intercession

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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” ( Deuteronomy 18:10-11 )

I am not talking here about the mediums, nor the spiritists, but the one who calls up the dead.

By the way: why are you taking “Thou shalt not kill” out of the context of the Bible? Didn’t the Jews kill many people by the Will of God? So can’t the terrorists destroy the World Trade Center without any problem?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
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Pax Vobiscvm!

I can not agree with you.

“There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.” (Deuteronomy 18:10-11)

Divination:


  1. *]**The art or act of foretelling future events or revealing occult knowledge by means of augury or an alleged supernatural agency. **
    *]An inspired guess or presentiment.
    *]Something that has been divined.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Divination

    Observer of times: fortune telling

    Witch:

    1. *]**A woman claiming or popularly believed to possess magical powers and practice sorcery. **
      *]A believer or follower of Wicca; a Wiccan.
      *]A hag.
      *]A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
      *]Informal. A woman or girl considered bewitching.
      *]One particularly skilled or competent at one’s craft: “A witch of a writer, [she] is capable of developing an intensity that verges on ferocity” (Peter S. Prescott).
 
Enchanter:


  1. *]One that delights or fascinates.
    *]**A sorcerer or magician. **

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=enchanter

    Charmer:

    1. *]One that charms, especially a disarmingly attractive person.
      *]One who casts spells; an enchanter or magician.

      http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Charmer

      Consulter:

      1. *]

        1. *]To seek advice or information of: consult an attorney.
          *]To refer to: consulted a telephone directory for the number.

          *]To take into account; consider: consult one’s checkbook before making a major purchase.

          http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Consulter

          Consulter of spirits=necromancer
 
Wizard:

  1. *]**One who practices magic; a sorcerer or magician. **
    *]A skilled or clever person: a wizard at math.
    *]Archaic. A sage.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Wizard

    Necromancer:

    1. *]The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead **in order to predict the future. **
      *]**Black magic; sorcery. **
      *]**Magic qualities. **

      Now put all these together and what does Deuteronomy 18:10-11 say? “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:3) We are not to know the future, that’s all. History shows that this is how the church interpreted it. Does it say anywhere in the Bible that Slavery is OK. People used it to both defend and object to Slavery. Is abortion OK, the Bible does not say anything, besides, “Thou shalt not Kill.” What we have here is a moral dilema. And the folloy of Sola Scriptura.
 
Peace be with you!

Where does it say in the Bible that Yoga is wrong?

Can we say that Yoga is not wrong?

The Bible says clearly that we cannot talk to dead people. And we read also:

“Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.” ( Psalm 73:25 )

Answer this “Whom?”

And the Bible says:

“O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.” ( Psalm 65:2 )

God is the one who hears our prayers.

“So I will bless You as long as I live;
I will lift up my hands in Your name.” ( Psalm 63:4 )

In whose name are you lifting up your hands?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

Where does it say in the Bible that Yoga is wrong?

Can we say that Yoga is not wrong?
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I’m so proud of you, you’re thinking like a Catholic! If you are practicing Yoga only for physical excercise it is fine. However, if you are practicing the spirituality of it, then it violates the first commandment.
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YAQUBOS:
The Bible says clearly that we cannot talk to dead people. And we read also:

“Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.” ( Psalm 73:25 )
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I have shown otherwise. I already explained the Psalm, Revelation shows that they are offering our prayers to God, showing that they are aware of what is going on here.
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YAQUBOS:
Answer this “Whom?”

And the Bible says:

“O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.” ( Psalm 65:2 )

God is the one who hears our prayers.

“So I will bless You as long as I live;
I will lift up my hands in Your name.” ( Psalm 63:4 )

In whose name are you lifting up your hands?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
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Indeed, God does here our prayers. It does not say we cannot ask someone else to pray for us.
P.S. where does the Bible say abortion is wrong?
P.P.S. How do you know that is scripture you’re quoting?
 
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MariaG:
Hi Edwin,

Sorry, I seem to have lost the post. I did not see it again until today.

Back on post #50 you responded to some things. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I feel the Scripture I and Tom showed, completely shows intercession of saints on earth as well as in heaven. I do not believe the saints in heaven are just resting. This is based on Scripture and Tradition. History shows us that the 1st century Christians prayed for and asked for prayers of those who had died in Christ.

I in no way think I have to wait to get the Holy Spirit’s guiding. I just was saying that because when I choose to sin, it clouds the lines of communication. I am unable to “hear” the Holy Spirit’s guiding clearly. The Holy Spirit is my constant guide. I just don’t always hear Him as clearly as the Apostles did.

Most people live out their faith incompletely. Jesus, the Apostles and some Saints throughout time are our inspiration. We can live a Holy life. We can be completely guided by the Holy Spirit, but the sad truth is most Christians fail to allow the Holy Spirit to guide them to the extent that is possible.

Which brings me to a conclusion of our talk for awhile. I have found that I am spending too much time learning about my faith and not enough time living it. I am going to cut down my time here dramatically. I did mark the thread this time so I could find it again. Time to go pray some more instead of spending time talking about how to pray. 🙂

Walk in Love Edwin,
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
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Hi Maria,
Agreed to disagree. That we are in Christ is all that is important. After that comes rewards, our position in the Kingdom of God. I am aiming to fulfill my work for Christ, and I can only do this with His strength, so I have to be weak so His strength can shine through. LOL it is not easy and takes practise, but faith in His abilitiy is the key for me. I am pleased you are going back to spend more time in prayer. I also noted how my understanding picked up when I started a daily worship regime. I can remember when I first read Revelations a few short years ago. I was taken back by the worship and it sat uncomfortably with me and even on re-reading for a few times but now here I am practising worshiping and now recommending it. Way to go Maria.
my love to you and your family
keep walking in love in Christ,
edwinG
PS my second semester started this morning. At about 8:20 the school phoned and asked me why I wasnt at school. My class started at 8:00. I answered and said no one told me and I was waiting on a phone call. so funny the different way of doing things in different cultures. so my time too has been drastically reduced.
 
Pax Vobiscvm!

(Deuteronomy 18:10-11)

Sola which Scriptura?

There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. (NASB)

There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. (NKJV)

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. (NIV)

Let none be found amoung you that maketh his son or his daughter to go through fire, or that saith witchcraft, or a regarder of times, or a marker of flying souls, or a sorcerer , or a charmer, or that counselleth with spirits, or a soothsayer, or that asketh counsel of the dead. (Geneva Bible)

There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire, or who uses divination, or is a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. (AMP)

There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. (RSV)

There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. (KJV)

Consult:

    1. *]To seek advice or information of: consult an attorney.
      *]To refer to: consulted a telephone directory for the number.

      *]To take into account; consider: consult one’s checkbook before making a major purchase.

      http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=consult

      Counsel:

      1. *]The act of exchanging opinions and ideas; consultation.
        *]Advice or guidance, especially as solicited from a knowledgeable person. See Synonyms at advice.
        *]A plan of action.
        *]Private, guarded thoughts or opinions: keep one’s own counsel.
        *]A lawyer or group of lawyers giving legal advice and especially conducting a case in court.

        dictionary.reference.com/search?q=counsel

        We are not to ask the dead for information relating to the future.

        (Compared to others, the New American Standard and New King James Bibles are loose translations.)
 
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YAQUBOS:
The Bible says clearly that we cannot talk to dead people. And we read also:
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Pax Vobiscvm!

“Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did. And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber. And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them. Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them. But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning **him **to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.” (Acts 9:36-40)

St. Peter calls upon the dead by name, and she is raised. How can he do this in light of Deuteronomy 18:10-11? Because he is not asking Tabitha to reveal the future.

In love, Psalm45:9
 
Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:
Pax Vobiscvm!

“Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did. And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber. And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them. Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them. But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning **him **to the bodysaid, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.” (Acts 9:36-40)

St. Peter calls upon the dead by name, and she is raised. How can he do this in light of Deuteronomy 18:10-11? Because he is not asking Tabitha to reveal the future.

In love, Psalm45:9
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Ok. Then ask God to bring saints **to life **again. And then you will be able to ask them to pray for you. Do not talk to them and ask them things BEFORE they are alive in flesh. When Peter kneeled down and prayed, he didn’t talk to Tabitha, but to God. God gave the girl life and sent back her spirit. And ONLY THEN, after the spirit came by the command of GOD, Peter told the girl to arise.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

Ok. Then ask God to bring saints **to life **again. And then you will be able to ask them to pray for you. Do not talk to them and ask them things BEFORE they are alive in flesh. When Peter kneeled down and prayed, he didn’t talk to Tabitha, but to God. God gave the girl life and sent back her spirit. And ONLY THEN, after the spirit came by the command of GOD, Peter told the girl to arise.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
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Pax Vobiscvm!

You’re starting to get it, it is through the Holy Spirit!

What did Peter say? “Tabitha arise!” Not, “God, make her arise.” Althouth I am sure that was his prayer.

It looks like he talked to a corpse to me, invoking her soul by name.

“Or one who calls up the dead.” (Deuteronomy 18:11)???
 
Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:
Pax Vobiscvm!

You’re starting to get it, it is through the Holy Spirit!

What did Peter say? “Tabitha arise!” Not, “God, make her arise.” Althouth I am sure that was his prayer.

It looks like he talked to a corpse to me, invoking her soul by name.

“Or one who calls up the dead.” (Deuteronomy 18:11)???
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Peter prayed to God and asked Him to bring back the spirit of the girl. God gave the girl life again. Did the spirit come because of the call of Peter, or because God gave her life already?

By the way: are you basing your prayers to the saints on such passages? Then why don’t you call all the dead to their bodies again to ask them to pray for you?..

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

Peter prayed to God and asked Him to bring back the spirit of the girl. God gave the girl life again. Did the spirit come because of the call of Peter, or because God gave her life already?

By the way: are you basing your prayers to the saints on such passages? Then why don’t you call all the dead to their bodies again to ask them to pray for you?..

In Love,
Yaqubos†
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Pax Vobiscvm!

I wasn’t using this passage from Acts to show intercession. I was using it to show Dueteronomy 18:10-11 in the proper context, St. Peter called upon the dead. Now that we see we can talk to the dead, as long as we don’t ask for information, where does it say we can not ask a Saint, here or in Heaven, to pray for us? Indeed Tabitha was not dead, she was alive in Christ’s one body, the same one that I am in. The Saints are not dead.
 
Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:
Pax Vobiscvm!

I wasn’t using this passage from Acts to show intercession. I was using it to show Dueteronomy 18:10-11 in the proper context, St. Peter called upon the dead. Now that we see we can talk to the dead, as long as we don’t ask for information, where does it say we can not ask a Saint, here or in Heaven, to pray for us? Indeed Tabitha was not dead, she was alive in Christ’s one body, the same one that I am in. The Saints are not dead.
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Read 1 Samuel 15. And then tell me if God told you that you can talk to the dead.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Pax Vobiscvm!
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

Read 1 Samuel 15. And then tell me if God told you that you can talk to the dead.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
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You finally got it! That is seeking information from the dead through a necromancer. St. Peter did not do this, so he did not go against Deuteronomy 18:10-11, neither do we. I’m glad that you’re finally seeing Deuteronomy 18:10-11 in its proper context.
 
Psalm45:9:
Pax Vobiscvm!

You finally got it! That is seeking information from the dead through a necromancer. St. Peter did not do this, so he did not go against Deuteronomy 18:10-11, neither do we. I’m glad that you’re finally seeing Deuteronomy 18:10-11 in its proper context.
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Yo! That’s night the right passage, you’re going to get burned.
 
Pax Vobiscvm!

I apologize again, I thought you were refering to 1 Samuel 28:3-20. Let us now analyze the Key points of 1 Samuel 15:

“Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’" (1 Samuel 15:3) “But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.” (1 Samuel 15:9) ‘But Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of the sheep in my ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?” Saul said, “They have brought them from the Amalekites, for the people spared the best of the sheep and oxen, to sacrifice to the LORD your God; but the rest we have utterly destroyed.”’ (1 Samuel 15:14-15) Samuel said, ‘Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice**, And to heed than the fat of rams**. “For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He has also rejected you from being king.”’ (1 Samuel 15:22-24)

Saul is reprimanded for disobeying God.
 
(continued)

Now let us look at the Hail Mary:

Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women

“Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” (Luke 1:28)

and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God,

“Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:42-43)

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen

“And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man. And the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him… Pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.” (James 5:15-16)

What this is basically saying is, “I pray thee Mary, pray for me.” We are not praying to her in the wrong context that you are thinking of.

“There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.” (Deuteronomy 18:10-11)

In the first two parts of the Hail Mary, we’re quoting the Gospel according to St. Luke. The last part follows the teaching within St. James’ Epistle. What does Deuteronomy 18:10-11 say? We are not to bring up the dead in order to predict the future? What are we doing? We are pray her (not pray *to *her) to present our petitions, thus not going against Deuteronomy, just like St. Peter did not, “turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise” (Acts 9:40) There is no violation of Deuteronomy 18:10-11
 
(continued)

“O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.” ( Psalm 65:2 )
“So I will bless You as long as I live;
I will lift up my hands in Your name.” ( Psalm 63:4 )

In the long run, the petition is presented to God, through Mary, so it does not violate these psalms.

“Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.” ( Psalm 73:25 )

‘When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”’ (Revelation 6:9-10)

When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (Revelation 5:8)

Revelation 5:8 and 6:9-10 show the Saints are aware of what is going on here. As you stated, the Elders are symbolic of the communion of Saints (Thank you). Given Numbers 14:13-20, Revelation 5:8 is not a symbol, so there is no violation of Psalm 73:25.

I’m keeping talley now: there is no violation of Deuteronomy 18:10-11,Psalm 65:2, Psalm 63:4, and Psalm 73:25. Thus making 1 Samuel 15 not applicable to the topic and Catholics perfectly obedient to God.

In love,
Psalm45:9
 
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dcdurel:
Thus, it is clear from Scripture that God often will NOT answer our prayers, unless we use a holy and righteous intercessor rather that going directly to God.
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Hi Dcdure,
At last I see your quandry. The bible shows, as you pointed out, that where a people fail to seek God’s will, it is possible He will turn His face away and not answer their prayers. Thus we have an apparent need for some holy and righteous person to intercede for us.Hence the disire for the right to pray to the saints in heaven, because the Roman Catholic church cant find any living on earth during each generation.
My answer to this is look at your self. If ever you have the need to pray to a past saint, then you are being convicted by the Holy Spirit. You, YOU, should do something, not pray to some "resting’ saint. Start obeying the Holy Spirit, stop looking for loopholes. I do realise you dont view them as loopholes but you have been so close for so long, your eyes have become accustomed to the view. Your praying to the dead saints is a means to avoid self.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG
 
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edwinG:
Hi Dcdure,
At last I see your quandry. The bible shows, as you pointed out, that where a people fail to seek God’s will, it is possible He will turn His face away and not answer their prayers. Thus we have an apparent need for some holy and righteous person to intercede for us.Hence the disire for the right to pray to the saints in heaven, because the Roman Catholic church cant find any living on earth during each generation.
My answer to this is look at your self. If ever you have the need to pray to a past saint, then you are being convicted by the Holy Spirit. You, YOU, should do something, not pray to some "resting’ saint. Start obeying the Holy Spirit, stop looking for loopholes. I do realise you dont view them as loopholes but you have been so close for so long, your eyes have become accustomed to the view. Your praying to the dead saints is a means to avoid self.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG
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Hi edwinG!

It’s good to see you again. I know you view them a loopholes, but if we were not to ask for intercession of Saints in Heaven, then God would have been more specific on the subject. History shows the early church believed in the intercession of the Saints in Heaven. If people asked for the intercession of the Saints and there never was an answer, then no one would be doing it today. But people’s prayers are being answered, through the intercession of the Saints in Heaven. Miracles have occured, that are attributed to the intercession of the Saints in Heaven. There is no other explanation besides that they did intercede and God heard our prayer. It cannot be the Devil who is causing these miracles for, “How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.” (Mark 3:23-24) As 1 Samuel 15 states, if we were being disobedient, then God would not answer our prayers at all. God Bless.

Psalm45:9
 
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