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chemcatholic
Guest
Here you are assuming that every one of God’s answeres is “yes”. God does answer every prayer, but many times that answer is “no”.
Peace
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Peace
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Carl
Guest
ACCIPITER
*For instance, if I tell you to worship a purple dragon in another dimension that only I have seen, you would be quite skeptical. If I were to demand that you prove it does not exist you would find that absurd and demand that I prove it does exist. *
The analogy doesn’t work. Theoretically, the purple dragon could be proved not to exist by searching every part of the universe and finding it does not exist.
But you could search every part of the universe and never prove that God does not exist for the simple reason that God is by definition the Creator, not the Created.
The skeptic who is steeped in the scientific method assumes that if there is a God, such a being must be visibly floating on a cloud or a petri dish or somewhere else in the world of atoms and molecules. But that is not where God is to be found. God is to be found in the human heart, which may be the last place your average atheist wants to look for him.
Pax te cum.
Carl
*For instance, if I tell you to worship a purple dragon in another dimension that only I have seen, you would be quite skeptical. If I were to demand that you prove it does not exist you would find that absurd and demand that I prove it does exist. *
The analogy doesn’t work. Theoretically, the purple dragon could be proved not to exist by searching every part of the universe and finding it does not exist.
But you could search every part of the universe and never prove that God does not exist for the simple reason that God is by definition the Creator, not the Created.
The skeptic who is steeped in the scientific method assumes that if there is a God, such a being must be visibly floating on a cloud or a petri dish or somewhere else in the world of atoms and molecules. But that is not where God is to be found. God is to be found in the human heart, which may be the last place your average atheist wants to look for him.
Pax te cum.
Carl
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Carl
Guest
ACCIPITER
What Monarchy said is the standard response to that problem: the person making the positive claim has the burden of proof.
In the ordinary course of affairs, such as in a criminal trial, this would be true. But in the extraordinary matter of God, I think it is in the interest of the atheist to be positively certain there is no God. He cannot be certain merely by saying that he doesn’t see God. That was the mistake of the ancient enemies of Democritus who said that atoms could not exist if you can’t see them.
In the future, after sufficient effort, we found atoms everywhere.
How do you know in the future you will not find God after you have made the sufficient effort needed to find Him?
What Monarchy said is the standard response to that problem: the person making the positive claim has the burden of proof.
In the ordinary course of affairs, such as in a criminal trial, this would be true. But in the extraordinary matter of God, I think it is in the interest of the atheist to be positively certain there is no God. He cannot be certain merely by saying that he doesn’t see God. That was the mistake of the ancient enemies of Democritus who said that atoms could not exist if you can’t see them.
In the future, after sufficient effort, we found atoms everywhere.
How do you know in the future you will not find God after you have made the sufficient effort needed to find Him?
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squirt
Guest
Interesting topic.
Between humans and God, God is the omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent one. Why doesn’t He make the effort? Why not have everyone ‘sense’ His presence in whatever way is the best for that person? Heck, He can do that, can’t He?
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chemcatholic
Guest
Yes, he could have done that. In fact, angels, who are in the presence of God, also have free will similar to humans. Despite being in the presence of God in heaven, some of them rejected God - thus their fall from heaven. However, we are not angels in the direct presence of God. Even though we are not in his direct presence, I believe that he does make effort to reach to us. Do you know a person that has never, not once contemplated the infinite or the “meaning” of life, or felt that there is something more to life? Being intellingent and aware creatures of God, we long to be with Him even if we do not know Him or believe in Him. To me, that is proof that God exists.
Peace
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squirt
Guest
Lots of things can be contemplated. That doesn’t necessarily make them so.
Dominus tecum.
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Drew98
Guest
I don’t think I implied that the fear of death could not be overcome. It certainly can be for secular reasons as well as religious ones.
Hmmm… Mother Teresa always seemed like a happy person to me. Perhaps I just don’t know enough about her. Was her cheerful demeanor just a facade?
Let me get this straight - you’re saying the non-existence of something implies the existence of a creator who didn’t create it?
Don’t bother to look it up. I coined it myself and it’s pure speculation in response to a previous post.
By the principle of occam’s razor I’d rather not resort to bringing supernatural entities into the explanation as long as there’s a possibility of a purely natural explanation for human origins. Besides, if we bring a “maker of genes” into the explanation then we would need to explain the origins of this maker. And I suspect that would be even more difficult than explaining human origins without a supernatural creator.
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Monarchy
Guest
Chris W:
Science is the study of the natural world, it cannot say anything about supernatural things.
Do you believe in the above as well? They have as much evidence for their existance as God does.
Care to list a few? Have they been independantly verified by a non-biased source? How do they prove God exists?
Please prove that jesus did miracles. The best you have with the bible is hearsay. The writers of the NT could easily craft their ‘messiah’ to fit the prophesies of the OT.
Bring it on!! I’ll will be happy to answer anything you offer!
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Science is the study of the natural world, it cannot say anything about supernatural things.
Exactly. You cannot physicaly prove the non-existance of ANYTHING You cannot disprove the exisatnce of Allah, Zeus, Oden, Ra, Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, Unicorns, Leprachauns, etc…
Do you believe in the above as well? They have as much evidence for their existance as God does.
Please list it and I will happily answer.
Please list what other type of proof is available.
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Monarchy
Guest
could not exist I am not saying god Could not or does not exist. You cannot physicaly prove the non-existance of something. I am saying that you should prove that he does, as you are making the positive claim.
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See Above
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Monarchy
Guest
Why does it matter?
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squirt
Guest
Mind if I intrude?
While I have never found a ‘metaphysical’ proof of God’s existence that I find to be personally compelling, there is a bit of a difference between believing in (1) characters from folklore (Santa Claus, Easter Bunny); (2) polytheistic Gods (Zeus, Oden); and (3) a monotheistic God (Allah … actually Catholics consider Allah to be the same God as that of Judaism and Christianity).
Do you see absolutely no difference between any of these 3 categories?
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Monarchy
Guest
Chris W:
One thing that bothers me though is that theists always are happy to use science if it helps their case, when it does not they drop it like a ton of bricks.
Case in point:
Theist: Something cannot come from nothing!
**Me:**Who created God, since something can not come from nothing?
TheistGod does not need a creator!
That proved that fully formed insects don’t come from rotting meat (living matter fromonce living matter) and doesn’t say anthing about living matter coming from non-living matter.
One thing that bothers me though is that theists always are happy to use science if it helps their case, when it does not they drop it like a ton of bricks.
Case in point:
Theist: Something cannot come from nothing!
**Me:**Who created God, since something can not come from nothing?
TheistGod does not need a creator!
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Monarchy
Guest
The point was made that you cannot disprove god, and infered that because of that, I should believe in him. I am simply asking why the poster does not believe in them as well, as they can not be disproven either. In other words hold the same standard to all claims.
In light of the argument used by the poster, No
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squirt
Guest
Heck, I would probably use similar arguments with the poster you were answering as you did.
In a more general sense, would I be correct in assuming that you see some differences between the categories?
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Monarchy
Guest
I am not sure what you mean. Could you refine you’r question a little more?Heck, I would probably use similar arguments with the poster you were answering as you did.
In a more general sense, would I be correct in assuming that you see some differences between the categories?
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Carl
Guest
MONARCHY
*Do I detect Pascal’s Wager?
Yes, you do. I have always liked Pascal because he does not presume to be able to prove to any atheist the existence of God. He knew the atheist’s logic better than the atheist. So rather than appeal to the atheist’s brain, which always demands that God be seen in some physical way, or else He doesn’t exist, like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny cannot exist, he dared the atheist to rise to the challenge of protecting his own self interests by believing in God because there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. Sort of a spin on the saying of Jesus: “What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul?”
By your very setence he said that they could not exist I am not saying god Could not or does not exist. You cannot physicaly prove the non-existance of something. I am saying that you should prove that he does, as you are making the positive claim.
And I am saying the proof cannot be put forward that would convince an atheist. None of the logical arguments for God are compelling arguments. If they were, there would hardly be any atheists in the world. Even the sight of a miracle would not persuade an atheist, because the atheist will always say that there is some natural explanation yet to be found for the miracle.
The bottom line is that you cannot prove anything to an atheist because the atheist does not want to believe. The atheist is running from God. If he is this forum, he is here for one very practical and human reason: he has only stopped here to look back and see if God is still chasing him.
Read Francis Thompson’s poem The Hound of Heaven.
Or consider the following from the poet Coleridge:
Forth from his dark and lonely hiding place,
(Portentous sight!) the owlet Atheism,
Sailing on wings athwart the noon,
Drops his blue-fringed lids, and holds them close,
And hooting at the glorious sun in heaven,
Cries out, “Where is it?”
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, “Fears in Solitude"*
*Do I detect Pascal’s Wager?
Yes, you do. I have always liked Pascal because he does not presume to be able to prove to any atheist the existence of God. He knew the atheist’s logic better than the atheist. So rather than appeal to the atheist’s brain, which always demands that God be seen in some physical way, or else He doesn’t exist, like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny cannot exist, he dared the atheist to rise to the challenge of protecting his own self interests by believing in God because there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. Sort of a spin on the saying of Jesus: “What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul?”
By your very setence he said that they could not exist I am not saying god Could not or does not exist. You cannot physicaly prove the non-existance of something. I am saying that you should prove that he does, as you are making the positive claim.
And I am saying the proof cannot be put forward that would convince an atheist. None of the logical arguments for God are compelling arguments. If they were, there would hardly be any atheists in the world. Even the sight of a miracle would not persuade an atheist, because the atheist will always say that there is some natural explanation yet to be found for the miracle.
The bottom line is that you cannot prove anything to an atheist because the atheist does not want to believe. The atheist is running from God. If he is this forum, he is here for one very practical and human reason: he has only stopped here to look back and see if God is still chasing him.
Read Francis Thompson’s poem The Hound of Heaven.
Or consider the following from the poet Coleridge:
Forth from his dark and lonely hiding place,
(Portentous sight!) the owlet Atheism,
Sailing on wings athwart the noon,
Drops his blue-fringed lids, and holds them close,
And hooting at the glorious sun in heaven,
Cries out, “Where is it?”
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, “Fears in Solitude"*
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Monarchy
Guest
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squirt
Guest
OK, Let’s try this one …
Do you think that belief in (1) characters from folklore, (2) polytheism, and (3) monotheism can all be explained in the same way?
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S.J
Guest
Carl,
You made an interesting observation in your last post on atheists at this board. Why on earth would an atheist lurk and post on a Catholic/Christian board?
It reminded me of something I heard Fr. Benedict Groeschel mention once (paraphrasing) - you have a chance with atheists because they are actively searching. They are looking for meaning. Hardened agnostics are nearly impossible to crack because they have stopped looking.
It is also important to remember, as the Gospel of St. John points out, God is Spirit. Physical proofs breakdown when trying to prove that spirit exists.
I also look to the men and women of deep prayer, humility, and complete selflessness over the ages. They had personal relationships with God. God did not have to be proven to them - they knew Him intimately and worshiped Him and not themselves. We can all learn from their example. Ex-Christians who are now atheists have given up too soon. Pray, pray and then pray some more.
In a similar vain, there was a story in my local paper of a brilliant women who has a masters degree in mathematics and has made millions. She described herself as basically a very logical perosn and an agnostic. She picked up a copy of the autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila and read it on board a long flight. She recounted that she had a personal experience of God on that trip from applying what she had read. Shortly thereafter she bacame a Carmellite nun and now spends her days in contemplative prayer. It is not an easier life, but she has never been happier.
“Our souls are restless until they rest in God.” St. Augustine.
You made an interesting observation in your last post on atheists at this board. Why on earth would an atheist lurk and post on a Catholic/Christian board?
It reminded me of something I heard Fr. Benedict Groeschel mention once (paraphrasing) - you have a chance with atheists because they are actively searching. They are looking for meaning. Hardened agnostics are nearly impossible to crack because they have stopped looking.
It is also important to remember, as the Gospel of St. John points out, God is Spirit. Physical proofs breakdown when trying to prove that spirit exists.
I also look to the men and women of deep prayer, humility, and complete selflessness over the ages. They had personal relationships with God. God did not have to be proven to them - they knew Him intimately and worshiped Him and not themselves. We can all learn from their example. Ex-Christians who are now atheists have given up too soon. Pray, pray and then pray some more.
In a similar vain, there was a story in my local paper of a brilliant women who has a masters degree in mathematics and has made millions. She described herself as basically a very logical perosn and an agnostic. She picked up a copy of the autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila and read it on board a long flight. She recounted that she had a personal experience of God on that trip from applying what she had read. Shortly thereafter she bacame a Carmellite nun and now spends her days in contemplative prayer. It is not an easier life, but she has never been happier.
“Our souls are restless until they rest in God.” St. Augustine.
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squirt
Guest
S.J.:
It wasn’t those arguments that converted me, but they did open up the possibility in my mind that it might not be irrational to believe in God …
When I was an atheist, I used to post on a Catholic board because the Catholics made me think. Sure, you can argue against the existence of God with atheists and agnostics, but they will just tell you you’re right all the time … the Catholics made me question my assumptions.
It wasn’t those arguments that converted me, but they did open up the possibility in my mind that it might not be irrational to believe in God …
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