Intelligent Design, Edward Feser's views

  • Thread starter Thread starter tafan2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Just a reminder about pointjng out any post at any time anywhere in the forum that claims that evolution proves that there is no God.

You’ve been involved in these dicussions for months. Many thousands of posts. Put up or shut up.
 
Techno2000 said:
how many transitional stages / steps
Click to expand...
Let’s imagine a series of creatures as being on a movie clip, each one different than the one before with the “artichoke” set within an environmental background, giving the illusion of movement, but each “frame” a separate being participating within its changing environment.

Evolutionary theory suggests that the “picture”
  • reorganized itself randomly
  • that utilitarian reasons, aka natural selection are the sole arbitrators of whether or not something exists as opposed to how each individual living form is also part of its environment, a holy unity that manifests the glory of God in each “frame”
  • that the conflict between the individual creature and its environment is natural, rather than the outcome of sin which through us entered into the world, transforming it from its beginnings to its end (at least our understanding of and relationship with it)
  • is ultimately nothing more than a collection of pixels, that there is no artichoke, but simply atoms, exquisitely organized by the random activity of the simplest of processes having no direction or purpose, and beginning with a single pixel that went on to produce the entire film as well as others that include we ourselves, this very activity in which we are now engaged. This collection of atoms somehow is one being who knows and acts as a causal agent in relation to the collective material universe, other persons and the Ground of our being.
What makes sense to me is that each artichoke is a new creation, a manifestation of plant-life, an organizing principle or soul that brings the being of matter together into a new form of being. That there were and will be variants of artichoke coexisting with, preceding and following its moment in time, speaks to the ongoing creativity of Existence, if at all random, only on the solid base that is the will of God. We did not appear as we do randomly. We could not have randomly been a “walking”, “talking” version of artichoke.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Last edited:
Aloysium said:
Let’s imagine a series of creatures as being on a movie clip, each one different than the one before with the “artichoke” set within an environmental background, giving the illusion of movement, but each “frame” a separate being participating within its changing environment.
Click to expand...
let’s say it took 50 transitional stages for evolution to build the artichoke. Now you going to need 50 environmental pressures to trigger all these DNA mutation stages, and this is just for the artichoke.
 
If you look at genome size, amoeba (including single-cell amoeba) and fish have a bigger genome than humans. I think it’s possible that some “evolution” was pre-programmed by the Creator in the genome. Some code may have laid dormant for many generations until used.

Reference: See Wikipedia for Genome#Genome_size

Randomness could not produce such code. Intelligence was needed.
 
stoplooklisten said:
I think it’s possible that some “evolution” was pre-programmed by the Creator in the genome.
Click to expand...
We know from the Bible that God can make bread, wine and fish pop into existence , so why would God have to use evolution ?
 
Wesrock said:
As a theist, I must question your use of the word “impossibly.” I don’t think it means what you think it means.
Click to expand...
As a theist, you ought to be able to distinguish the “impossibly” high chance of something obtaining due to pure chance, on its own without any other influencing factors, and the mitigation of that “impossibly” high chance of something occurring if the hand of God is involved.

There would be a difference, just as the impossibly high chance of an airliner being built by random causal events in the natural order as distinct from when it is built when rational and intentional human agents become involved in the process.
 
stoplooklisten said:
If you look at genome size, amoeba (including single-cell amoeba) and fish have a bigger genome than humans. I think it’s possible that some “evolution” was pre-programmed by the Creator in the genome. Some code may have laid dormant for many generations until used
Click to expand...
That would be one possibility, some single cell creatures acting as sort of stem cells for all subsequent living organisms.

In that case however, there would not be any “pre-programming” in the sense of how we all develop from being a one-cell-person. All life forms would carry the DNA of that original amoeba, or whatever it was.

Also psychologically and spiritually, there would be no difference between amoebas, algae, insects, plants and animals, any organism on earth, except as to how it is expressed through their physical nature. While we should treat all life with respect, a mosquito is not like a human being with an eternal soul, possessing a free will that enables it to love.

The genome is the tip of the iceberg that is any form of living creature, that which is knowable through the senses and their technological extensions. The existence of kinds of animals involved the creation of particular souls that bring the existence of all the constituent parts, ontological, psychological and material, into a unity that is the individual creature, a part of the diversity of living beings.
 
Last edited:
HarryStotle said:
40.png
Wesrock:
As a theist, I must question your use of the word “impossibly.” I don’t think it means what you think it means.
Click to expand...
As a theist, you ought to be able to distinguish the “impossibly” high chance of something obtaining due to pure chance, on its own without any other influencing factors, and the mitigation of that “impossibly” high chance of something occurring if the hand of God is involved.

There would be a difference, just as the impossibly high chance of an airliner being built by random causal events in the natural order as distinct from when it is built when rational and intentional human agents become involved in the process.
Click to expand...
If there is a chance, however small, it’s not “impossibly high.”
 
Techno2000 said:
let’s say it took 50 transitional stages for evolution to build the artichoke. Now you going to need 50 environmental pressures to trigger all these DNA mutation stages, and this is just for the artichoke.
Click to expand...
Just to be clear, the way I understand things, there are no transitional stages between different kinds of organisms. We exist as a new creation and not part of a series of transitions of different ape-like animals. As to DNA mutations, there is a complexity of that process that goes beyond the simple interaction of extraneous factors on the actual molecule.

Various teratogens such as radiation, toxins, and viruses can damage the genome and lead to the recessive genes that we all possess but that sexual reproduction can usually cope with, leading to the development of a viable organism. Although many believe that this is the process by which evolution occurs, it is irrational, counter-intuitive and empirically disproven to my mind.

Organisms exist individually as themselves and also as parts of a larger environmental whole, all having a physical, mental and metaphysical structure. These systems are always in flux. As science has and continues to reveal, it is constructed in such a way to facilitate mutations, as you assert in response to environmental pressures, to additionally anticipate possible changes, to probably express psychological and simply as an expression of infinite creativity.

In terms of environmental influences, I recall an experiment in which a group of dull mice were bred, performing poorly in maze tests. Their offspring were subjected to an enriched environment and were found to recover some of the skills lacking in their parents. The interesting finding that the increased capacity was passed on to their offspring, thereby supporting the hypothesis that such influences could affect the genome. Here we have alluded to the idea that mind and brain are one. Clearly, when we see the diverse expressions of beauty, especially in the bird kingdom, we get an inkling of how creatures are drawn towards it, as the vehicles for Divine art.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Last edited:
Techno2000 said:
40.png
Aloysium:
Let’s imagine a series of creatures as being on a movie clip, each one different than the one before with the “artichoke” set within an environmental background, giving the illusion of movement, but each “frame” a separate being participating within its changing environment.
Click to expand...
let’s say it took 50 transitional stages for evolution to build the artichoke. Now you going to need 50 environmental pressures to trigger all these DNA mutation stages, and this is just for the artichoke.
Click to expand...
That’s a bit of an oversimplified and overcomplicated illustration at the same time.I really don’t see what’s hard to believe about this. I don’t see what’s hard to believe about a hip or a jaw or a knee. I don’t feel “gotcha’d” or stuck between a rock and a hard place. I just feel like I’m talking to someone who doesn’t know the subject matter.

It’s like discussing Aristotle or Aquinas and people not following or accusing it of being gobbledygook. It’s not. They just don’t have a foundational understanding of the material and terms for them to process the discussion. Not because they’re unintelligent, just because it’s unfamiliar.
 
Last edited:
We should at least agree throwing around the word impossible when discussing the ‘possible, if improbable’. It undermines the argument.
 
Aloysium said:
40.png
Techno2000:
let’s say it took 50 transitional stages for evolution to build the artichoke. Now you going to need 50 environmental pressures to trigger all these DNA mutation stages, and this is just for the artichoke.
Click to expand...
Just to be clear, the way I understand things, there are no transitional stages between different kinds of organisms.
Click to expand...
Just to be clear, you guys, despite months of people explaining exactly what evolution is, have absolutely no idea whatsoever.

Environmental pressures trigger dna changes? Uh?

If a change in an organism’s dna allows a better fit into a changed environment then it will have adapted. The changed environment doesn’t instigate a change in the dna. That’s not even wrong.

No transitional stages? What the…?

YOU are a transitional stage. Between your parents and your children.

How do you guys not understand any of this? They teach it to young children who have no oroblem in understanding it. How can you get it so wrong so often?

If a young child exhibited the lack of understanding about this subject as you guys do after literally months of detailed explanations, then that child would be considered backward. He or she would be sent for tests to see exactly what the problem was. Because it shows a serious inability to absord relatively straightforward concepts.
 
I like the image as God the artist. The universe is the canvas he paints on.
 
Aloysium said:
Just to be clear, the way I understand things, there are no transitional stages between different kinds of organisms
Click to expand...
Every single creature that has ever existed is a transitional stage.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top