intercession

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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

Believe me: I BELIEVE THAT THE DEAD SAINTS ARE NOT DEAD FOR GOD. But they are actually dead FOR US.

They give us good witnessing to the trumphs of faith by their example that we read ( see Hebrews 11 ). And many faithful children of God give that witnessing in our days.

Our prayers that are addressed TO GOD are presented to God in Heaven ( see Revelation 5:8 ) - What does this have to do with our topic?..

So God hears our prayers.

But the question remains:

How can you talk to dead saints? For they are dead FOR YOU, although they are alive FOR GOD.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
The saints are more alive than you and me. Just because you can not see them does not mean that they are not alive. You can not see God, but you assume he is alive. Just because you don’t hear an audible response does not mean they can’t hear you.
 
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edwinG:
God doesnt need intercessors.
True, but God also does not need us, but he allows us to live. He allows the saints to participate in our salvation and to spread his word. All the souls in Heaven desire to do Gods will in every way. This is only according to Gods will.
 
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Tom:
I have never looked at intercession in that light. Do you suppose there is no joy for a saint in heaven to do Gods work? I think as an act of pure love, it would be done for no gain on the saint’s part.
Hi Tom,
Thought provoking stuff Tom. It is terrific to be stimulated like this?
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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Tom:
Where do you go to “visit” God, and how do you converse with Him? You can of course visit Him, just come to a Catholic Church, He is there in body, blood, soul, and divinity, every day, but I doubt you were referring to “there”.
Hi Tom,
Your being cheeky, Tom. I did ask this question about our personalities, but it was a dud question. I am very pleased to see your personality shine through. I hope you dont mind my adding that a christian never visits God. A Christian lives with him, having in God’s temple, his body, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, both residing in the heart.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG
 
Tom said:
2) Why does our Lord use Moses and Elijah to discuss “His exodus”? maybe we need to address that.

Hi Tom,
There are two witnesses to come in Revelation. Do you see a foretelling of Jesus’s witnesses during Tribulation.
Christ be with you
Walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
 
Peace be with you!
Sarah Jane:
They are not dead for me. They are also the Body of Christ. They are alive with God in heaven.
If you think they are alive for you, this means you are making yourself God… Whatever, let’s try to clarify this:

What is death? ( I mean, when someone you know dies, does anything change? ) Is death a reality?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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Tom:
I have never looked at intercession in that light. Do you suppose there is no joy for a saint in heaven to do Gods work? I think as an act of pure love, it would be done for no gain on the saint’s part.
Read the following carefully:

“But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith” ( Philippians 1:22-25 )

If Paul leaves the flesh, he is no more able to be fruitful for the Church on earth. If he remains in flesh, he can work by the Grace of God for the progress of the believers and their joy in the faith.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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jimmy:
One of the most interesting verses in the bible to me, is the one where God says, Before Abraham was, I AM." I find that very interesting because God uses the present tense when he says I AM and the past tense for Abraham.

God is outside of time. Heaven is not part of time. Therefore the ressurection has happened.
Again: Resurrection happened FOR GOD, but not FOR US. We are still waiting the resurrection, and with us the dead saints who died with the HOPE of resurrection.

We are all limited. Only God is ETERNAL.

By the way, I hope you weren’t saying that the resurrection happened for us, because that would be a heresy, as the Bible says clearly:

“men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.” ( 2 Timothy 2:18 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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jimmy:
Because God makes it possible for us to do so. Just because they are not Omnipresent does not mean they can’t hear our prayers. God is also omnipotent, meaning he is all powerfull, so he can make our prayers heard by the saints if he feels like it.
  1. This is a pure human philosophy.
  2. If God is hearing our prayers and then making them known to the dead saints, this means that our prayers are heard by God, and not by the saints themselves. So why does God need to tell the dead saints to pray for us the prayers He already heard of us directly? After all, those are OUR prayers TO HIM, not the prayers of the dead saints.
    By the way: is it honest in this case to talk in prayer in the name of a saint, while we know that there is none hearing us in the first place other than God?
    Imagine someone talking to you, and giving the name of your friend who is standing behind you… What would be your feeling?
In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
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MariaG:
Hi Edwin, For Catholics, there is absolutely no difference in asking those who have died alive in Christ and those who are living but united with Him on earth. :bible1: Mk 12:26-27 tells us that God is the God of the living not the dead. So we are not asking anyone dead to pray for us, just those who are living in Christ.
Hi Maria,
Thank you for this reply, I now do understand completely why you pray to those who have died to earth but are living in Jesus. You have not convinced me of the righteousness of this position. I do not agree with your scriptural support. I find nothing at all in James to make me change my mind and the heavenly quotes can just as easily apply to our “the saints on earth, before we died” prayers as to those saints who are already in heaven. Do you have any references for saints praying in heaven for other reasons or do you think the only reason they pray is for intercession. The other problem with praying to the saints in heaven is judgment. You have passed judgment on a person who has died. Admittedly, in favour of the person, but that is still judgment. Where does the bible say we have the authority to pass judgment on those who have died. Our wisdom is only in part. Can we give God a list of names and say " Dear God is Fred, Alice,etc Ok" and who is “we”? Can you ask God and if not why? This line of thought opens a can of worms.
More perfectly united. Do you believe that the more you “walk the walk” the more Holy you become
Yes and No, the more you walk the walk, the more use you become to Him to spread His love on earth among His people.The more your faith grows and so on, until you come to some part of your life you dont want to surrender to Christ. That may be over eating. sex or a hobby or sport or anything that takes up too much of your time and does not edify the church here on earth.
or do you believe that the moment you were saved you were completely sanctified and made completely Holy?
Yes, but now I have to try to stay that way, by following the Holy Spirit. That is all Jesus had, The Holy Spirit, He did not learn from the synagogues. His sole teacher was the Holy Spirit. Do you believe Jesus was fully man. If so , if He can do this why can’t you? Don’t tell me you can’t do it because someone else cant do it. That is a cop out.Jesus didnt come to earth then follow the synagogues teachings even though he came especially for the Jewish people,even though he said for us to follow their teaching.
In fact by following the Holy Spirit you are fullfulling the law in total, not in part. (ie the sabbath, eating , hand washing etc)
Catholics believe sanctification is a process.(:bible1: Phil 2:12) The more we walk with Christ, the holier we become. Eventually, we can become so united that the Holy Spirit will guide us and we will hear His guiding as clearly as the apostles did.
It is the Holy Spirit who guides you to Jesus. You dont choose Him. He choose you. By coming to Jesus, you have already followed the Holy Spirit, if you are really His and not a tare, and this process does not stop if you allow it to continue. You dont wait until you are " so united". Now I will never ask anyone to change his christian religion, but in the Roman catholic church you miss out on the benefits and joy of the Holy Spirit because firstly you listen to the Roman Catholic church. As the jews listened to the official church in their day.
Nah, we’re brothers and sisters:D
Love it, nice one Maria.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG
 
Sarah Jane:
The saints are not dead! They are with God in heaven and they pray for us.

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith” (Hebrews 12:1-2)
Totally agree Sarah Jane. Additionally my bible says their lives are a witness to us of perseverance.The saints in heaven are witnesses to our struggle but it does not say participants.

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;” (Revelation 5:8)*
Sarah, are you a Christian, a saint, and do you pray to God, and where are your prayers. That is where they are. These prayers are cries to God for justice etc from those when they were on earth and those still on earth. Now comes the boomerang, to the evil, the cries of the saints on earth. Tell me Sarah, do you need help from the saints in heaven to decide who is causing affliction to you on earth. No you dont , you cry out to God Help me Help me X is being terrible. You dont need the saints in heaven to tell you X is hurting you.
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwin
 
Sarah Jane:
The saints in heaven pray God for us. They present our prayers to God.
Hi Sarah Jane,
Can you explain this position. That God needs someone to present the prayers to Him. Personally I pray to Him so I hope my prayers are going to Him. I pray in Jesus’s Holy name. Now I realise catholics pray to saints and Mary, but the bible clearly says the Holy Spirit intercedes for us on earth and Jesus Christ in heaven. Do you really believe that Christ and the Holy Spirit are not capable? Tom and I are talking about the benefits of prayers of intercession. I hope you are reading them and please join with us in talking about this aspect.
Sarah Jane, I dont want to shake your faith. I believe we are all where Christ wants us. But from my beautiful experiences, I am realising that the fuller joy of being a christian is not really discovered until you knowingly walk in the Spirit.
I love you Sarah Jane and want the best for you
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG
 
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Tom:
I have never looked at intercession in that light. Do you suppose there is no joy for a saint in heaven to do Gods work? I think as an act of pure love, it would be done for no gain on the saint’s part.
Hi Tom,
This is really interesting, I think I have already answered this out of order but I want to add to it. Now all people have work to do for God. I as a servant of God have been given work; as are all people I suppose. ( another great thread)
Now we are frequently told that the saints in heaven are resting. We know that some work of the elders is to worship God. Angels are messengers etc. Do we know of the work of those ( apart from rest) saints in heaven. I realise you hold they are too act as intercessors but I am yet to be persuaded of your position, but maybe you have an idea of other “things” they do. I mean, when the kindgom is set up we will all have work to do as it is a community, a kingdom. I feel the work is the same as that laid out by Moses father in law to Moses as he led the Israelites.
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG
 
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jimmy:
Because God makes it possible for us to do so. Just because they are not Omnipresent does not mean they can’t hear our prayers. God is also omnipotent, meaning he is all powerfull, so he can make our prayers heard by the saints if he feels like it.
Hi Jimmy
Rev 6:9When He opened The fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth.?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who would be killed as they were, was completed."

There are many instances of the “saints” resting. I have not yet been convinced that they are working.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
 
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jimmy:
True, but God also does not need us, but he allows us to live. He allows the saints to participate in our salvation and to spread his word. All the souls in Heaven desire to do Gods will in every way. This is only according to Gods will.
Hi jimmy
God may not need us but He is making a temple for Himself, and because of His love He will allow us (His temple) to share in His glory. I recognise that He allows us to live. Could you give me scripture please about " He allows the saints to participate in our salvation and to spread His word".
Thanks jimmy
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

Read the following carefully:

“But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith” ( Philippians 1:22-25 )

If Paul leaves the flesh, he is no more able to be fruitful for the Church on earth. If he remains in flesh, he can work by the Grace of God for the progress of the believers and their joy in the faith.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
Hi Yaqubos,
I really like the way you support your words with apt scripture. It makes it so much easier for me to understand and accept, reject or put into the concrete mixer, for more stirring and sifting etc.
thank you for joining in,
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!
Read the following carefully:
“But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith” ( Philippians 1:22-25 )
If Paul leaves the flesh, he is no more able to be fruitful for the Church on earth. If he remains in flesh, he can work by the Grace of God for the progress of the believers and their joy in the faith.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
The act of intercession is not a self fulfilling one. True, we may derive benefit from it but, we don’t do it for benefit. God uses angels, men and saints for intercession, certainly men can derive benefit from acting as intercessors for God, but angels and saints receive no such benefit, they need nothing more, they are already in the presence of God so much more fully than you and I.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you
 
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edwinG:
Hi Sarah Jane,
Can you explain this position. That God needs someone to present the prayers to Him. Personally I pray to Him so I hope my prayers are going to Him. I pray in Jesus’s Holy name. Now I realise catholics pray to saints and Mary, but the bible clearly says the Holy Spirit intercedes for us on earth and Jesus Christ in heaven. Do you really believe that Christ and the Holy Spirit are not capable? Tom and I are talking about the benefits of prayers of intercession. I hope you are reading them and please join with us in talking about this aspect.
Sarah Jane, I dont want to shake your faith. I believe we are all where Christ wants us. But from my beautiful experiences, I am realising that the fuller joy of being a christian is not really discovered until you knowingly walk in the Spirit.
I love you Sarah Jane and want the best for you
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG
Your parents and friends pray for you by the Holy Spirit. The saints in heaven are with us the Body of Christ. They pray God for us like your friends pray for you.
 
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edwinG:
in the Roman catholic church you miss out on the benefits and joy of the Holy Spirit because firstly you listen to the Roman Catholic church.
Those of us who follow the Catholic Church do indeed have the Holy Spirit in our lives, as was promised by our Lord in Jn 14.
 
Originally Posted by edwinG
Hi Sarah Jane,
Can you explain this position. That God needs someone to present the prayers to Him. Personally I pray to Him so I hope my prayers are going to Him. I pray in Jesus’s Holy name. Now I realise catholics pray to saints and Mary, but the bible clearly says the Holy Spirit intercedes for us on earth and Jesus Christ in heaven. Do you really believe that Christ and the Holy Spirit are not capable? Tom and I are talking about the benefits of prayers of intercession. I hope you are reading them and please join with us in talking about this aspect.
Sarah Jane, I dont want to shake your faith. I believe we are all where Christ wants us. But from my beautiful experiences, I am realising that the fuller joy of being a christian is not really discovered until you knowingly walk in the Spirit.
I love you Sarah Jane and want the best for you
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

Edwin, your arguments rest on the mistaken belief that we feel the use of intercessors is something that God needs. That is totally false. He doesn’t need intercessors, they are His gift to us. I don’t “need” to be speaking to you about this, God has given us this friendship. He doesn’t need it, it’s His gift to us. Can we reject it? Sure! I could close the ‘puter and forget the name of EdwinG, why would I? God has given you to me and me to you as His children, the brothers and sisters of His Son, Jesus. Can we reject each other? Sure we can, as we can reject the use of His saints as intercessors. I think your problem with accepting saints as intercessors is that you’re trying to justify “why” God uses saints, whereas I simply accept that He does.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you
Tom
 
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