Interfaith marriage/relationship advice needed, please!

[YinYangMom]

BillP:

HappyCatholic01,

I don’t believe your GF had any objection to RCIA or conversion. I do believe she was converting because of you. And the fact that she was willing to convert FOR YOU shows me how committed she was to your relationship. SHE was willing to become Catholic because that’s what it took to build a life with you.

I think you hit the nail on the head. If she attends RCIA and converts before your marriage she won’t be able to realize her dream of getting married in her own church. Hence her resistence to attending RCIA at this time.

Is it possible that your insistence on her attending RCIA is based on you not wanting to get married in her church despite the fact that you appear to have at one point agreed (at least in principal) to do so?

You’ve also mentioned that you have some “trust issue”. You are questioning whether she will follow through on her promises, to convert, to raise the children Catholic etc.

IMHO it appears from here that those trust issues are unwarranted. As far as I’ve read in your postings, she’s given you no reason to suspect that she is being untruthful or deceiving about her intentions.

Is it possible that those “trust issues” are just ammunition to justify getting her to RCIA, and thus getting your own way about the wedding?

From my perspective I see this girl being willing to make some pretty Major League sacrifices to be with you but asking for a bit more time. I don’t see much flexibility on your part.

What’s your rush? If she needs time, she needs time. If she needs the two of you be further along in discernment before she converts why is that an issue with you?

He wasn’t asking her to convert BEFOREthe engagement or wedding.

He was asking her to attend RCIA training (education) before the engagement.

You can go through RCIA without actually converting. There is no obligation to her to be initiated into the Faith at Easter Vigil.

He’s about to ask her to enter into a Catholic marriage. Not a protestant version, a bonafide Catholic covenantal sacramental eternal committment.

How can she possibly say “Yes” to his proposal if she doesn’t know what that YES means, the obligations thereof?

She may go through RCIA and realize she can’t bring herself to practice NFP for the entire marriage, or raise the children to believe in Mary being the Queen of Heaven and Earth, or something else…when that happens it would give her good reason to pause and reflect about whether or not she can indeed convert after the wedding and therefore accept his proposal.

She may also come out of RCIA fully on board, ready to be initiated at Easter Vigil.

He’s already agreed to be married in her church, if she wants it that way.

She has nothing to lose by attending RCIA.

 

[BillP]

YinYangMom:

He wasn’t asking her to convert BEFOREthe engagement or wedding.

He was asking her to attend RCIA training (education) before the engagement.

You can go through RCIA without actually converting. There is no obligation to her to be initiated into the Faith at Easter Vigil.

Actually I was asking him to examine his motivations and see if he WAS in fact kind of trying to “back door” get her to convert before the marriage

YinYangMom:

He’s about to ask her to enter into a Catholic marriage. Not a protestant version, a bonafide Catholic covenantal sacramental eternal committment.

They can have a perfectly valid “Catholic covenantal sacramental eternal committment” by getting a dispensation, having the ceremony in her church and having their marriage convalidated after her conversion.

YinYangMom:

How can she possibly say “Yes” to his proposal if she doesn’t know what that YES obliges of her?

Oh come on it’s not that complicated. The vows are pretty self-explanatory. Their Engaged Encounter/Pre-Cana should cover it pretty thoroughly.

YinYangMom:

She may go through RCIA and realize she can’t bring herself to practice NFP for the entire marriage, or raise the children to believe in Mary being the Queen of Heaven and Earth, or something else…when that happens it would give her good reason to pause and reflect about whether or not she can indeed convert after the wedding.

Sorry to say, this is a risk each and every one of us runs before or wedding and during every single day of our marriage.

IF he loved her he’d find a way.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

BillP:

Actually I was asking him to examine his motivations and see if he WAS in fact kind of trying to “back door” get her to convert before the marriage

Not at all. I have told her repeatedly her conversion was on God’s time, not mine. Although keep in mind, I told her the first time went out that I thought it was imperative for a couple to be united in their faith, that I marry a Catholic woman, and raise the children Catholic. I also sat her down AGAIN at the 3 month mark and asked her if she was still okay with becoming Catholic if we stayed together. She said verbatim “I wouldn’t be going to Mass with you if I wasn’t”.

Then, around 11 months she said “I don’t think it is unreasonable for a couple to be engaged prior to conversion.”

Then, at 12 months, she said “I really can’t see myself not getting married in my childhood church. I would still become Catholic once we were married.”

Yet, I have no reason to doubt her sincerity? I am not berating her, or anyone who has reservations, as these are major decisions, but what promises SHOULD I believe??

BillP:

They can have a perfectly valid “Catholic covenantal sacramental eternal committment” by getting a dispensation, having the ceremony in her church and having their marriage convalidated after her conversion.

Assuming she converted.

BillP:

Oh come on it’s not that complicated. The vows are pretty self-explanatory. Their Engaged Encounter/Pre-Cana should cover it pretty thoroughly.

Then why are there SO many problems in these marriages? And is it that the advice of almost every interfaith couple is “if I had it to do over again, I would not”, or something to that effect. I have never been married, ergo I am no authority on marriage, but it doesn’t sound quite as trivial as you make it here. But again, I am no expert, hence my seeking advice on here

BillP:

Sorry to say, this is a risk each and every one of us runs before or wedding and during every single day of our marriage.

And one that goes up exponentially in interfaith couples, I believe.

BillP:

IF he loved her he’d find a way.

And IF she loved me, wouldn’t she be willing to attend a class on a religion she professes to be willing to join one night a week? Why is it my love is always in question here? Is not she culpable as well when it comes to sacrifice? Keep in mind, she doesn’t attend the Lutheran Church. She was baptized, confirmed, and her family goes about 3 times a year. I am not going to downplay which sacrifice is greater, but I do the hard work when it comes to my faith. Adoration, confession, etc, so if there is moral high ground for such a sacrifice, I daresay I have it.

It doesn’t seem fair to give zero effort to something, then say “I don’t want to give that up!”, and expect someone else to do so…

I was willing to give up marrying a Catholic woman, give up being married in a Catholic Church with the Eucharist present, but I am not sacrificing enough? There is a fine line between sacrifice and caving in on what really matters, isn’t there?

Thanks for your thoughts by the way, I appreciate it.

 

[vluvski]

You did the right thing, IMO, Happy. Congratulations on standing up for the faith.
Peace be with you, this is a hard time!

 

[aterrell]

Happy Catholic–Just wanted to add my perspective. I am a convert from evangelicalism as of about a year and a half now. You said that your gf said she “loves the Catholic Church.” When I fell in love with the Church, there was nothing that could have kept me away. That you were having to try to convince her to go through RCIA… she was not that enamored with our Church.

God Bless You!!

 

[BillP]

“I don’t think it is unreasonable for a couple to be engaged prior to conversion.”

But you’re not engaged are you?

Yes I know that you’ve told her she doesn’t have to convert just because she’s in RCIA, but you don’t trust her to convert, why should she trust you not to pressure her into it before the wedding?

HappyCatholic01:

Yet, I have no reason to doubt her sincerity? I am not berating her, or anyone who has reservations, as these are major decisions, but what promises SHOULD I believe??

HappyCatholic01:

Assuming she converted.

Look if you don’t trust her you definitely can’t marry her. But is this really an issue of trust? Do you really feel like she won’t convert?

HappyCatholic01:

Then why are there SO many problems in these marriages? And is it that the advice of almost every interfaith couple is “if I had it to do over again, I would not”, or something to that effect. I have never been married, ergo I am no authority on marriage, but it doesn’t sound quite as trivial as you make it here. But again, I am no expert, hence my seeking advice on here

Well, I’m married and quite frankly it’s MUCH harder than I thought it would be. I think every couple, interfaith or not, has moments when they wonder if they made a mistake. When they wish they hadn’t gotten married. That being said, marriage is much better than I thought it would be, and I thought it was going to be pretty good! It’s more than worth every minute of the agita.

HappyCatholic01:

Why is it my love is always in question here? Is not she culpable as well when it comes to sacrifice? Keep in mind, she doesn’t attend the Lutheran Church. She was baptized, confirmed, and her family goes about 3 times a year. I am not going to downplay which sacrifice is greater, but I do the hard work when it comes to my faith. Adoration, confession, etc, so if there is moral high ground for such a sacrifice, I daresay I have it.

It doesn’t seem fair to give zero effort to something, then say “I don’t want to give that up!”, and expect someone else to do so…

You’re conflating having the wedding at her church with your giving up Catholicism. You both agree that once you’re married you’ll both be Catholic (the fact that you’re not sure you believe her is beside the point). No one has even suggested that you give up YOUR religion.

I believe that what she doesn’t want to give up is the wedding that she dreamed about since she was a little girl.

The fact is that she’s willing to give up her religion to be with you. That’s a pretty steep sacrifice (even if she’s not much of a practicer). Much more of a sacrifice that you giving up having your wedding ceremony at your Church.

Look at it this way, you make a sacrifice for ONE DAY, she makes a sacrifice that lasts the rest of her life.

HappyCatholic01:

I was willing to give up marrying a Catholic woman, give up being married in a Catholic Church with the Eucharist present, but I am not sacrificing enough? There is a fine line between sacrifice and caving in on what really matters, isn’t there?

You’re willing to do no such thing! You’ve made it very clear that you won’t marry her unless she converts. Do you not feel that a convert Catholic is a “real” Catholic?

You can have the Eucharist present during the Convalidation if you like.

So just to sum up. As I see it:

She’s willing to convert, you doubt her sincerity and feel that her attending RCIA now, before you’re formally engaged will serve as “proof” that she’s sincere. She refuses to attend RCIA before you’re engaged, and refuses to convert before you’re married because her conversion will prevent your wedding from taking place in her Childhood church?

Your posts sound like you love this woman and could spend the rest of your life with her if she converts. So, bascially you have to answer two questions:

Can I get married in her Church?

Can I trust her to convert?

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[vluvski]

BillP,
Welcome to the forums. Sorry to respond to your post on a rather sour note, and I hope I don’t scare you away.
Please read the entire thread. Happy has already stated that he simply wants this girl to attend RCIA with no commitment to convert, before they pursue the relationship.
He has also already explained that he and the girl are no longer speaking after he decided she was being unreasonable not to attend RCIA.
Further, I’d like to whole-heartedly disagree with your statement that she would be making a lifelong sacrifice. If she is converting for the right reasons, which Happy says she indicated, then she would gain everything by joining the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church and being able to receive the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[BillP]

vluvski,

Thank you for the welcome and for the concern. I’m fine, I’ve been lurking almost daily since Dec and am just now becoming comfortable enough to start contributing.

I have read the entire thread. I understand that all he’s asking for at this point is her attendance at RCIA. But as far as I can tell, the only purpose that would be served by her attending is to reassure him of her sincerity. And it seems to be a deal breaker for her. I was only trying to get him to reflect and decide if THIS is the thing he wants their relationship to fall apart over.

I further understand that they aren’t speaking right now. but I thought him saying “*I don’t think she and I will be speaking anymmore” *kind of left the door open.

If she is converting for the right reasons, which Happy says she indicated,

Isn’t this thread’s existence pretty conclusive evidence that she’s not converting for the “right” reason? I mean, you’re absolutely right, if she truly appreciated what the Church had to offer, she’d be there with bells on Sunday morning pounding on the doors of the church to be let in.

I guess I am a hopeless romantic and think ALL relationships should have happy endings. I’d much rather invest a cpouple of months in a relationship and risk hurt than find out years later that I could have had a wonderful life with THIS girl if I hadn’t been so insecure and obstinate.

Mind you I’m not saying that HappyC IS insecure and obstinate, I’m only suggesting that perhaps he should look into himself and consider that possibility. (as should we all, always)

Anyway I wish him every joy and happiness whether with this girl or whomever he winds up with.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

BillP:

But you’re not engaged are you?

Yes I know that you’ve told her she doesn’t have to convert just because she’s in RCIA, but you don’t trust her to convert, why should she trust you not to pressure her into it before the wedding?

Look if you don’t trust her you definitely can’t marry her. But is this really an issue of trust? Do you really feel like she won’t convert?

I don’t know. Her track record was “I’ll become Catholic prior to marriage”, then “I’ll become Catholic once we are engaged”, then “I want to marry in my home church, I’ll convert afterwards”. Doesn’t everyone who marries trust their spouse, and how many are disappointed in these situations? No we weren’t engaged, but had talked about marriage many times, and she had already said she wouldn’t convert until after marriage anyway. So why does engagement matter here anyway?

BillP:

You’re conflating having the wedding at her church with your giving up Catholicism. You both agree that once you’re married you’ll both be Catholic (the fact that you’re not sure you believe her is beside the point). No one has even suggested that you give up YOUR religion.

Why would she? She is in no position to demand that. She doesn’t attend services. That’s like me demanding my wife be razor thin when all I do each day is eat junk food. How is that fair?

And she has asserted many times that she wants a unified-faith family as well, and how important that is. It isn’t as though I am twisting her arm on that issue; she knows how key that is.

What would you do? I was up front with what I wanted, she agreed for the first year, and she has backtracked. Would you just abandon what you wanted? I don’t mind being married in her church if she wanted that. But I would be the one currently making sacrifices, and she is making promises, nothing more.

BillP:

I believe that what she doesn’t want to give up is the wedding that she dreamed about since she was a little girl.

The fact is that she’s willing to give up her religion to be with you. That’s a pretty steep sacrifice (even if she’s not much of a practicer). Much more of a sacrifice that you giving up having your wedding ceremony at your Church.

Look at it this way, you make a sacrifice for ONE DAY, she makes a sacrifice that lasts the rest of her life.

What sacrifice? I have a hard time thinking that someone who doesn’t attend a church or practice the religion (maybe twice a year?) is making a big sacrifice. If that is such a big sacrifice, then perhaps the person needs to take his or her own religion a bit more seriously?

And isn’t the husband supposed to be the spiritual leader of the family?

Does it make any sense really (even though I’d do it) to say "we will spend our life together as a Catholic family, but we’ll start it in the Lutheran Church? But again, I’d giver in on that, since I understand what that means to her.

I have relented on conversion before marriage. I have relented on marrying in the Catholic Church. All I wanted was for her to check out RCIA with me to learn about the faith she’d be marrying into. I know lots of people who have done that. Some of my friends’ spouses mandated that they (themselves) convert prior to marriage because they wanted that solidarity. I don’t see this as an unusual request.

BillP:

You’re willing to do no such thing! You’ve made it very clear that you won’t marry her unless she converts. Do you not feel that a convert Catholic is a “real” Catholic?

No I didn’t. I told her she would convert when God saw fit, and no sooner. That would probably be after marriage, I understood that, and told her, but that is on God’s time. Converts are some of the strongest Catholics I have met. But at the same time, I didn’t downplay the importance of a couple sharing their faith in marriage. Do you disagree?

There is more to this story, to follow next, ran out of room

 

[HappyCatholic01]

BillP:

She’s willing to convert, you doubt her sincerity and feel that her attending RCIA now, before you’re formally engaged will serve as “proof” that she’s sincere. She refuses to attend RCIA before you’re engaged, and refuses to convert before you’re married because her conversion will prevent your wedding from taking place in her Childhood church?

The question is, why would SHE throw away the relationship by not attending? Why is it so one-sided that I am throwing away the relationship?? Do you suppose anyone is asking her these questions over at lutheran.com?

I assume she thinks that about conversion before marriage and her not being able to marry in her church, though, I’d even marry her in her church if she was converting (silly though that would be). The Church is secondary to the life ahead (not to belittle the sacrament).

 

[vluvski]

BillP:

I guess I am a hopeless romantic and think ALL relationships should have happy endings.

Ever think that sometimes the happiest ending requires both parties ending up with someone else? I certainly know I’m better off having ended my previous relationship! Now instead of ‘making things work’ with a guy who paid lip service to converting, I am engaged to marry the man who I didn’t even dare dream existed. That is MY idea of a happy ending.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

One of the problems I have I have thus far failed to mention because I didn’t want to bad-mouth her on here out of respect, but it may be relevant.

The reason we broke up in April was because, in her words, she felt like she wasn’t a priority in my life, and that I wasn’t making her feel loved enough. Never mind the fact that I was bogged down with full time work and too masters classes in my electrical engineering program. She dumped me three weeks before my final and before I had a major paper due. It was an absolutely horrible time, major depression. Trying to write a 30 page paper on radar mechanics while crying over a girlfriend is something I wouldn’t wish on anyone.

Despite her feelings, I treated her like gold however. I flew us to New Orleans for Valentines Day, was constantly sending cards and roses and whatnot over the year and a half we dated. Even if I was overwhelmed with work/school during February and March, I thought I deserved better. We spent every weekend together (days, not nights), and did things during the week as our schedules allowed. She is a high school teacher, I am an engineer.

Now I found out that she started dating another guy a few weeks later after we broke up. She later assured me that she didn’t start dating him til after we broke up (which I know is true), but I felt like she probably knew him when we were together. It still seemed odd to me, to date so quickly after the love of your life falls apart.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

She within weeks realized she was in a rebound, and was just trying to replace what she had lost, and came back to me. We had it out over this guy, and eventually decided we would date again. I understood her feelings, but didn’t condone her actions. She told me she realized by losing me what she really wanted, and how much she loved me. (Just relaying her words mind you).

I thought for sure after all she had put me through, that she would at least attend RCIA, if for no other reason that a good faith gesture. But she was adamant; she wanted to do it when she was ready. She told me that she regretted breaking up with me, but perhaps if I had made her feel more loved something like that might not have happened.

So, we had recently been dating for a bit (2 months or so), and I decided I would leave her a nice note on her date book calendar on a particular day we had had fun together (did this all the time when were a couple). Well I did, but made the mistake of looking back during the time when she broke up with me (April). And apparently, according to her date book, she went out with the guy THE NEXT DAY. I also saw she went up to another state a few weeks later to meet his parents. Ugh. I always assumed they met and went out a few weeks after twe broke up.

So I decided I needed to address the RCIA issue, and probably the issue of her going out with this guy the very next day. I confronted her the same day I told her I didn’t want to continue heading down the path towards marriage if she wouldn’t at least attend RCIA with me. She was of the opinion that feeling as though RCIA is necessary before marriage is immature. She was angry and frustrated that I looked in her date book (and admittedly, I perhaps shouldn’t have, but when we were boyfriend/girlfriend, we did that sort of thing all time, leaving each other notes, cards, reading the date book, etc,…), and she said something to the effect of “well, you shouldn’t snoop if don’t want want to see anything.” She also tried to defend those dates, and said they were meetings with multiple people going out in groups. The bottom line is, you don’t write “7 PM, Scott, TGI Friday’s” if you are meeting a “group”. And most people told me that typically in these sort of situations, when someone starts dating another person soon after they break up, they have had their eye on them for awhile. But I said no way, I know her better.

I just feel like it was a case of I was busy and swamped (we still hung out twice a week mind you and talked daily), and she found something more fun or better because she didn’t feel loved. She quickly realized how follish that was, and I was willing to accept that move on when she realized she made a mistake breaking up with me, because I thought surely she’d relent on RCIA. But she is admittedly a very controlling, prideful girl, and didn’t relent.

Ironically, before we broke up, I wasn’t adament about RCIA. I had relented on marrying in the Catholic Church (any Catholic Church, not just “mine” as I keep hearing), and was willing to accept her vow that she’d become Catholic later. I guess her breakup with me gave me pause to think about things and I felt like I had done enough and given enough.

Hopefully, now you can see why I didn’t think my request was unfair, or maybe you still do! Either way, you have the whole picture.

I do love her, and have never been happier than when we were together (though that was more when she was onboard with joining the Church with me, admittedly), and feel like she knows she made a mistake, but given the circumstances, I didn’t feel as though she was in a position to demand much of anything.

She has always equated what she did to me with me making her feel “unloved” this spring, and I just don’t see them as the same thing.

 

[LSK]

HappyCatholic - your name says it all. I know this has been very tough on you. I don’t mean to sound all spooky and like I can read the future, but I firmly believe that any man or woman as dedicated and in love with the Faith and the Truth as you have become will be lead to the true love of their life by Christ and the Blessed Mother. It may not be in YOUR time, but it will be in the right time. TRUST TRUST TRUST and PRAY PRAY PRAY. You have learned some valuable lessons from this relationship, probably the most being that you are worth loving and that your Catholic Faith is important enough to put first. I think you have great things in store for you…and I mean it.

 

[aterrell]

TSK–I agree! Great post!

Happy Catholic… The ideal situation is always for a Catholic to marry another Catholic. Don’t settle. Look for someone whose faith matches your own.

 

[Orionthehunter]

aterrell:

TSK–I agree! Great post!

Happy Catholic… The ideal situation is always for a Catholic to marry another Catholic. Don’t settle. Look for someone whose faith matches your own.

Actually, the ideal situation is that you marry the one that God has made for you. It may be that He wants you to marry a person of another faith to be a witness.

I agree with LSK: Trust and Pray. Trust and Pray. Trust and Pray. Amen, Amen, Amen.

 

[BillP]

After reading your last couple of posts I realize that the pair of you are better off without each other.

Good luck and God Bless

 

[aterrell]

Orionthehunter:

Actually, the ideal situation is that you marry the one that God has made for you. It may be that He wants you to marry a person of another faith to be a witness. /QUOTE]

This is not what the Church teaches. Read the Catechism sections 1633-37. Here is a portion:

“The difficulties of mixed marriages must not be underestimated. They arise from the fact that the separation of Christians has not yet been overcome. The spouses risk experiencing the tragedy of Christian disunity even in the heart of their own home.”

I am in a mixed marriage, not because I disobeyed the Church’s teachings, but because I converted to Catholicism, and my husband has not (yet). I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone!! It is impossible to raise your children the way they should be raised with the differences that abound.

HappyCatholic had only a promise to convert. He was being a witness. He can do that without marrying her. And if she truly believed what our Church teaches, she wouldn’t want to wait to convert.

 

[Orionthehunter]

aterrell:

Orionthehunter:

Actually, the ideal situation is that you marry the one that God has made for you. It may be that He wants you to marry a person of another faith to be a witness. /QUOTE]

This is not what the Church teaches. Read the Catechism sections 1633-37. Here is a portion:

“The difficulties of mixed marriages must not be underestimated. They arise from the fact that the separation of Christians has not yet been overcome. The spouses risk experiencing the tragedy of Christian disunity even in the heart of their own home.”

I am in a mixed marriage, not because I disobeyed the Church’s teachings, but because I converted to Catholicism, and my husband has not (yet). I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone!! It is impossible to raise your children the way they should be raised with the differences that abound.

HappyCatholic had only a promise to convert. He was being a witness. He can do that without marrying her. And if she truly believed what our Church teaches, she wouldn’t want to wait to convert.

The Church teaches that the difficulties are not to be underestimated. Concurrent with this teaching, a person needs to be aware of the problems and be prepared to bear unique and inherent burdens as you yourself describe. However, to assert that the Church teaches that it is contrary to the Church to marry a non-Catholic is not true. If it were, they would never do it.

For the past 5-6 years I’ve been involved in my parish’s RCIA process. Probably 80% of the catechumens/candidates were led to the Church by their spouse. And in observing many of these converts, they are in the process of becoming better practicing Catholics than even their spouse. It is a blessing that some people acknowledge this particular ministry when they marry outside the CAtholic Faith and lead their spouse home to the Truth.

 

[aterrell]

I’m not saying it is against Church teachings to marry outside the faith. I’m saying it is not RECOMMENDED, and that the Church does not teach that Catholics should as a general rule go out and marry a non-Catholic for the purpose of converting them. At least I have never seen such an idea in any Church teachings–if you know of any, I would love to see them. Like I have said, I am a new Catholic!

Another thing to think about is the future children. It is one thing to be aware of the difficulties that may arise from such a marriage, but I think it shows a lack of foresight to not consider the children that such a couple may find themselves trying to raise.