intercession

[edwinG]

Tom:

Edwin, always a pleasure. I know what you mean about reading Scripture in a different context. We are all blessed by each others faith. I have learned so much about my faith by looking at Scripture from another’s point of view. As far as your concordance (I hope I can say this in a non-offensive way), it was written by Protestants, who, would not want to promote a Catholic teaching that they did not agree with. Seeing only 3 references to intercession should be a first clue. Was this for the entire Bible? Old and New Testament? Certainly reading the OT would provide ample proof that God does use humans, angles, and saints for intercession. As I said it’s probably the most referred to subject in Scripture. God didn’t change the rules when Jesus came to us; He still uses us as intercessors, as He uses the saints. Revelations appears to me to refer to saints in heaven and not on earth. I’m at work at this moment and don’t have my Bible handy, but truly, you can’t read Scripture and not see intercession. It’s in every book of Scripture. Most Protestants would like to minimize the use of intercession to any other than Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, but God uses us all.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ be with you
Tom

HI Tom,
It is good to see your name on a post.
Yes my bible has 3 for intercession, and one each for intercede and intercessor. If you have time , maybe you can just put the references ( not the quotes) of some truly catholic style intercessions. Then I can mulll over them.Yes, I believe in Revelations that it is in heaven. I sense you are speaking on a wider scale. Do you mean God uses anyone to convey a message. This is a frequent happening in my life. And there is always some little hint of something to make your ears prick up and say, O it is Jesus on the line, message coming in. For that type of intercession ( or intervention) the sky is the limit. Is there a pun in there, Jesus said this evil race want a sign in the sky. I running off at the fingers a bit here.Best I go.
Christ be with you Tom
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Tantum ergo:

Yacbos, aren’t the “dead–in flesh” believers alive in God?

Corinthians15, 12 If Christ is preached that he has been raised from the dead, how (can) some among you say that (there) is no resurrection from the dead? 13 If (there) is no resurrection from the dead, (then) Christ has not been raised. 14 If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is [also] empty, and your faith is empty. 15 So, we are discovered (by others) as false witnesses (in the name) of God, because we witnessed according to God that he raised the Christ, whom he did not raise if truly the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is useless, you are still in your sins, 18 then the ones having fallen asleep (in death) in Christ are also lost. 19 If in this life we are only placing our hope in Christ, (then) we are the most pitiful of all men.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead as the first fruit (for the harvest sacrifice) of those having fallen asleep (in death).

15:12-13 “resurrection from the dead” The word for resurrection was “anastasis” in Greek, meaning “standing up.” This was a popular word for resurrection in the New Testament.

So, if Christ has been raised, those who have died in Him will also be raised.

What makes you think that, now that death has been conquered by Christ, that those who die do not likewise conquer? That their immortal souls are not fully conscious of the beatific vision which is the full knowledge of God?

BEFORE the resurrection of Christ, people died indeed, and went to a sort of “waiting station” which in some texts is rendered hell, in others limbo, in others such as “the bosom of Abraham”. When Christ died, those who had died and been judged were able to go to one of three places. TWO of those three places will exist forever–heaven and hell. The THIRD place–that place which was “abraham’s bosom”, we Catholics call “purgatory”. Purgatory will NOT exist after the Last Judgment at the second coming, because purgatory is ONLY for those SAVED, who WILL ENTER HEAVEN WHEN THEY ARE CLEAN. No one who goes to Purgatory will leave it to go to HELL, only to HEAVEN.

Purgatory is spoken of in Macabbees; it is scriptural. It is also common sense. Obviously, after Adam and Eve’s sin NO ONE was able to enter HEAVEN until Christ’s sacrifice–correct? Equally obviously, NOBODY who enters HELL will ever leave–correct? So, WHERE WERE ALL THE GOOD PEOPLE BETWEEN ADAM AND JESUS? They weren’t in hell. They weren’t in heaven. They WERE somewhere–waiting–until THEY WERE JUSTIFIED/ CLEANED through Christ’s sacrifice.

You say that the dead saints are alive in God. Very right! They are alive for GOD, but not for us. I can’t visit a dead saint today and ask him something, unless I find a way to communicate with the dead. So my question was: how can you talk to the dead?

And you say that those saints will rise in Christ. AMEN! But in fact, the resurrection didn’t happen yet. So until then, how can you talk to the dead saints?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

jpusateri:

To add to Tantum Ergo’s post:

Luke 20:37-38
Now that the dead rise again, Moses also shewed at the bush, when he called the Lord: The God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. For he is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to him.

Yes, amen! All live TO HIM, but not to us.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Tom]

Last night I was thinking of my post and realized my objection to the concordance was wrong. The concordance simply matches words, not concepts. The word “intercede” may only appear in the NT 3 times, that does not imply that the concept of intercession only appears that many times.
One instance in Scripture which I feel shows the wonder of intercession is at the transfiguration in Mt 17, Mk 9 and Luke 9. Most Protestants will claim this is not intercession at all, but I invite you to read and ask yourself several questions.

1. Just what is “intercession”?
2. Why does our Lord use Moses and Elijah to discuss “His exodus”? He certainly COULD speak directly to His Father. Did He “need” to use intercession? Moses and Elijah represent the Law and the Prophets signifying the new covenant with God and man.
3. Jesus is using Moses and Elijah for a specific reason, and it’s not for His benefit. Who do you suppose He’s doing this for?
4. Are Moses and Elijah “saints”? We know from Scripture that Elijah was indeed in heaven prior to the resurrection, so he at least was a saint in heaven.
5. If Jesus does indeed use Moses and Elijah for intercession do you suppose He’s teaching you and me that it’s appropriate to use “saints” for the same purpose?
6. Is it necessary to use intercession? To answer this last question, I will say no, you don’t “need “ to use intercession, but, if you’re refusing to use intercession because of pride, well then maybe we need to address that.

Luke 9,
29 While he was praying his face changed in appearance and his clothing became dazzling white.
30 And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah,
31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem.
32 Peter and his companions had been overcome by sleep, but becoming fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him.
33 As they were about to part from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good that we are here; let us make three tents, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” But he did not know what he was saying.
34 While he was still speaking, a cloud came and cast a shadow over them, and they became frightened when they entered the cloud.
35 Then from the cloud came a voice that said, “This is my chosen Son; listen to him.”
36 After the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. They fell silent and did not at that time tell anyone what they had seen.

From your post however I get the feeling you’re referring to the saints we commonly pray to today. If this is correct you won’t find mention of them in Scripture since most were still alive at the time. We’d need to look at history of the past 2,000 years. There is more than ample history of intercession in the past two millennia. Just research the apparitions of Mary. Look into the Lady of Guadalupe. She appeared to the Aztecs and led to the conversion of 6 million Aztecs. Most Protestants don’t accept the apparitions of Mary; the Catholic Church investigates most of the prominent ones but only “approves” few. There are several good books on the subject, but most are written by Catholics. I’d suggest one written by Scott Hahn, he’s a convert. shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-B0418.html?L+scstore+jppq0351ff717371+1102176484

 

[Tom]

YAQUBOS:

I can’t visit a dead saint today and ask him something, unless I find a way to communicate with the dead. So my question was: how can you talk to the dead?

Where do you go to “visit” God, and how do you converse with Him? You can of course visit Him, just come to a Catholic Church, He is there in body, blood, soul, and divinity, every day, but I doubt you were referring to “there”.

 

[MariaG]

Hi Edwin,
I did not post any Scripture since Tom posted so much in post # 5. In those verses, it refers to a couple where the prayers are presented in heaven by saints, and the rest are simply people asking for prayers. For Catholics, there is absolutely no difference in asking those who have died alive in Christ and those who are living but united with Him on earth. :bible1: Mk 12:26-27 tells us that God is the God of the living not the dead. So we are not asking anyone dead to pray for us, just those who are living in Christ.

More perfectly united. Do you believe that the more you “walk the walk” the more Holy you become or do you believe that the moment you were saved you were completely sanctified and made completely Holy? Catholics believe sanctification is a process.bible1: Phil 2:12) The more we walk with Christ, the holier we become. Eventually, we can become so united that the Holy Spirit will guide us and we will hear His guiding as clearly as the apostles did.

If this holiness does not happen while we walk this earth, the process must be completed before we stand in His presence. It may be instantaneous or it may take awhile. There is no “time limit” specified in the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Therefore, once in heaven, we will be more perfectly united with Christ because we will finally be completely Holy.

Some of the others can explain this better than I can. But I hope this helps a little.

We must be cousins. The three of us MariaG JimG and edwinG

Nah, we’re brothers and sisters

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[edwinG]

Tantum ergo:

men.
Obviously, after Adam and Eve’s sin NO ONE was able to enter HEAVEN until Christ’s sacrifice–correct? Equally obviously, NOBODY who enters HELL will ever leave–correct? So, WHERE WERE ALL THE GOOD PEOPLE BETWEEN ADAM AND JESUS? They weren’t in hell. They weren’t in heaven. They WERE somewhere–waiting–until THEY WERE JUSTIFIED/ CLEANED through Christ’s sacrifice.

Hi Tantum,
Matthew13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind. 48 which, when it was full, they drew to the shore and sat down an gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.
Matthew 22 The parable of the Wedding Feast is also a sorting and a throwing out where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Many of the kingdom of heaven parables have a sorting and a casting out. I can not be sure if the same is said of the kingdom of God parables.
Can you comment on this please.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

2) Why does our Lord use Moses and Elijah to discuss “His exodus”? He certainly COULD speak directly to His Father. Did He “need” to use intercession? maybe we need to address that.

Hi Tom,
Thanks again for your thought provoking post. I haven’t thought about this intercession as Moses and Elijah had come to earth. They certainly were representing the Law and the Prophets. Do you think they were also witnesses to Jesus as were Peter, James and John and then the Father Speaking.
I also want to ask you about the sentence above. "He certainly could speak directly to His Father. Now this is new to me also, if I am reading you correctly. I look at Jesus as fully man in this aspect. His Father showed no partiality. Jesus was taught by the Holy Spirit, not by God Himself nor by the Synogogues. ( As we can be taught by the Holy Spirit as well because we are meant to follow in His footsteps.) Moses spoke directly to God but I did not think Jesus did this. He was in the new age ( heralded by John the Baptist) and accessed His Father through the Holy Spirit.
This is another point I want to discuss.
In intercession ( the standard kind) , I believe the benefit of intercession is as much for the person making intercession, as well as for the receipient. It is an exercise in love, it pleases God and becomes treasure for us in heaven. It builds our faith, etc. For all these reasons, I dont see any benefit for the intercessor in heaven, as they are already there. God doesnt need intercessors. He has the Holy Spirit and Jesus, He knows before we do what we want and He is ready to help us. I can’t see the reasoning behind saints being intercessors.
On a carnal level, if 1 billion people prayed to Mary for intercession after some bad happening here on earth, how would see cope? Does everyone in heaven have the power of God?
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

Tom:

I suppose the best way to explain the prayers “to” the saints would be Biblical reference. These are some of the more (NT) relevant:
James 5:16 - Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Revelation 5:8 - And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Revelation 8:3 - And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Revelation 8:4 - And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
The saints of course are already with God in heaven, their prayers and intercession are by virtue of being heavenly, perfect.

Hi Tom,
I’m smiling. How long did that post take you. I hope you have a copy so you can sling it around for people.
I looked at James 5:16 and I looked at the verses immediately before it and after it. Before it it talks about the prayers for the sick and after it talks about Elijah’s pray to withold the rain for 3 years and six months and then for the rain to come. In all of this I can not find any thing that would lead me to think this referred to praying to saints in heaven to intercede for us. I know you must have a reason but I can not see it. " the word " righteous" but then it refers to Elijah and his righteousness and Elijah was on earth when he prayed in earnestness.
The perfectly heavenly prayers are to me prayers from the saints on earth. They are perfect because of the help we receive from the Holy Spirit who is our intercessor.
Now where are we up to.
Chirst be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Tom:

Where do you go to “visit” God, and how do you converse with Him? You can of course visit Him, just come to a Catholic Church, He is there in body, blood, soul, and divinity, every day, but I doubt you were referring to “there”.

God is everywhere, while dead saints are not. Being everywhere is one of God’s Attributes.

I converse with God in prayer, because He hears my prayers:

“O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.” ( Psalm 65:2 )

But how can you talk to dead saints?

When I asked this, you answered about how we can converse with God!!! Does this mean that dead saints are God???

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Sarah_Jane]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

God is everywhere, while dead saints are not. Being everywhere is one of God’s Attributes.

I converse with God in prayer, because He hears my prayers:

“O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.” ( Psalm 65:2 )

But how can you talk to dead saints?

When I asked this, you answered about how we can converse with God!!! Does this mean that dead saints are God???

In Love,
Yaqubos†

The saints are not dead! They are with God in heaven and they pray for us.

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith” (Hebrews 12:1-2).

*“*And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;” (Revelation 5:8)

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Sarah Jane:

The saints are not dead! They are with God in heaven and they pray for us.

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith” (Hebrews 12:1-2).

*“*And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;” (Revelation 5:8)

Believe me: I BELIEVE THAT THE DEAD SAINTS ARE NOT DEAD FOR GOD. But they are actually dead FOR US.

They give us good witnessing to the trumphs of faith by their example that we read ( see Hebrews 11 ). And many faithful children of God give that witnessing in our days.

Our prayers that are addressed TO GOD are presented to God in Heaven ( see Revelation 5:8 ) - What does this have to do with our topic?..

So God hears our prayers.

But the question remains:

How can you talk to dead saints? For they are dead FOR YOU, although they are alive FOR GOD.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Sarah_Jane]

Our prayers that are addressed TO GOD are presented to God in Heaven ( see Revelation 5:8 ) - What does this have to do with our topic?..

The saints in heaven pray God for us. They present our prayers to God.

How can you talk to dead saints? For they are dead FOR YOU, although they are alive FOR GOD.

They are not dead for me. They are also the Body of Christ. They are alive with God in heaven.

 

[Tom]

edwinG:

I haven’t thought about this intercession as Moses and Elijah had come to earth. They certainly were representing the Law and the Prophets. Do you think they were also witnesses to Jesus as were Peter, James and John and then the Father Speaking.

Moses and Elijah are there for the benefit of the Apostles (and of course us), they represent the transition of the Old covenant to the New covenant in Jesus. Notice that immediately after God the Father speaks, “this is my Son, listen to Him”, Moses and Elijah are gone, as is the Old covenant, replaced by the New. We are now instructed by God to follow, not the Old, but the New, His Son, Jesus. The important thing, to me, in regards to intercession is the conversation between the three. If it were just to represent the change from old to new, there would have been no need for, not only conversation, but to let us know there was “content” in the conversation. There was indeed intercession, at least in my mind. God is telling me, He is using the saints, (Moses and Elijah in this case) for intercession. It’s a gift from God. Do we “need” to accept this gift? Well, no, I suppose we could say no to God, but why would we? Can we go directly to God? Sure! Just as I can pray to God, I really don’t “need” anyone else to pray for me do I? From the 20 or so verses I quoted in the previous post, it’s apparent, at least to me again, that God has given us this gift. He wants us to pray for each other doesn’t He? Why? Do we really need any one to pray for us? Isn’t our prayer enough? Will God not listen to me alone? Do I need you to pray for me? I guess I don’t really need you to pray for me, but I sure do appreciate it if you do.

 

[Tom]

edwinG:

I also want to ask you about the sentence above. "He certainly could speak directly to His Father. Now this is new to me also, if I am reading you correctly. I look at Jesus as fully man in this aspect. His Father showed no partiality. Jesus was taught by the Holy Spirit, not by God Himself nor by the Synogogues. ( As we can be taught by the Holy Spirit as well because we are meant to follow in His footsteps.) Moses spoke directly to God but I did not think Jesus did this. He was in the new age ( heralded by John the Baptist) and accessed His Father through the Holy Spirit.

I was referring to the context of intercession. He did not need to use intercession, He could have prayed directly to the Father.

 

[Tom]

edwinG:

In intercession ( the standard kind) , I believe the benefit of intercession is as much for the person making intercession, as well as for the receipient. It is an exercise in love, it pleases God and becomes treasure for us in heaven. It builds our faith, etc. For all these reasons, I dont see any benefit for the intercessor in heaven, as they are already there.

I have never looked at intercession in that light. Do you suppose there is no joy for a saint in heaven to do Gods work? I think as an act of pure love, it would be done for no gain on the saint’s part.

 

[Tom]

edwinG:

God doesn’t need intercessors.

Absolutely correct. He doesn’t need them, they aren’t for Him, they are His gift to us.

 

[Tom]

edwinG:

Does everyone in heaven have the power of God?

Great question. We don’t really know do we? We’re told we will be one with Him, just what does that mean? Will we become a “part” of God, as His love? I know we will not become God, but I don’t think anyone can say exactly what we will do. To say He can’t use us I feel is limiting His prerogative. He certainly can if He chooses to. How He uses us is also His choice isn’t it? We just sit here trying to figure it out. Edwin, you certainly have some wonderful questions, thank you.

 

[jimmy]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

You say that the dead saints are alive in God. Very right! They are alive for GOD, but not for us. I can’t visit a dead saint today and ask him something, unless I find a way to communicate with the dead. So my question was: how can you talk to the dead?

And you say that those saints will rise in Christ. AMEN! But in fact, the resurrection didn’t happen yet. So until then, how can you talk to the dead saints?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

One of the most interesting verses in the bible to me, is the one where God says, Before Abraham was, I AM." I find that very interesting because God uses the present tense when he says I AM and the past tense for Abraham.

God is outside of time. Heaven is not part of time. Therefore the ressurection has happened.

 

[jimmy]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

God is everywhere, while dead saints are not. Being everywhere is one of God’s Attributes.

I converse with God in prayer, because He hears my prayers:

“O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.” ( Psalm 65:2 )

But how can you talk to dead saints?

When I asked this, you answered about how we can converse with God!!! Does this mean that dead saints are God???

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Because God makes it possible for us to do so. Just because they are not Omnipresent does not mean they can’t hear our prayers. God is also omnipotent, meaning he is all powerfull, so he can make our prayers heard by the saints if he feels like it.