intercession

[dcdurel]

edwinG:

Hi dcdure,
Was Moses alive at the time, Was Elijah alive at the time. Yes and Yes, Did they pray to Abraham ,No way. For all you have said not once have you quoted a scripture passage to support praying **to **those saints who are in paradise. But you have seen passages where praying to "dead’ people has not been fruitful.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif edwinG

 One step at a time.

We have thus established from scripture that God often does not answer our prayers unless we use a holy and righteous intercessor.
Next we must establish what the Church means by “praying to the saints”. If you look in the Catechism, or even the simple Baltimore Catechism, we “pray” to the saints for two reasons,

1. To ask their intercession
2. To honor them.
   When we ask their intercession, they pray to God for us, just as Moses did. When we honor them, we honor God, because it is only through His grace that they were able to do the things we honor them for. And whenever we honor a member of the body of Christ, we honor Christ Himself. Look in Corinthians for this teaching.
   In the places where the bible condemned “talking to dead people” it was because the person was not praying to them, that is, he was not asking their intercession,(asking them to pray to God for them), nor honoring them. He was trying to by pass God and get information from them. That is why it was condemned.
   Now, since when James teaches the necessity of intecessors, he says,
   ------------- James 5:16 -------------
   “The prayer of a righteous man has great
   power in its effects.”
   And he gives the example of Elijah, who was righteous
   That was why God answered the prayers of Moses, when he interceeded for the people, for he was righteous.
   And similarly, God told the friends of Job, to go to Job, and he would pray for them, for Job was righteous, and also Jesus changed water into wine for Mary, because she was holy, righteous and His mother, whereas, He certainly would have not done it for anyone else, except Joseph, if he was there.

 

[dcdurel]

Thus, scripture illuminates the teaching of the Church that holy and righteous people have great power of intercession.
Next, we know that those in heaven hear our prayers, for Jesus says,
Lu 15:7 “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over
one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.”
How can there be “joy in heaven”, unless they hear our prayers of repentance, either directly, or through God’s power. Either way,
the scriptures again are a witness to the Church teaching that those in heaven hear our prayers, even when we are praying directly to God. This is because heaven is not far away, it is a state of being in union the God.
St. Paul says the same in Hebrews. In Hebrews chap 11 he speaks of the Old Testament saints, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, David, Samuel, etc. Then in Chap twelve he says of those witnesses,
----------- Hebrews 12:1 ----------
1 ¶ Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of
witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us"
Thus, those in heaven are not far away, they are “surrounding” us, like a cloud. They know what is going on here on earth. That is why we have statues of the saints in our Churches. They are to remind us of the “cloud of witnesses” that are praying with us and for us at mass.
So again, scripture is a witness to the Church teaching, which existed before the NT was written, that those in heaven are surrounding us and can hear our prayers.
Now, since God loves to answer the prayers of intecessors who are holy and righteous, who is more holy and righteous than those in heaven. St. Paul write of those in heaven:
Heb 12:23 “and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect”
Thus, those in heaven are “just men made perfect”.
Now, since scripture illuminates the Church teaching that God wants us to use holy and righteous intecessors, and that those in heaven are surrounding us and hear our prayers, it follows that those on earth should pray to them and ask their intercession.
Let us see if that was what the early Christians did.
----------- Hebrews 12:22-23-
“But you have come to Mount Zion…and to a judge who is God of all… and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant.”
The only way we can come to “a just judge who is God of all” and “to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant” is through prayer.
Thus, we can see that the early New Testament Christians prayed to a judge who is God of all, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant. But, notice who else they had “come to” in those verses. “and to innumerable angels in festal
gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect”
Thus, the Hebrews had not only come to Jesus, and God, but the angels in festal gathering (which is why we have images of angels in our churches) and “to the assembly of the first-born” and to “just men made perfect”.
Thus, the Hebrews were were praying, not only to a judge who is God of all, and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant, but to angels, and to “just men made perfect”. Because the God loves us to pray to holy and righteous men by asking their intercession and by honoring them.
The reason Christians get so mixed up, and think that God does not want us to use holy and righteous intecessors, is because they learn the gospel from men, from people like Luther, Calvin, etc, who have no authority from Jesus. Jesus told us to listen to the Church He founded, upon Peter and the apostles. There is no place in the bible that He said to reject the authorities He appointed in His Church, and instead believe the teachings of Luther and Calvin.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

It does not say anywhere Bible that they did not pray to Abraham. It does not say anywhere in the Bible that we can not pray to the Saints in Heaven. Again and again, they are alive, in Christ’s one body. Revelation shows that they are not resting.

It does not say anywhere in the Bible that it is a sin to destroy the World Trade Center… So are those terrorists blameless?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

It does not say anywhere in the Bible that it is a sin to destroy the World Trade Center… So are those terrorists blameless?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

“Thou shalt not kill.” (Exodus 20:13)

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

“Thou shalt not kill.” (Exodus 20:13)

But it doesn’t say: “Thou shalt not kill those who are in the World Trade Center”

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

But it doesn’t say: “Thou shalt not kill those who are in the World Trade Center”

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Thou shalt not kill means thou shalt not kill.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Thou shalt not kill means thou shalt not kill.

“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” ( Deuteronomy 18:10-11 )

You must not call up the dead means you shall not call up the dead!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” ( Deuteronomy 18:10-11 )

You must not call up the dead means you shall not call up the dead!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Only you’re taking it out of context, we can not ask the Saints for information, we don’t, we ask them to pray for us.

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” ( Deuteronomy 18:10-11 )

You must not call up the dead means you shall not call up the dead!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Pax Vobiscvm!

You are quoting scripture, but let’s use a more literal translation, the King James Bible:

There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. (Deuteronomy 18:10-11)

Necromancer:

1. 
   *]The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead **in order to predict the future. **
   *]Black magic; sorcery.
   *]Magic qualities.
   
   
   

   Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

   The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

   www.dictionary.com
   
   Basically God is restating the First commandment, “Thou shalt have no gods before me.” (Exodus 20:3) We ask the Saints to present our petitions to God, not tell us the future.

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” ( Deuteronomy 18:10-11 )

You must not call up the dead means you shall not call up the dead!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Given the information provided, rather "You must not call up the dead to predict the future, means, you must not call up the dead to predict the future. " Which of course, we do not do.

In Love,
Psalm45:9

 

[dcdurel]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” ( Deuteronomy 18:10-11 )
You must not call up the dead means you shall not call up the dead!
In Love,
Yaqubos†

Lets read the RSV (a Protestant bible).
It says"--------- Deuteronomy 18:10 ----------
10 There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, 11 or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer."

www.dictionary.com says
nec·ro·man·cy: “The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.”

I repeat, the Church teaches that praying to the saints is honoring them and asking their intercession. No where does the Church define praying to the saints as “necromancy”, that is communicating with the dead in order to predict the future.

Jesus certainly talked to dead people in the transfiguration, but since He did not trying to predict the future when doing so, it was not sinful.  
The only way we can come to God is through prayer.  St. Paul gives examples in  Hebrews 12:22-23-

“But you have come to Mount Zion…and to a judge who is God of all… and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant.”
The only way we can come to “a just judge who is God of all” and “to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant” is through prayer.
Thus, we can see that the early New Testament Christians prayed to “a judge who is God of all”, and to “Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant.” But, notice who else they had “come to” in those verses. “and to innumerable angels in festal
gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"
Thus, the Hebrews had not only come to Jesus, and God in prayer, but to the angels in festal gathering (which is why we have images of angels in our churches) and “to the assembly of the first-born” and to ** the spirits of just men made perfect”**
Thus, the Hebrews were were praying, to “just men made perfect”. Because the God loves us to pray to holy and righteous men by asking their intercession and by honoring them.
If the Christians in the New Testament were praying to ** the spirits of just men made perfect"** , why don’t Protestant Christians do the same today???
If God wants us to ask the intercession of Holy and righteous men, and since no one is more holy than those in heaven, “the spirits of just men made perfect” , then why don’t Protestants honor these ** just men made perfect"** and ask their intercession, just like the Hebrews were doing ???

Was St. Paul wrong?
Is the Bible wrong?

Of course not. The problem is that Protestantism is based on the teachings of Luther and Calvin. Jesus said we must listen to the authorities of the Church that HE founded. No where does He say to listen to Luther or Calvin.
Do you believe Jesus when He said to listen to His Church, or do you believe in Luther or Calvin when they said to reject the Church Jesus founded. Who is your faith in??

 

[edwinG]

Psalm45:9:

It does not say anywhere Bible that they did not pray to Abraham. It does not say anywhere in the Bible that we can not pray to the Saints in Heaven. Again and again, they are alive, in Christ’s one body. Revelation shows that they are not resting.

Hi Psalm45:9
Thank you for joining in the forum.
Daniel12:13 But you , go your way till the end: for you shall rest , and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."
oops I have just received a phone call. I am off to work for a few months My time will be limited.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[Psalm45_9]

Yet the Book of Revelation shows that they are praising God and offering our prayers. In the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, they are talking to each other. They’re not asleep. If they’re offering our prayers, then they’re aware of what’s going on here.

 

[edwinG]

Psalm45:9:

It does not say anywhere Bible that they did not pray to Abraham. It does not say anywhere in the Bible that we can not pray to the Saints in Heaven. Again and again, they are alive, in Christ’s one body. Revelation shows that they are not resting.

Hi Psalm45:9,
Thanks for the post. I could not live my life by accepting those things which the bible did not expressly forbid. I agree they are alive, not dead, as their really never is death. But their is a “death” or resting from this life on earth. So I agree they are alive. But for me , as I can not find any source of Gods wanting us to contact them , I believe we should let them rest.
Daniel12:13 “But you, go your way till the end, for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”
! Samauel 28:15 " Now Samuel said to Saul, " Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
Revelations 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: Blessed are the dead who died in the Lord from now on” Yes says the Spirit" that they may rest from their labors and their works follow them."
Proverbs 24:15 Do not lie in wait O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous; Do not plunder his resting place.

Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

dcdurel:

.

They are to remind us of the “cloud of witnesses” that are praying with us and for us at mass.
So again, scripture is a witness to the Church teaching, which existed before the NT was written, that those in heaven are surrounding us and can hear our prayers.
Now, since God loves to answer the prayers of intecessors who are holy and righteous, who is more holy and righteous than those in heaven. St. Paul write of those in heaven:
Heb 12:23 “and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect”
Thus, those in heaven are “just men made perfect”.
Now, since scripture illuminates the Church teaching that God wants us to use holy and righteous intecessors, and that those in heaven are surrounding us and hear our prayers, it follows that those on earth should pray to them and ask their intercession.
Let us see if that was what the early Christians did.
----------- Hebrews 12:22-23-
“But you have come to Mount Zion…and to a judge who is God of all… and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant.”
The only way we can come to “a just judge who is God of all” and “to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant” is through prayer.
Thus, we can see that the early New Testament Christians prayed to a judge who is God of all, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant. But, notice who else they had “come to” in those verses. “and to innumerable angels in festal
gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect”
Thus, the Hebrews had not only come to Jesus, and God, but the angels in festal gathering (which is why we have images of angels in our churches) and “to the assembly of the first-born” and to “just men made perfect”.
Thus, the Hebrews were were praying, not only to a judge who is God of all, and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant, but to angels, and to “just men made perfect”. Because the God loves us to pray to holy and righteous men by asking their intercession and by honoring them.
The reason Christians get so mixed up, and think that God does not want us to use holy and righteous intecessors, is because they learn the gospel from men, from people like Luther, Calvin, etc, who have no authority from Jesus. Jesus told us to listen to the Church He founded, upon Peter and the apostles. There is no place in the bible that He said to reject the authorities He appointed in His Church, and instead believe the teachings of Luther and Calvin.

Hi dcdurel,
Thanks for the great post. Boy you sure put a lot of work into it. I cant believe in the teachings of Luther and Calvin as I have never read them and not listened to people speak of them. I am where Christ has me, no where else. I agree with the many things you said, I believe the saints in heaven are aware, but none of those passages say to pray to them. I believe of the power of prayer by righteous men or a righteous man. I believe these things but I dont see where we pray to them, who have died to earth and are resting. Please explain the resting which is in the bible so plainly stated?
" follows that" to me is man’s wisdom. If it was in the bible I would accept it. All of the position outlined in the message is based on a linkage that is not scriptural. Why not accept the scripture, they are resting. That is scripture, not mans wisdom.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwin G

 

[edwinG]

Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm!

You are quoting scripture, but let’s use a more literal translation, the King James Bible:

There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. (Deuteronomy 18:10-11)

Necromancer:

1. 
   *]The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead **in order to predict the future. **
   *]Black magic; sorcery.
   *]Magic qualities.
   
   http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=necromancer
   
   Basically God is restating the First commandment, “Thou shalt have no gods before me.” (Exodus 20:3) We ask the Saints to present our petitions to God, not tell us the future.

1. 
   Hi Psalm45:9
   I use a NKJV bible " Or one who calls up the dead"
   Calling up the dead is calling up the dead. It doesnt matter why. There is no list of do’s and don’ts.
   12 " For all these things are an abomination to the Lord"
   Why skate on thin ice?
   Jesus makes intercession for you.
   The Holy Spirit makes intercession for you
   All of the living saints who you humble yourself to will make intercession for you. Is your faith so small? Why risk being an abomination to the Lord for the sake of interpretation of one word.
   Christ be with you
   walk in love
   edwin G
   Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
   walk in love
   edwin.

 

[edwinG]

Psalm45:9:

Yet the Book of Revelation shows that they are praising God and offering our prayers. In the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, they are talking to each other. They’re not asleep. If they’re offering our prayers, then they’re aware of what’s going on here.

Hi Psalm45:9
Every one agrees they are not asleep. Resting is the word used in the bible. Everyone agrees that the saints in heaven are aware of our position and are cheering us on.
I feel intercession is necessary for the person asking to humble himself and ask and for the love shown by the person who intercedes for us. God really doesn’t need us for anything. What do the saints in heaven gain. They are their resting. ( and of course cheering us on but not interfering)
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[Psalm45_9]

It still states they our offering our prayers, while they’re “resting” in the beatific vision.

 

[Psalm45_9]

edwinG:

Hi Psalm45:9
I use a NKJV bible " Or one who calls up the dead"
Calling up the dead is calling up the dead. It doesnt matter why. There is no list of do’s and don’ts.
12 " For all these things are an abomination to the Lord"
Why skate on thin ice?
Jesus makes intercession for you.
The Holy Spirit makes intercession for you
All of the living saints who you humble yourself to will make intercession for you. Is your faith so small? Why risk being an abomination to the Lord for the sake of interpretation of one word.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwin G
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwin.

I’m sorry, I can not agree with you on that, it states specifically we are not to know the future. That’s what the entire passage states, do not take it out of context. History shows that the church interpreted it this way and so did the Jews, with their Yom Kippur intercessory prayers.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Only you’re taking it out of context, we can not ask the Saints for information, we don’t, we ask them to pray for us.

“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” ( Deuteronomy 18:10-11 )

I am not talking here about the mediums, nor the spiritists, but the one who calls up the dead.

By the way: why are you taking “Thou shalt not kill” out of the context of the Bible? Didn’t the Jews kill many people by the Will of God? So can’t the terrorists destroy the World Trade Center without any problem?

In Love,
Yaqubos†