist. Each of us has to experience his own demand before the Supply can be experienced. The spigot of faith has to be opened.
But why would Ayer HOPE that God does not exist? Mankind has hoped through the ages that God does exist. Why do atheists go against the yearning in the hearts of mankind as a whole? Now Ayer did not say he THOUGHT that God does not exist. He said he HOPED. This is a strange kind of hope that may be shared by many atheists and may be a key to the psychology of atheism. Why should atheists hope for their ultimate annihilation?
This was the founder of “logical positivism” Alfred Ayer’s position, even as he approached death. Though he had had a near death experience sometime before his death, and though he had seen in that experience a red light that presented itself to him as the governance of the universe, he persisted in his hope that he was wrong about the red light and in his hope that God does not exist. Now in this case you could say there was no demand, and therefore there could be no supply. Wrong. If we are going to introduce an economic motif to the discussion, we have to be consistent. Lack of demand does not mean that Supply does not exist. Each of us has to experience his own demand before the Supply can be experienced. The spigot of faith has to be opened.
But why would Ayer HOPE that God does not exist? Mankind has hoped through the ages that God does exist. Why do atheists go against the yearning in the hearts of mankind as a whole? Now Ayer did not say he THOUGHT that God does not exist. He said he HOPED. This is a strange kind of hope that may be shared by many atheists and may be a key to the psychology of atheism. Why should atheists hope for their ultimate annihilation?
- Status