intercession

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm

These passages condemn, Quiji boards, Tarot Cards, and séances if anything; we are asking the people who stand before God to present our petitions to him, we are not asking them to reveal the Future. Do not take the passage out of context. Then again, how do you know that passage is the Word of God? Once again, on Yom Kippur, the Jews will ask the intercession of their deceased relatives, are they going against the Torah? Why do you ask your friends and family members to pray for you, are your alive friends everywhere?

This passage show that dead people are not everywhere, so some people think about calling their spirits.

That passage is Word of God, AS YOU KNOW but do not believe.

The Jews, or anyone, who pray to dead, are doing wrong. Jews are not God!!!
Again: Jews didn’t believe in Jesus as Christ. What if you believe what they believe about Jesus , too? In denying Jesus, are they going against the Torah?

I ask my friends to pray for me by TALKING PERSONALLY TO THEM, because I can see them, meet them, talk to them, send them a mail, call them… I don’t need to pray to them. I don’t ask a person living in China to pray for me WITHOUT sending him a mail or calling him. I don’t even ask my neighbor like that. I don’t begin to pray: “please, my friend, pray for me”. Be certain that he will know NOTHING about what I asked him!!! Unless you believe in New Age beliefs: for they say you can talk to a person like that…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Dear Gene, I certainly like to have a good dialogue with you. I will answer your question by His Grace, and then we will see what the Lord will lead us to.
Gene C.:

When you read and study the Scriptures, do you consult any other tools such as commentaries? In other words, do you check to see what other believers have written about the text you are contemplating? If the answer to this question is yes, which authors do you read? Only evangelical or also Catholic and Orthodox? If only evangelical, do you only consult Bible scholars who are still living or do you go back into the history of the church to see what those who’ve lived before our generation have to say about the text?

First of all, WITH PRAYER I read the Scripture AS IT IS. I try to understand what the words are saying. Then I try to find other passages in Scripture talking about the same thing. I compare and see what the Spirit is teaching us in those different passages. Then I also read some commentaries by different Christian authors: not just Romans, not just so called “Orthodox”, not just Protestant. I also see what the fathers say. Of course, I don’t do this for every passage, but I don’t finish understanding the passage without understanding what all teachers in the Church say about it.
BUT, the Bible remains for me the first and the last authority in the Spirit.

In addition, I have many conversations with many Christian denominations members. I have many times talked to priests and pastors about passages in the Bible.

I am not writing here just whatever comes to my head. I have a big responsability as Christian, to not change the meaning of God’s Holy Word.
Gene C.:

Just to let you know who I am, I am new to this Forum. I was raised Catholic, received Christ by faith at the age of 20, and have spent the last 31 years in evangelical Christianity. Now I have come to see the fallacy of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide and am doing a heavy-duty study on Catholic dogma. I am about to re-enter the Catholic Church. I know how you are looking at the Scriptures because I have done the same thing myself.

When you received Jesus Christ by faith, did you receive the Holy Spirit?

Do you have LIFE, and Peace and Joy eternal?
Gene C.:

I hope to have a healthy dialogue with you.

Blessings,
Gene
New York City

May the Lord Jesus, our Beloved, Bless you!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobiscvm!

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

This passage show that dead people are not everywhere, so some people think about calling their spirits.

The Church is one body in Christ. The dead go to God. The dead are with God. God is everywhere. The dead are everywhere, through the Holy Spirit, who is God.

YAQUBOS:

That passage is Word of God, AS YOU KNOW but do not believe.

To make an affective argument, you have to provide evidence. You have yet to tell me how you know this is the Word of God. How can your arguments be affective, if you can not tell me how you know what is scripture and what is not.
YAQUBUS:

The Jews, or anyone, who pray to dead, are doing wrong. Jews are not God!!!

Again: Jews didn’t believe in Jesus as Christ. What if you believe what they believe about Jesus , too? In denying Jesus, are they going against the Torah?

All of the Apostles and Mary were Jewish, so were the first believers on WhitSunday. They celebrated Yom Kippur and Hanukah, which I can’t believe, because it’s not in the Bible; well, it’s in my Bible.
YAQUBUS:

I ask my friends to pray for me by TALKING PERSONALLY TO THEM, because I can see them, meet them, talk to them, send them a mail, call them… I don’t need to pray to them. I don’t ask a person living in

China to pray for me WITHOUT sending him a mail or calling him. I don’t even ask my neighbor like that. I don’t begin to pray: “please, my friend, pray for me”. Be certain that he will know NOTHING about what I asked him!!! Unless you believe in New Age beliefs: for they say you can talk to a person like that…

In Love,

Yaqubos†

Once again, if you ask them to do something, you are indeed praying to them. We are united to Christ. The Holy Spirit is with us, I’m sorry you doubt the Holy Spirit.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

The Church is one body in Christ. The dead go to God. The dead are with God. God is everywhere. The dead are everywhere, through the Holy Spirit, who is God.

Any Scripture talking about what you imagine here?

This is pure human philosophy. Philosophies like this can lead you to many heresies. For instance, take this philosophy:

The Church is one body. Christians in China are one body with Christians in America. All Christians are in Christ. So all Christians have the Holy Spirit. So all Christians are everywhere. So Americans can pray to Christians living in China, and they will hear their prayers.

Good philosophy, no? If you don’t accept it, then you are not believing in the Holy Spirit, right?
Psalm45:9:

To make an affective argument, you have to provide evidence. You have yet to tell me how you know this is the Word of God. How can your arguments be affective, if you can not tell me how you know what is scripture and what is not.

We may talk about the Bible in another topic. If you don’t accept the Bible as Word of God, then we will have to talk to you as we talk with pagans.
Psalm45:9:

All of the Apostles and Mary were Jewish, so were the first believers on WhitSunday. They celebrated Yom Kippur and Hanukah, which I can’t believe, because it’s not in the Bible; well, it’s in my Bible.

All of the Apostles and Christians from Jewish origin didn’t make animal sacrifices like other Jews. All of them believed that Jesus is the Christ, although the Jews didn’t believe that. All of them believed that the Law cannot save them.
Psalm45:9:

Once again, if you ask them to do something, you are indeed praying to them. We are united to Christ. The Holy Spirit is with us, I’m sorry you doubt the Holy Spirit.

So pray to all Christians on earth, for they have the Holy Spirit…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS/:

All of the Apostles and Christians from Jewish origin didn’t make animal sacrifices like other Jews. All of them believed that Jesus is the Christ, although the Jews didn’t believe that. All of them believed that the Law cannot save them.

So pray to all Christians on earth, for they have the Holy Spirit…

In Love,
Yaqubos†
What about before the Sacrifice of the Cross? I do pray that all recieve the gift of the Spirit.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobiscvm!

YAQUBOS:

We may talk about the Bible in another topic. If you don’t accept the Bible as Word of God, then we will have to talk to you as we talk with pagans.

Why can’t you just give me an answer?

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm!

Why can’t you just give me an answer?

What do you know about the Bible? I have to explain this to you according to what you can understand.

As you are a pagan, so I need to explain all the matter from the beginning. You never experienced how the Bible is the LIFE-GIVING Word of God. How can I just explain it in one word?

Therefore, I say we must talk about this in another thread, not here.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobiscvm!

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

What do you know about the Bible? I have to explain this to you according to what you can understand.

As you are a pagan, so I need to explain all the matter from the beginning. You never experienced how the Bible is the LIFE-GIVING Word of God. How can I just explain it in one word?

Therefore, I say we must talk about this in another thread, not here.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

You’re not answering the question, why is that?

 

[Suudy]

edwinG:

Yes, but now I have to try to stay that way, by following the Holy Spirit. That is all Jesus had, The Holy Spirit, He did not learn from the synagogues. His sole teacher was the Holy Spirit.

I’ve seen this a couple of times in this thread, and it confuses me. The implication that Jesus needed the Holy Spirit is foreign to me. As I understand it, the Holy Spirit wasn’t even sent to us yet. True, the Holy Spirit exists in the Trinity, but I don’t know if there was any direct connection to teaching Jesus.

It seems to me that this sort of distinction between Jesus and the Holy Spirit denies the hypostatic union. Jesus is fully human and fully divine. The quote above that Jesus’ “sole teacher was the Holy Spirit” implies that he is unable to learn without the Holy Spirit. By his nature, he knew.

Also, while the Holy Spirit may have been present to Jesus, I don’t see him present to mankind until Pentecost. References to the Holy Spirit teaching before then does not seem to follow. While it can be argued that because of the Trinity the Holy Spirit existed and cooperated with Jesus, I don’t see things occuring in the same way modern evangelicals invoke the use of the Holy Spirit (i.e. as a teacher).

Just my 2 cents worth,
Suudy

 

[Gene_C]

To Yaqubos,

Thanks for the quick reply!

Yes, I will be happy to share my story with you in a little more detail. Since this thread is already long and I am changing the topic, how about if I start a new thread?

I will call it…From Catholic to Protestant to Catholic. In this thread, we will share our stories, briefly, and then talk about the doctrines of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Edwing has expressed an interest so he and anyone else, of course, can join in.

By the way, since the weekend is upon us, I will start the thread today and see how far we go but I will not be able to pick it up agin until Monday, Eastern Standard Time.

Blessings,
Gene C.
New York City

 

[Suudy]

YAQUBOS:

1. This is a pure human philosophy.

What is? The concept of omnipresence? You’ve already acknowledged earlier that God is everywhere. Hence, you’ve acknowledged that omnipresence is a truth. Being that it is true, this isn’t a an argument for rejection

YAQUBOS:

1. If God is hearing our prayers and then making them known to the dead saints, this means that our prayers are heard by God, and not by the saints themselves. So why does God need to tell the dead saints to pray for us the prayers He already heard of us directly? After all, those are OUR prayers TO HIM, not the prayers of the dead saints.

I disagree with the wording of the previous poster. I don’t think it is God “hearing our prayers and then making them known to the” saints. I think of it rather as God has the ability to grant saints the ability to hear our prayers. I don’t see the prayers as going through God then to the saints.

However, if that is the way God chose to operate, then I still don’t see an issue. True, God already heard the prayers. But what is the harm in an extra prayer? If I had cancer and prayed daily for God to heal me, why bother asking others to pray for me as well? God has already heard my prayer, so there is no need for another.

It is a larger issue than just me and God. It is a community. It is about us and God. By praying to the saints, we are keeping ourselves in the community. We acknowledge those that are part of the body of Christ. Prayer for others that are alive, as well as the prayer of the saints, make up the large body of believers.

YAQUBOS:

By the way: is it honest in this case to talk in prayer in the name of a saint, while we know that there is none hearing us in the first place other than God?

You start with the assumption that no-one can hear us in the first place other than God. As a Catholic, I do not believe that. So there is no dishonesty in this case. If I believed that there was no-one listening, and continued to pray, I agree, that would be dishonest.

YAQUBOS:

Imagine someone talking to you, and giving the name of your friend who is standing behind you… What would be your feeling?

Using your own term, this “is a pure human philosophy.” Your analogy assumes a saint (necessarily in heaven) would feel the same as we would. If I read you correctly, you think the saint would feel hurt by such an act of God. If they need God to hear our prayers, why should they feel badly? In fact, I think that being in the beautific vision of God, they would know that our intentions are not to hurt, but are of genuine need.

Suudy

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!
Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm!

You’re not answering the question, why is that?

Repeating this question again, after what I explain, shows how your relation with God is, and how Pharisee you are in that question.

Jesus didn’t anser the Pharisees sometimes. But He told them things that they must have understood if they just wanted to accept the Truth.

And here I told you some important things, and you repeat the question…

“Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Or you will also be like him.” ( Proverbs 26:4 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace!

Repeating this question again, after what I explain, shows how your relation with God is, and how Pharisee you are in that question.

Jesus didn’t anser the Pharisees sometimes. But He told them things that they must have understood if they just wanted to accept the Truth.

And here I told you some important things, and you repeat the question…

“Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Or you will also be like him.” ( Proverbs 26:4 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

But how do you know that is God’s word, did it fall from the sky? Likewise, we tell you over and over again that your passage from Deuteronomy condemns asking the deceased for information about the future. We tell you over and over again, that they are alive in Heaven and that we are still united to them, as scripture states.

 

[dcdurel]

edwinG:

Firstly , we have God, in the form of the Holy Spirit helping us(in intercession) in the first instance, then God, in the form of Jesus Christ, ( in intercession) helping us at the next stage. God is the next stage. First the Holy Spirit, secondly Jesus Christ and God Himself, and He tells us that He is our redeemer. I dont see any room for anyone else in the heavenly realm. Note in Hebrews it says that Christ ALWAYS LIVES to make intercession. Do we need more than the Holy Spirit and Jesus to intercede. What more can be done that they can not do.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 You are making an assumption when you say, "what more can be done that they can not do."   For you are assuming that God does not want us to use other intercessors. God wants us all to share in the work of salvation.
  The bible clearly says God wants us to use other intercessors.  Numerous people have quoted scrpture where God is please that we ask others to interceed for us. In fact God often will not answer our prayers unless we use an intercessor.

For example, when the Isrealites were being bitten by snakes in the desert, there were over 1 million people praying to God for help from the serpents. But, it wasn’t until they asked Moses to pray for them that they were healed. Thus, there were over 1 million people praying directly to God, but he did not answer a single prayer. I was only after they asked an intercessor, Moses, to pray for them that God answered their prayers.
The book of James says the same thing, of how it did not rain for 3 years. Surely the millions of Jews were praying to God for rain, but it was not until Elijah prayed for them that God sent rain.
Thus, it is clear from Scripture that God often will NOT answer our prayers, unless we use a holy and righteous intercessor

intercessors with the Father, rather that going directly to God.

 

[GaryZak]

Let me give you a SIMILE:

HE’s MAD at you, dont’ TALK TO HIM, He’s NOT LISTENING!

Possible:
EX 34:14 You shall not worship any other god, for the LORD is ‘the Jealous One’; a jealous God is he.

DEUT 4:24 For the LORD, your God, is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Yet ONLY He can help you with YOUR CURRENT PROBLEM, family or medical, or whatnot?

BESEECH HIM somehow, go ahead?

JMS 5:15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

JMS 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

I give you this clue from Saint James…

PS 42:3 My being thirsts for God, the living God. When can I go and see the face of God?

DEUT 31:18 Yet I will be hiding my face from them at that time only because of all the evil they have done in turning to other gods.

DEUT 32:20 'I will hide my face from them," he said, "and see what will then become of them. What a fickle race they are, sons with no loyalty in them!

 

[edwinG]

Suudy:

I’ve seen this a couple of times in this thread, and it confuses me. The implication that Jesus needed the Holy Spirit is foreign to me. As I understand it, the Holy Spirit wasn’t even sent to us yet. True, the Holy Spirit exists in the Trinity, but I don’t know if there was any direct connection to teaching Jesus.

It seems to me that this sort of distinction between Jesus and the Holy Spirit denies the hypostatic union. Jesus is fully human and fully divine. The quote above that Jesus’ “sole teacher was the Holy Spirit” implies that he is unable to learn without the Holy Spirit. By his nature, he knew.

Also, while the Holy Spirit may have been present to Jesus, I don’t see him present to mankind until Pentecost. References to the Holy Spirit teaching before then does not seem to follow. While it can be argued that because of the Trinity the Holy Spirit existed and cooperated with Jesus, I don’t see things occuring in the same way modern evangelicals invoke the use of the Holy Spirit (i.e. as a teacher).

Just my 2 cents worth,
Suudy

Hi Suudy,
Thanks for joining in. I am still looking for the exact quote. When I find it I will send you a message. I will probably put it into a thread somewhere, but you may miss that, There are several passages that elude to this teaching but there is a definitive one which I am still looking for.
Chirst be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

dcdurel:

You are making an assumption when you say, “what more can be done that they can not do.” For you are assuming that God does not want us to use other intercessors. God wants us all to share in the work of salvation.
The bible clearly says God wants us to use other intercessors. Numerous people have quoted scrpture where God is please that we ask others to interceed for us. In fact God often will not answer our prayers unless we use an intercessor.
For example, when the Isrealites were being bitten by snakes in the desert, there were over 1 million people praying to God for help from the serpents. But, it wasn’t until they asked Moses to pray for them that they were healed. Thus, there were over 1 million people praying directly to God, but he did not answer a single prayer. I was only after they asked an intercessor, Moses, to pray for them that God answered their prayers.
The book of James says the same thing, of how it did not rain for 3 years. Surely the millions of Jews were praying to God for rain, but it was not until Elijah prayed for them that God sent rain.
Thus, it is clear from Scripture that God often will NOT answer our prayers, unless we use a holy and righteous intercessor

intercessors with the Father, rather that going directly to God.

Hi dcdure,
Was Moses alive at the time, Was Elijah alive at the time. Yes and Yes, Did they pray to Abraham ,No way. For all you have said not once have you quoted a scripture passage to support praying **to **those saints who are in paradise. But you have seen passages where praying to "dead’ people has not been fruitful. How can you be so stubborn. Yes God wants intercession. Every one agrees. There is no need to prove that. Intercession is vital, especially for the one who humbles himself and ask for help and also for the one who makes intercession. How do you humble yourself by asking a dead person to pray for you. In this instance humility is not required, a portion of the ingredient is missing. So God has Jesus and the Holy Spirit making intercession for us. And He knows what we are praying for before we pray. The important ingredients are humility by the person asking and the love by the intercessor.
The saints in heaven are resting.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[Psalm45_9]

edwinG:

Hi dcdure,
Was Moses alive at the time, Was Elijah alive at the time. Yes and Yes, Did they pray to Abraham ,No way. For all you have said not once have you quoted a scripture passage to support praying **to **those saints who are in paradise. But you have seen passages where praying to "dead’ people has not been fruitful. How can you be so stubborn. Yes God wants intercession. Every one agrees. There is no need to prove that. Intercession is vital, especially for the one who humbles himself and ask for help and also for the one who makes intercession. How do you humble yourself by asking a dead person to pray for you. In this instance humility is not required, a portion of the ingredient is missing. So God has Jesus and the Holy Spirit making intercession for us. And He knows what we are praying for before we pray. The important ingredients are humility by the person asking and the love by the intercessor.
The saints in heaven are resting.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

It does not say anywhere Bible that they did not pray to Abraham. It does not say anywhere in the Bible that we can not pray to the Saints in Heaven. Again and again, they are alive, in Christ’s one body. Revelation shows that they are not resting.

 

[MariaG]

Hi Edwin,

Sorry, I seem to have lost the post. I did not see it again until today.

Back on post #50 you responded to some things. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I feel the Scripture I and Tom showed, completely shows intercession of saints on earth as well as in heaven. I do not believe the saints in heaven are just resting. This is based on Scripture and Tradition. History shows us that the 1st century Christians prayed for and asked for prayers of those who had died in Christ.

It is the Holy Spirit who guides you to Jesus. You dont choose Him. He choose you. By coming to Jesus, you have already followed the Holy Spirit, if you are really His and not a tare, and this process does not stop if you allow it to continue. You dont wait until you are " so united". Now I will never ask anyone to change his christian religion, but in the Roman catholic church you miss out on the benefits and joy of the Holy Spirit because firstly you listen to the Roman Catholic church. As the jews listened to the official church in their day.

I in no way think I have to wait to get the Holy Spirit’s guiding. I just was saying that because when I choose to sin, it clouds the lines of communication. I am unable to “hear” the Holy Spirit’s guiding clearly. The Holy Spirit is my constant guide. I just don’t always hear Him as clearly as the Apostles did.

Most people live out their faith incompletely. Jesus, the Apostles and some Saints throughout time are our inspiration. We can live a Holy life. We can be completely guided by the Holy Spirit, but the sad truth is most Christians fail to allow the Holy Spirit to guide them to the extent that is possible.

Which brings me to a conclusion of our talk for awhile. I have found that I am spending too much time learning about my faith and not enough time living it. I am going to cut down my time here dramatically. I did mark the thread this time so I could find it again. Time to go pray some more instead of spending time talking about how to pray.

Walk in Love Edwin,
Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Gene C.:

To Yaqubos,

Thanks for the quick reply!

Yes, I will be happy to share my story with you in a little more detail. Since this thread is already long and I am changing the topic, how about if I start a new thread?

I will call it…From Catholic to Protestant to Catholic. In this thread, we will share our stories, briefly, and then talk about the doctrines of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Edwing has expressed an interest so he and anyone else, of course, can join in.

By the way, since the weekend is upon us, I will start the thread today and see how far we go but I will not be able to pick it up agin until Monday, Eastern Standard Time.

Blessings,
Gene C.
New York City

You opened that new thread in the Apologetics forum, but now it is in Meet & Greet forum. Just if you didn’t know…

In Love,
Yaqubos†