Intersexed Catholic

[pathia]

rlg94086:

Having eternal life in Jesus is more than a consolation. No one is brushing Rachel into a dark corner.

God bless,

Robert

It’s an awful lonely place I’m pushed. The church has brushed me aside, the priests will always see me but they offer nothing new. I recieve bewildered looks from the other members at times.

I’m somewhat androgynous, I will look ‘wrong’ to someone no matter what gender I present as when I attend Mass. If I go as male, many look at me with disgust because they think I’m a lesbian then if they hear me speak they assume I am gay, but if I go as female things are okay, until they notice I’m over 6’ and then they assume I’m a transsexual.

They may not be intentionally push me away, but my life is very lonely, except for my boyfriend…who the church says I should dump and ‘just be friends’ with.

Rachel

 

[Cadence]

You and your boyfriend can be loving and affectionate with each other - just not in a sexually arousing way. A chaste friendship can provide much comfort and help you avoid the lonliness.
I should say though that you are not the only lonely one. There are many single Catholics who are not called to the priesthood, the religious life or marriage. They live thier lives as single people and enjoy chaste friendships.
You and your boyfriend can still love each other and be companions in this life without breaking any church laws.

Cadence

 

[rlg94086]

Rachel,

I know you don’t want to hear this, but this is a cross you will have to bear. My brother was born with a physical handicap and has been stared at and treated like a freak by some people his whole life. People don’t deal well with someone who is “different”, especially when viewed from a distance (i.e. they don’t know what you are dealing with or who you are). It will take a lot of prayer to overcome the inclination to hate the world for the way you are treated and/or God for the way you were born. Unfortunately there is little you can do to remedy this, except to open up to some, so they can help. And, pray…a lot.

Priests are still human beings with human weaknesses. 99% will want to help you, but that doesn’t mean they will do everything right or even be comfortable with your predicament. You will find some people who will be sympathetic and helpful. Thank God for those people.

As far as your boyfriend, your dilemma is the same as some one with homosexual desires, which is the reason Courage may be able to help. Have you called them yet?

God bless,

Robert

pathia:

It’s an awful lonely place I’m pushed. The church has brushed me aside, the priests will always see me but they offer nothing new. I recieve bewildered looks from the other members at times.

I’m somewhat androgynous, I will look ‘wrong’ to someone no matter what gender I present as when I attend Mass. If I go as male, many look at me with disgust because they think I’m a lesbian then if they hear me speak they assume I am gay, but if I go as female things are okay, until they notice I’m over 6’ and then they assume I’m a transsexual.

They may not be intentionally push me away, but my life is very lonely, except for my boyfriend…who the church says I should dump and ‘just be friends’ with.

Rachel

 

[pathia]

rlg94086:

Rachel,

As far as your boyfriend, your dilemma is the same as some one with homosexual desires, which is the reason Courage may be able to help. Have you called them yet?

Robert

I am not a homosexual. I see no reason why I can’t get married, this is crazy. If I were to not find out until after I was married I had these problems, would they tell me to get an anullment? I know intersexed people that are married by the Church that did not find out until after.

Under current church doctrine, if I had genital normilzation surgery as an infant, which the church advocates for the benefit of the child, I would be able to be married, but because I did not, I cannot be married and if I were to have surgery now, they consider it a transsexual surgery and I am harming God’s Temple.

The church is being unfair and hypocritical.

 

[rlg94086]

Have you received definitive ruling from the Church? If not, how do you know it’s being unfair? Did you check with the NCB Center (I provided a link earlier)? Have you checked with anyone at your diocese? The priest(s) you talked to said they weren’t wholly knowledgable, so why are you taking their word for it?

If you stopped at your local priest and then turned to this Forum then you’ve only started. This Forum is primarily lay Catholics who also haven’t encountered your particular issue. We are not the source of Church guidance. I assume because you are asking the questions, it’s because your conscience is leading you to do the “right thing” whatever that is.

I hope you find your way.

God bless,

Robert

pathia:

I am not a homosexual. I see no reason why I can’t get married, this is crazy. If I were to not find out until after I was married I had these problems, would they tell me to get an anullment? I know intersexed people that are married by the Church that did not find out until after.

Under current church doctrine, if I had genital normilzation surgery as an infant, which the church advocates for the benefit of the child, I would be able to be married, but because I did not, I cannot be married and if I were to have surgery now, they consider it a transsexual surgery and I am harming God’s Temple.

The church is being unfair and hypocritical.

 

[buffalo]

Gnosis:

My advice won’t go well over here,

But I say forget the Church, love your boyfriend and be happy. Don’t let these archaic, speculative, moral philosophies get in the way. What kind of options has the church left you? They’ve done nothing but brushed you into a dark corner where they hope no one will see you because you present a real problem…your very existence threatens gender roles…creates moral ambiguity. The Church says you can’t be a priest, you can’t get married, you can’t have children, a sexual drive or a life partner…wait no sorry, you can have “Jesus”, what a consolation!

If its a choice between misery and happiness, than thats no choice at all.

You are right, it won’t. She is asking for help.

Jesus never gives you a cross too big to bear.

Gnosis paints a very negative and immature view. Ignore it.

 

[ridesawhitehors]

Gnosis:

My advice won’t go well over here,

But I say forget the Church, love your boyfriend and be happy. Don’t let these archaic, speculative, moral philosophies get in the way. What kind of options has the church left you? They’ve done nothing but brushed you into a dark corner where they hope no one will see you because you present a real problem…your very existence threatens gender roles…creates moral ambiguity. The Church says you can’t be a priest, you can’t get married, you can’t have children, a sexual drive or a life partner…wait no sorry, you can have “Jesus”, what a consolation!

If its a choice between misery and happiness, than thats no choice at all.

Gnosis

HOW DARE YOU!
You should be accursed for this outrage! You don’t have a flyin’ rat pah-tooty’s right to speak this way about this subject to a person who is in a situation you don’t know a ____ thing about!!
HOW DARE YOU speak lies about what the Church and Our Lord believe about this child of God?
You are completely out of line!
HOW DARE YOU encourage someone to leave the Church? Your advice would send someone to Hell! Do you realize that?

Pathia ~ Please ignore this persons pile of garbage advice… Please check your private messages.

 

[I_A]

Jimmy Akin:

There are no authoritative statements from the Magisterium on the subject (to my knowledge), which means that the subject is in play for moral theologians to discuss. Eventually a consensus is likely to develop among moral theologians and, after that or in conjunction with that, a magisterial intervention may occur that creates an official position. Till then, we just have to do the best we can figuring these things out.

 

[Neithan]

Gnosis:

My advice won’t go well over here,

Correct!

Don’t let these archaic, speculative, moral philosophies get in the way.

Rachel, don’t let Gnosis’ trendy, speculative, immoral philosophies get in the way.

wait no sorry, you can have “Jesus”, what a consolation!

Please read the quote in my signature, and have some respect for what we Catholics believe the Gift of Jesus is. There is *no greater *consolation.

Rachel, you are a rarity! I agree with wjp984 that you should take your case to the highest authorities, even the pope. Write him a letter describing your predicament in detail, and note that you are genetically intersexed. You will get one of two answers: either a green light for sex-correction surgery, or a call to life-long celibacy. I will pray for you with the rest of us here, that you be given all necessary grace to carry this cross!
Matthew 19:

11 He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word, 8 but only those to whom that is granted. 12 Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage 9 for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”

Mark 12:

25 When they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but they are like the angels in heaven.

Intersexed people have the opportunity of not only imaging the angels in heaven through spiritual practice, but in their androgynous bodies can be a *physical sacramental *of the ‘angelic life,’ of celibacy. God works in mysterious ways!

 

[Mordocai]

This discussion puzzles me and raises a question or two.
1.) Since only a male can be priest (havening to do with since Christ was a male person, only another male person can offer the Mass) what does this mean for a transgendered person’s possible elevation to the priesthood?
2.) Is there a female soul and a male soul? I’ve always thought that the diff. genders represent 2 diff. kinds of souls (like the human body represents 2 diff. kinds, male and female [Male and Female He made them] I suppose I could check the catechism? But where would that be exactly (soul distinction, that is)

God Bless!
Mordocai

 

[Lynn-D]

Mordocai:

This discussion puzzles me and raises a question or two.
1.) …what does this mean for a transgendered person’s possible elevation to the priesthood?
2.) Is there a female soul and a male soul? I’ve always thought that the diff. genders represent
God Bless!
Mordocai

Although some of this topic has been covered before I had at first elected to ignore it as being repetitious.
That having been said I think point #1 needs to be clarified. The intersexed and the transsexual are not transgendered. :nope: Transgender is a social construct coined by a heterosexual male transvestite so that he and others could mask their fetishes and other sexual variances. Intersexed and, from studies done on the hypothalamus by the Dutch and gene studies recently done by the Swedes show that the transsexual should also be classified as intersexed seeing as the body and the brain are of two different sexes. Only one soul per person.
Furthermore, gender is of the brain and that is the form transgender takes and the proper application should be sex if talking about genitals, i.e., interSEXed and transSEXual. A transgender, (gender warper), might take on different aspects of behavior to mimic the opposite sex to satisfy a fetish or attract others of the same sex for homosexual acts. Most often though transgenders are heterosexual males and have no driving desire to change actual sex.
If we simply remember that gender is brain and sex is genitals maybe we might avoid some of the confusion that is so widespread within even the transgender community.
Neither IS or TS are driven to correct their bodies by a sexual need or orientation. Both are biological conditions and that is the aspect of their being that should be accepted without delving into whom or what they might be attracted to platonically or even sexually. I offer the following sites that might be found not only interesting but informative:
47xxy.org/PrintXXY.htm
isna.org/index.php****
Gene study
world-science.net/exclusives/050511_transfrm.htm****
Sex or gender
hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/intersex/sex_gender.html
BSTc Studies
[f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wJUpRKT3UFV8vJZ8iFKjEcd2XGbEhh__iwS1VN_S0YbR-BKJrea8zTsXQY-j7FJ4oGIOEwV-KtFju9yXDk9Vnw/TRANSSEXUAL%20BRAIN%20STUDIES/A%20difference%20in%20the%20brain%20Gooren.pdf](http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wJUpRK...TsXQY-j7FJ4oGIOEwV-KtFju9yXDk9Vnw/TRANSSEXUAL BRAIN STUDIES/A difference in the brain Gooren.pdf)

Lynn-D

 

[Gnosis]

I’m gonna stick by what I said, becasue it needs to be said. The Church is wrong on this issue, its blatantly obvious, it would rather push Rachel into misery to preserve its marganalizing positions than actually allow her happiness, and frankly, I’m disgusted. Somewhere in this rabid quest to be the world’s sole moral authority we have become willing to sacrifice people in the process. The Church denies her marriage, children, sexuality and even the preisthood, some of life’s greatest rites of passage and beautiful moments. All for what? God created her as intersexed, and now he will punish her with a lifetime of loneliness? Or what is instead labelled as “her cross to carry”. We corner her into this suffering, then tell her she’s noble for it. Does anyone see the immorality in that!

Loving her boyfriend, having children getting married, all this will do no harm to anyone, save some kind of abstract “spiritual harm” that will never be evident until the “afterlife”. Give me a break!

Rachel if you love the Church, then by all means, stay within it. But don’t let it rob you of your life. To love God you must also love yourself, and harming yourself in the name of an unclear righteousness is not a self-loving act.

I can’t believe some of the advice on this board, urging her to love her boyfriend but to extract the sexual element and destroy it, urging her to be alone because she “just might be a saint.” We use the language of compassion but fail to actually display it. When people who love God come to ask for advice, and we sway them in a direction that leads to misery, however holy a misery it might be, we bear a responsiblity in what their shattered lives have become. This is the true moral dilemna, not whether Rachel gets married or stays with her boyfriend or has children, but in our own actions and words, in how we respond to someone that society has rejected, in how we show them love and acceptance.

 

[I_A]

Gnosis,

Many of us are lonely.

Many are married, have a spouse and children, and are lonely.

Marriage is a calling. The priesthood is a callling. These are vocatoins, consecrating our lives to God in service of anohter. Nobody has a right to these, but God out of his love for us, calls every person to where He made them to be.

Are you calling all of us who have no one miserable?

The church has not told her she cannot have biological children. It is a fact of biology.

If you can’t believe that advice given to love, but “extract” the sexual nature out, what advice would you give two adulturers, or two men with same sex attraction? Love is always good therefore we should always love. Sexual union is made for a specific calling, therefore we should only exercise it in that calling.

Becasue some of us do not have sex, it doesn’t mean we can’t love others.

What it comes down to is Rachael needs to talk to someone who is both a moral theologan and an bioethicist. Most posters here (me included) do not have the knolwedge needed to deal with this. Most priests do not have the knowledge needed to deal with this.

 

[LumenGentium]

Hi Rachel

I would tend to agree with gnosis overall because honestly I don’t think the church can give you good answers on this. if anything, the church should be seeking to serve your needs rather than dictating to you how you should live your life…i say this because your situation is so uncommon, they don’t have any precedent for dealing with this.

you would be the precedent if you took this up with the tribunal.

I think that the times are in your favor though. so do not give up hope on the catholic church at the upper levels.

Also I wouldn’t waste my time with uneducated people…they can’t even handle human sexuality in an honorable sensitive way as it is. in this part you are not alone.

you said that you are sterile. does this mean that your body produces neither semen nor ovum?

 

[Pug]

Rachel,

I understand so little of your condition that I can’t help. You need more knowledgeable folks than me. However, I would like to express a few things. I can’t imagine thinking in my mind that I am one sex and being told I have to be another. What a burden to bear! I imagine I would just go on thinking I am what I think I am. I just can’t imagine! Being a particular sex is so ingrained.

I can share that before puberty I was every so often mistaken for the wrong sex and it was very confusing. Gender/sex is confusing, this I do know. Perhaps other kids have had this experience. It isn’t fun.

I think someone in your situation needs the best advice possible. I’d try to seek it out. Don’t settle for some local priest who probably has no experience with the issue. You deserve someone to talk to you who really knows what is what. And they should spend some real time with you on this issue.

Read. Pray. Seek out information. Be gentle with yourself. I wish you the very best.

 

[ridesawhitehors]

Gnosis:

I’m gonna stick by what I said, becasue it needs to be said. The Church is wrong on this issue, its blatantly obvious, it would rather push Rachel into misery to preserve its marganalizing positions than actually allow her happiness, and frankly, I’m disgusted.

No you aren’t. You are just an antagonist of the Church, with no understanding of what the Church really believes about this situation. The Church doesn’t ‘push people in to misery to preserve marginalizing positions’ . And the Church is the only place to find true identity. And Gnosis ~ You don’t find your identity in your gender or who you have sex with. Identity is fully grounded in Christ and his church through the sacraments. Not in the secular/worldly definitions you revere.

Somewhere in this rabid quest to be the world’s sole moral authority we have become willing to sacrifice people in the process. The Church denies her marriage, children, sexuality and even the preisthood, some of life’s greatest rites of passage and beautiful moments. All for what?

Is it really out of your reach to think that there is any higher calling for someones life outside of YOUR NARROWLY MARGINALIZED POSITIONS? We are given suffering for a reason, and we are created as we are for a purpose whether an individual fits in your mold or not.
You would give Rachel and others like her EVEN MORE SUFFERING by trying to convince her that the Church has an evil, unfair, and unjust life ahead of her, and tell her to look for help outside the Church. I’m going to tell you Gnosis ~~~ IT WON’T BE FOUND. The only answer for this condition is found in CHRIST, in the Sacraments, in a deep devote life, and in prayer and service and the love of other people who suffer.
And if you knew anything about what you were talking about you would know that the single life is a great calling. It is rare and holy.
When you say things about “the Church” … You better be careful… Because you are speaking against Christ. True, there is a human element to the Church… But if you ascribe evil to “the Church” you are ascribing evil to Jesus. There are foolish people who will give bad advice within the family of God. But you paint with a broad brush and insult the Lord with your slams on the Church.

God created her as intersexed, and now he will punish her with a lifetime of loneliness? Or what is instead labelled as “her cross to carry”. We corner her into this suffering, then tell her she’s noble for it. Does anyone see the immorality in that!

So, God is immoral? :nope:
Have you ever heard of redemptive suffering, Gnosis?
And what makes you think that lonliness is the sole possesion of the single? And why do you think a single person has to be lonely? Let me tell you, Rachel’s troubles go WAY BEYOND desire for companionship. She could get all that and the trouble will follow. She could gain holy orders or religious life…AND THE TROUBLE WOULD FOLLOW. YOU WOULD DENY HER THE CHURCH! and the healing of the sacraments!

I can’t believe some of the advice on this board, urging her to love her boyfriend but to extract the sexual element and destroy it, urging her to be alone because she “just might be a saint.” We use the language of compassion but fail to actually display it.

I will say it again, Gnosis. Your advice is obsene and worldly. You are obviously an antagonist. YOU would rob Rachel of her true happiness and identity and urge her to blend in with the rest of the filth of the world instead of rising to what God created her to be. You think that only by indulging in sexual behavior can one find true happiness. HA! HA! YOU would kill her soul for the sake of her sexuality.
You need to retreat. You have no idea what you are talking about on this subject. Either regarding the Church, or in Rachel’s condition. I do, I know exactly how this works. The world OUTSIDE of the Church HAS NO answers for Rachel. Not psychology, not peer groups, not family, not boy/girlfriends…NO ONE!
Only the Church, only Christ, only Mary. So there.

 

[Lynn-D]

I am sorry ‘rideawhitehorse’ but your advice to Rachel is somewhat shallow, almost cultish.
We, and I relate to Rachel, are scorned and cast out because of what we are and by whom in most cases are family. They being uninformed yet seemingly good Catholics use their faith to hide behind what they do not understand.
I was born Catholic, raised Catholic, attended Catholic schools and even went into Maryknoll Seminary for a very short stint. I was also in turmoil because after going to confession and admitting to my confessor that I had recurring dreams I thought might be sexually driven and perhaps sinful I was simply told to pray for forgiveness and guidance.
The next day was told by this same priest that I was not suitable for the religious life and should seek out psychiatric help if my dreams became obsessive. He did not understand why a supposedly handsome boy would think he should have been born a girl and dream as if a girl. I was confused because I was lost with nowhere to go for advice. What and who was I became the never ending question.
Later while attending U. of Maryland I sought out medical help at Johns Hopkins only to find that their programs were being phased out. I had by then accepted I was probably a transsexual. Later did find a doctor who took my under his wing and began treatment. Finally did what was inevitable and entered a New York Hospital for genital corrective surgery. I did not trans my gender, I already had a female brain and gender is brain. Already knew I was sterile but later found out I also had no prostate and only one testes was found. The other supposed testes was, the doctors thought, actually an ovary in my abdominal cavity and was removed when I was an infant. This all shocked me but it also was a relief to know that finally I was whole in mind and body. I did not grow from the girl I should have been but did become the woman I had to be. I have two friends who also went through what I did but each of them thought they too were transsexual only to find out, one before surgery and the other afterwards that they really were both Klinefelters. Will not explain except it is an intersexed condition. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter%27s_Syndrome
The Catholic Church at that time knew little of what and who I might be and when I requested my baptismal certificate be changed to reflect my female sex the priest, my aunt later laughed when telling the story, looked like he was in total shock. At first when I mentioned sex correction he thought I meant from female to male. I did look like a girl after all. My aunt chuckled. He passed onto the Bishop my request and a few months later I was issued a corrected baptismal certificate. I was told I could not take Holy Orders. Guess they still have not gotten past the confusion of those of us that God created different. (Continued)

 

[Lynn-D]

(Continued)
I am today a happy women who thirty four years ago went into the operating room hoping for the result to finally ease my pain. Today I love life and have been married to my husband for 22 yrs. We are now retired but maintain very close friendships with those who have come to know us simply as man and wife. Very few, and only those friends from the past who were there during the painful times, dicuss what I might have been once upon a time. It is really no ones business. I am still Catholic and will always be female no matter what state of confusion many in the Catholic hierarchy find themselves.
I say all this so that Rachel will know she is not alone. If Rachel is intersexed then she most likely will be sterile like me. She might be able to conceive but it is such a long shot. In any event God did not limit marriage to only those who might procreate. If that were the case then those I see in the church in their 50’s and 60’s getting married are wrong. NOT!
Those who think that simply praying are giving bad advice. God, for whatever reason, imposed on some of us a pain that we had to deal with the best we could. It is a mystery which someday we shall be given answers. Right now I think the church is going through what I lightly refer to as the Galileo syndrome. I will never condemn the church I love but I will hold some of its leaders responsible for adding pain because of the ignorant imposition of denial. There is much research showing proof that Intersexed and transsexuals are a result of a biological condition. Neither is a choice but a pain imposed at birth.
I don’t really know where I fit into God’s grand plan but I know He fully understands what I went through and my life as His Catholic daughter. Recently I had a heart operation and it felt so calming to hear the nuns, (Catholic Hospital), pray beside my bed asking God to heal his daughter. They saw in me what I knew. I feel that God smiled. I feel no sin and never should any of us who have overcome the defect imposed upon us.
Lynn-D

 

[rlg94086]

LumenGentium:

. if anything, the church should be seeking to serve your needs rather than dictating to you how you should live your life…i say this because your situation is so uncommon, they don’t have any precedent for dealing with this.

you would be the precedent if you took this up with the tribunal.

I think that the times are in your favor though. so do not give up hope on the catholic church at the upper levels.

Also I wouldn’t waste my time with uneducated people…they can’t even handle human sexuality in an honorable sensitive way as it is. in this part you are not alone.

you said that you are sterile. does this mean that your body produces neither semen nor ovum?

The Church doesn’t exist to “serve our needs”, it gives us the path to eternal life in Christ and it is not an easy path; however, the rest I agree with you. This Forum is not the place for answers, and her priest probably isn’t either, as he said he didn’t have a lot of knowledge about her situation (nor would I expect him to).

As I posted earlier, Rachel should contact the bioethicists in the Church and address the issue with her Bishop…even to Rome if necessary.

I hope she’s finds her answers, and I hope when she does she has an open heart and the courage to accept them.

God bless,

Robert

 

[LumenGentium]

rlg94086:

The Church doesn’t exist to “serve our needs”, it gives us the path to eternal life in Christ and it is not an easy path; however, the rest I agree with you. This Forum is not the place for answers, and her priest probably isn’t either, as he said he didn’t have a lot of knowledge about her situation (nor would I expect him to).

As I posted earlier, Rachel should contact the bioethicists in the Church and address the issue with her Bishop…even to Rome if necessary.

I hope she’s finds her answers, and I hope when she does she has an open heart and the courage to accept them.

God bless,

Robert

hi

i agree that contacting bioethicists is a smart move

i stand by my position that the church has a responsibility to serve its members. that is what ministry means… to serve…and that is what priests do…serve…not dictate. i stand by that.