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Thoughtfulone
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For crying out loud. If you change your mind about going to church/killing someone/adultery, etc. because you know it to be wrong, then you didn’t really have full consent of the will now did you?
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Bookcat
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Just because someone changed their mind about MissingMass/Murdering/Adultery…does not mean they did not have full consent at the time they made the choice/intention.
A person can decide with full knowledge and compete consent to commit adultery. And thus ALREADY commit a mortal sin (internally) by that choice. And then later make a NEW choice to not do so…not to carry their sinful decision into action…thus “changing their mind” …and repenting of the gravely evil choice they had made. Then they would confess that original mortally sinful choice. And be thankful they did not make the mortal sin worse by carrying their decision to action.
A person can have full consent and never act on it…or repent of it later.
This is Catholic Moral Theology.
But again…a person can be tempted…and not make such a choice …and later overcome that temptation completely…
or a person with scruples can confuse their temptation/feelings with giving consent…(or in other ways confuse things…due to their fear etc)
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Thoughtfulone
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Well, I disagree with you. If I choose not to go to Mass and then decide to go because I want to do the right thing, then the bottom line is that I did not truly have the decisive will to miss it in the first place, and even if I had, I did the right thing. Missing mass is a sin. It is a sin that requires an ACTION on the part of the sinner. A real CHOICE has not been made until it is ACTED upon. If one does not have the “guts”(for lack of a better term) to go through with it, then FULL consent of the will is not present, period! How can you not see this?
What if I said to someone, “When I was 16 I made the terrible decision to have all of the care bears tattooed on my butt”, they would assume that I have all of the care bears tattooed on my butt. That’s because you can’t really call it a true decision without follow-through. Here is the definition of the word “decide”:
To determine; to form a definite opinion; to come to a conclusion
—Synonyms
People with beliefs like yours are the reason so many people end up leaving the church. They can’t handle the guilt you’re always throwing around. I can see why. It’s quite frustrating.
What if I said to someone, “When I was 16 I made the terrible decision to have all of the care bears tattooed on my butt”, they would assume that I have all of the care bears tattooed on my butt. That’s because you can’t really call it a true decision without follow-through. Here is the definition of the word “decide”:
To determine; to form a definite opinion; to come to a conclusion
—Synonyms
- Decide, resolve, determine. Imply settling upon a purpose and being able to adhere to it. To decide is to make up one’s mind as to what shall be done and the way to do it: He decided to go today.
People with beliefs like yours are the reason so many people end up leaving the church. They can’t handle the guilt you’re always throwing around. I can see why. It’s quite frustrating.
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Thoughtfulone
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The OP said that if a certain person was attending mass, they would not have gone, which is moot because it didn’t even happen. You say they are in mortal sin nonetheless. By your rationale, I am guilty of every single sin that I WOULD commit if the circumstances in my life were different. Can you think of a circumstance where you could possibly be compelled to commit murder (somebody kills your whole family in front of you, you wrestle the gun away from them, and in a fit of anger, you shoot him…that’s a 2fer, anger AND murder), or steal, or become angry at God and blaspheme His name, or be convinced to miss mass for 10 million dollars? If so, you better run to the confessional because if there is even 1 circumstance where you would commit a mortal sin, then according to you, the decision has been made and you’re going to hell even though it hasn’t even happened!
You know the old saying that God doesn’t give us more than we can handle? That’s not just to keep us from committing suicide, but also to keep us in His grace. God knows all too well that in the right circumstance, almost all of us could be convinced to commit the most heinous of sins, but thankfully, He doesn’t hold that against us.
You know the old saying that God doesn’t give us more than we can handle? That’s not just to keep us from committing suicide, but also to keep us in His grace. God knows all too well that in the right circumstance, almost all of us could be convinced to commit the most heinous of sins, but thankfully, He doesn’t hold that against us.
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Bookcat
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rwoehmke
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I studied Moral Theology some 65 years ago and what Book Cat has to say is quite in line with what I was taught. Listen to him/her as it is for the good of your soul. Ignorance can be a mitigating factor, but you all have been exposed to the truth, ordinary truth, not some ultra conservative opinions. 
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Bookcat
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If I tonight sit and decide I am going to murder my wife tomorrow. And I do this with full knowledge and deliberate consent. I have tonight committed a mortal sin.
So tomorrow comes. It is now Friday.
And I …say for fear of going to jail or even from a sincere repentance for my decision of last night …decide not to kill my wife…I am not guilty of the act of murder. But I am still guilty for the mortal sin of last night deciding with full knowledge and complete consent to murder my wife.
Thus I need confession.
On the other hand…say I am angry and some thoughts come to me of throwing my wife out of the window to her death… and in my anger…I feel attracted to the thought…but instead of giving deliberate consent…I end up rejecting the thought as I realize what I was really thinking…such would be an example of being tempted etc but not giving full consent with full knowledge (in regards to the thought).
There could be endless others…
So tomorrow comes. It is now Friday.
And I …say for fear of going to jail or even from a sincere repentance for my decision of last night …decide not to kill my wife…I am not guilty of the act of murder. But I am still guilty for the mortal sin of last night deciding with full knowledge and complete consent to murder my wife.
Thus I need confession.
On the other hand…say I am angry and some thoughts come to me of throwing my wife out of the window to her death… and in my anger…I feel attracted to the thought…but instead of giving deliberate consent…I end up rejecting the thought as I realize what I was really thinking…such would be an example of being tempted etc but not giving full consent with full knowledge (in regards to the thought).
There could be endless others…
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Bookcat
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Bookcat
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Jimmy Akin -the Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers:
jimmyakin.org/2005/06/mental_sins.html
again…this is all standard Catholic Moral Theology
jimmyakin.org/2005/06/mental_sins.html
again…this is all standard Catholic Moral Theology
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Thoughtfulone
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So then the answer is “yes”, if someone thought “If somebody paid me 1,000,000 dollars to miss mass, I would do it.”, and doesn’t confess it, that person is going to hell.
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Bookcat
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Thoughtfulone
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I read it. Where in the catechism is this? I can think of many scenarios in which I may be compelled to commit a mortal sin, so I guess I’m going to hell.
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Bookcat
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In the section on sin …the nature of sin…the kinds of sin etc
…
Oh by the way the Catechism is not a course in Moral Theology …it does not cover every possible question…
So then the answer is “yes”, if someone thought “If somebody paid me 1,000,000 dollars to miss mass, I would do it.”, and doesn’t confess it, that person is going to hell.
– again read Jimmy. They *may * perhaps commit a mortal sin by doing so…or it can just be some temptation…or OCD…or in various ways not fit the requirements for mortal sin…etc and or if they did commit a mortal sin…they may have perfect contrition and intend to get to confession…and also…God can even give special grace in the last moments of life…(if they did have an unconfessed mortal sin)
As for yourself…I encourage you to “set your will against any and all mortal sin”. “I firmly resolve never to commit a mortal sin” …And not think “if this such happened…I would do this…” or “what if I was in such and such situation??”and even what you said applies here you do not really know what you would do then…you do not have the grace “now” for then. What you do want to not do is sit and think about such things now…but rather “firmly resolve never to commit a mortal sin” and to “follow Jesus Christ faithfully all the days of my life”.
of course if someone were to commit a mortal sin in some way…one needs confession.
(oh and in some things “being forced” to do something like rob store …at gun point… too is a different story…)
And as you note above in your posts you have some difficulty perhaps with scrupulosity …so I really encourage you to not take temptations etc for sin…etc (as I note above)…to have a regular confessor to not only confess any sins…but to guide you and help you conquer any scruples…
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Thoughtfulone
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Say what you will, but I have never heard or read a definitive statement dealing specifically with this issue coming from the CC, nor is it in the Catechism in the section on sin and I do not believe it.
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Bookcat
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I does not matter so much what “I say”… it is not my idea.
This is all just standard Catholic Moral Theology (I have a degee in theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville) …even the poster up above says he was taught this in theology 65 years ago. It is nothing new.
Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers explains it as I linked.
If you go read works of Catholic Moral Theology it is there…
The Scriptures point this out…Jesus in fact makes it clear in the Sermon on the Mount that one can sin seriously in the heart…
and for example one finds in St. Justin Martyr in the Second Century:
“He (Jesus) repudiates not only one who actually commits adultery, but even one who wishes to do so; for not only our actions are manifest to God, but even our thoughts” (First Apology 15 [A.D. 151]). (CA tract on perm of matrimony)
Catechism:
853 Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."128 But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
Compendium of the Catechism:
- When does one commit a mortal sin?
1874
One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
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Thoughtfulone
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I agree that one can sin in thought, and I agree that lust is a sin of the mind and that blasphemy CAN be a sin of the mind (let’s face it; deliberately thinking bad thoughts about God is essentially the same as saying bad things about God). No argument there.
I also agree that sin ORIGINATES in the mind (or as the Bible puts it, in the heart). But then again, what doesn’t? No argument there either.
What has not been shown to me is that a hypothetical situation that never actually takes place can be the occasion for a mortal sin of thought simply because one says: “If someone paid me a trillion dollars, I would skip Mass” with certainty. Baloney.
And I read the Jimmy Akin blog…I’m not convinced. Not that people should go around fantasizing about murder, but please…a mortal sin?
I have not seen or read anything definitive on this subject. Something tells me that if this were the case, we would hear a lot more about it. I mean ****, you can’t read 2 pages of Catholic literature without reading about the evils of masturbation and contraception, but the CC has just decided never to mention the fact that hypothetical thoughts about missing church will send you to hell? I don’t think so…
I also agree that sin ORIGINATES in the mind (or as the Bible puts it, in the heart). But then again, what doesn’t? No argument there either.
What has not been shown to me is that a hypothetical situation that never actually takes place can be the occasion for a mortal sin of thought simply because one says: “If someone paid me a trillion dollars, I would skip Mass” with certainty. Baloney.
And I read the Jimmy Akin blog…I’m not convinced. Not that people should go around fantasizing about murder, but please…a mortal sin?
I have not seen or read anything definitive on this subject. Something tells me that if this were the case, we would hear a lot more about it. I mean ****, you can’t read 2 pages of Catholic literature without reading about the evils of masturbation and contraception, but the CC has just decided never to mention the fact that hypothetical thoughts about missing church will send you to hell? I don’t think so…
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Bookcat
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Bookcat
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fbl9
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bookcat
x$ to miss mass.
sure i’ll take it, hey wait a minute you want me to commit a mortal sin…but i already did
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perhaps by full knowledge it is meant if a person has already weighed the gravity of the sin.
i know it is wrong but…then there is sin.
x$ to miss mass.
sure i’ll take it, hey wait a minute you want me to commit a mortal sin…but i already did
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perhaps by full knowledge it is meant if a person has already weighed the gravity of the sin.
i know it is wrong but…then there is sin.
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Bookcat
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Here is also from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2303 Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm. “But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.”
Ok there it is in black and white as they say.
I deliberately desire (and in internal act of the will) to do grave harm (such as murdering him…) such is a mortal sin.
No external action involved. No actual “grave harm” but only the internal desire
(which of course one would still need full knowledge and complete consent of course…but that is taken for granted)
2303 Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm. “But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.”
Ok there it is in black and white as they say.
I deliberately desire (and in internal act of the will) to do grave harm (such as murdering him…) such is a mortal sin.
No external action involved. No actual “grave harm” but only the internal desire
(which of course one would still need full knowledge and complete consent of course…but that is taken for granted)
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