Intersexed Catholic

[LumenGentium]

i think it is morally wrong for people to say this person or any person SHOULD SUFFER. that is an unholy thought. perhaps the person who believes in suffering should take on some physical penance and suffering for those less fortunate…rather than burdening others further. maybe the next time i am angry the Lord can provide me a whip to take out my aggression on them. since they love to suffer so much. I am sure most people watching would object. even non christians.

do you condone violence against women and children? it is morally wrong to do so. our church does not teach us to look away at the suffering of others.certain individuals are morbid in their desire to push suffering on others…it is unhealthy and immoral to tell someone to suffer at the hands of others. people who say that should be the first in line to volunteer for suffering and martyrdom (for those who do, there are some people being tortured in the middle east–please volunteer to trade places with them–its very unpleasant—no guarantees on eternal life) .

the path to eternal life is not suffering. it is receiving the sacraments often. jesus suffered so we wouldn’t have to. and he volunteered.

it is immoral to tell someone to suffer. jesus would not approve. and that is final.

 

[LumenGentium]

ridesawhitehors:

Gnosis:

No you aren’t. You are just an antagonist of the Church, with no understanding of what the Church really believes about this situation. The Church doesn’t ‘push people in to misery to preserve marginalizing positions’

. And the Church is the only place to find true identity. And Gnosis ~ You don’t find your identity in your gender or who you have sex with. Identity is fully grounded in Christ and his church through the sacraments. Not in the secular/worldly definitions you revere.

Is it really out of your reach to think that there is any higher calling for someones life outside of YOUR NARROWLY MARGINALIZED POSITIONS? We are given suffering for a reason, and we are created as we are for a purpose whether an individual fits in your mold or not.
You would give Rachel and others like her EVEN MORE SUFFERING by trying to convince her that the Church has an evil, unfair, and unjust life ahead of her, and tell her to look for help outside the Church. I’m going to tell you Gnosis ~~~ IT WON’T BE FOUND. The only answer for this condition is found in CHRIST, in the Sacraments, in a deep devote life, and in prayer and service and the love of other people who suffer.
And if you knew anything about what you were talking about you would know that the single life is a great calling. It is rare and holy.
When you say things about “the Church” … You better be careful… Because you are speaking against Christ. True, there is a human element to the Church… But if you ascribe evil to “the Church” you are ascribing evil to Jesus. There are foolish people who will give bad advice within the family of God. But you paint with a broad brush and insult the Lord with your slams on the Church.

So, God is immoral? :nope:
Have you ever heard of redemptive suffering, Gnosis?
And what makes you think that lonliness is the sole possesion of the single? And why do you think a single person has to be lonely? Let me tell you, Rachel’s troubles go WAY BEYOND desire for companionship. She could get all that and the trouble will follow. She could gain holy orders or religious life…AND THE TROUBLE WOULD FOLLOW. YOU WOULD DENY HER THE CHURCH! and the healing of the sacraments!

I will say it again, Gnosis. Your advice is obsene and worldly. You are obviously an antagonist. YOU would rob Rachel of her true happiness and identity and urge her to blend in with the rest of the filth of the world instead of rising to what God created her to be. You think that only by indulging in sexual behavior can one find true happiness. HA! HA! YOU would kill her soul for the sake of her sexuality.
You need to retreat. You have no idea what you are talking about on this subject. Either regarding the Church, or in Rachel’s condition. I do, I know exactly how this works. The world OUTSIDE of the Church HAS NO answers for Rachel. Not psychology, not peer groups, not family, not boy/girlfriends…NO ONE!
Only the Church, only Christ, only Mary. So there.

wow

ridesawhitehorse

you sure do misinterpret. don’t you?

time for you to be knocked off your high horse. eh?

sexuality is part of our identity. you can’t deny that. i suggest you study up on theology of the body…its all about sex and identity.

i will leave the pope and gnosis the glory of knocking you off your high horse

ciao

 

[rlg94086]

I think we agree…it depends on the usage of the word “serve”, and I just took your statement the wrong way. The Church should not bend to serve us (i.e. our whims), but She should serve us by providing us the help and guidance needed to be holy.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Rachel’s final answer from the Church is that she must remain celibate. It seems to me that this would be consistent with the other teachings on marriage and sexuality. How else could someone whose gender is not confirmable remain free from sexual sin? That said, it is not something for us to determine (either way) on this Forum.

As far as the suffering discussion, she may suffer. We all do. I pray that the Holy Spirit will help her persevere and lessen her suffering.

God bless,

Robert

LumenGentium:

hi

i agree that contacting bioethicists is a smart move

i stand by my position that the church has a responsibility to serve its members. that is what ministry means… to serve…and that is what priests do…serve…not dictate. i stand by that.

 

[Lynn-D]

rlg94086:

I wouldn’t be surprised if Rachel’s final answer from the Church is that she must remain celibate. It seems to me that this would be consistent with the other teachings on marriage and sexuality. How else could someone whose gender is not confirmable remain free from sexual sin? That said, it is not something for us to determine (either way) on this Forum.
God bless,
Robert

First of all Robert, Rachel’s gender as well as mine and Pathia’s is female and has been confirmed at least in my case in a County Medical Center Hospital, (a requirement of the state at that time), in order for my legal documentation to be corrected. Gender has been turned around by the social constructionists to mean sex but actually only pertains to ones brain sex and not physical sex which is genital. Read this link again please: hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/intersex/sex_gender.html
That has caused so much confusion because we often see ourselves forcibly included in the transgender list of variants, (i.e. GLBTTIQ…) and that is so very wrong. I am not a homosexual, crossdresser, fetishist, or a sexual opportunist hiding in fem garb. I am none of these things so why should I be labeled as a sub-set of that transvestic term, transgender.
Pathia is correct in that intersexed often have sex reassignment surgery, (srs), just as transsexuals. My surgery as an infant is questionable but later I had what is considered as srs. Many have had some limited surgery to remove an ovary perhaps and many others have had major reconstructive surgery to design a clear identity to one sex or the other. Some never needed to have anything removed but did need corrective surgery. And what difference when it was done?
There was a case where a Johns Hopkins doctor, Mooney, convinced the parents of a twin male who was mutilated during circumcision to have the child, who would never function as a male, be instead changed to female. Mooney insisted that Brian could be conditioned to be female and would adapt. Not so, one reflects their brain sex and that is exactly what Brian did and after so many years of rebellion he had srs and became a male again and then married a woman but that failed in time. Brian finally could no longer take the pain and committed suicide.
The fact is that one cannot be conditioned to be a female or male. It is not a choice. That is determined in the fetal stage of development even if the physical body might contradict. Transvestites/transgenders do gender warp but that is a psychological fetish and not a permanent sex identity. So, please understand that trans-gender simply means one who trans their brain gender to fit a mood or urge and not a permanent inborn identity although some morons insist upon hiding their sex behind the trans-gender term. Only sex can be changed to conform to brain, not the other way around.
I refuse to be celibate. I am a woman who will not accept condemnation for having sex with my husband. I am perfectly functional as a woman and will continue to identify as such no matter what the ignorant try to impose upon me. I go to church and pray for God’s love and receive communion as a woman. I will never accept that what and who I am is somehow sinful. Would you or anyone want me to live a half life? Never!
Lynn-D

 

[rlg94086]

Lynn-D,

I’m sorry, but the links you post are not agreed upon science; therefore, they are not the final word on the subject. As Rachel (the same person as pathia btw…at least that’s the way she signs.) has male genitalia and mixed genetic evidence, I don’t think scientifically you can determine (at least today) that she is indeed female or male. I agree that it is a tough burden to bear.

Being celibate is not living “half a life”, that is a rude way to describe priests, nuns and monks. Also, I don’t think I have condemned anyone in my posts. If the Church determines that you should live a celibate life, She also has not condemned you. She is trying to help you attain salvation.

There are a lot of things I would prefer to do, because of my sinful nature. The Church, the Body of Christ, tells me to do them separates me from God. Does this condemn me as a person? Of course not, it informs me and with prayer and the help of the Holy Spirit I learn self-control.

God bless,

Robert

Lynn-D:

First of all Robert, Rachel’s gender as well as mine and Pathia’s is female and has been confirmed at least in my case in a County Medical Center Hospital, (a requirement of the state at that time), in order for my legal documentation to be corrected. Gender has been turned around by the social constructionists to mean sex but actually only pertains to ones brain sex and not physical sex which is genital. Read this link again please: hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/intersex/sex_gender.html
That has caused so much confusion because we often see ourselves forcibly included in the transgender list of variants, (i.e. GLBTTIQ…) and that is so very wrong. I am not a homosexual, crossdresser, fetishist, or a sexual opportunist hiding in fem garb. I am none of these things so why should I be labeled as a sub-set of that transvestic term, transgender.
Pathia is correct in that intersexed often have sex reassignment surgery, (srs), just as transsexuals. My surgery as an infant is questionable but later I had what is considered as srs. Many have had some limited surgery to remove an ovary perhaps and many others have had major reconstructive surgery to design a clear identity to one sex or the other. Some never needed to have anything removed but did need corrective surgery. And what difference when it was done?
There was a case where a Johns Hopkins doctor, Mooney, convinced the parents of a twin male who was mutilated during circumcision to have the child, who would never function as a male, be instead changed to female. Mooney insisted that Brian could be conditioned to be female and would adapt. Not so, one reflects their brain sex and that is exactly what Brian did and after so many years of rebellion he had srs and became a male again and then married a woman but that failed in time. Brian finally could no longer take the pain and committed suicide.
The fact is that one cannot be conditioned to be a female or male. It is not a choice. That is determined in the fetal stage of development even if the physical body might contradict. Transvestites/transgenders do gender warp but that is a psychological fetish and not a permanent sex identity. So, please understand that trans-gender simply means one who trans their brain gender to fit a mood or urge and not a permanent inborn identity although some morons insist upon hiding their sex behind the trans-gender term. Only sex can be changed to conform to brain, not the other way around.
I refuse to be celibate. I am a woman who will not accept condemnation for having sex with my husband. I am perfectly functional as a woman and will continue to identify as such no matter what the ignorant try to impose upon me. I go to church and pray for God’s love and receive communion as a woman. I will never accept that what and who I am is somehow sinful. Would you or anyone want me to live a half life? Never!
Lynn-D

 

[pathia]

rlg94086:

Lynn-D,
There are a lot of things I would prefer to do, because of my sinful nature. The Church, the Body of Christ, tells me to do them separates me from God. Does this condemn me as a person? Of course not, it informs me and with prayer and the help of the Holy Spirit I learn self-control.

God bless,

Robert

When I pray I am reaffirmed that I am a woman. My answered prayers are apparently lies in the eyes of the church.

Rachel

 

[rlg94086]

Rachel,

I would never question what God is saying to you in answer to your prayers. However, some people mistake their personal desire or thoughts as answers from God. I only know we have to follow our conscience and that our conscience has to be properly formed in order to make proper judgments.

For example, the Church teaches (as did all Christian churches until 1930) that contaception is a sin, but there are many who say they have prayed about it and it’s okay with their conscience. Conveniently, God has “answered their prayers” contrary to what He teaches through the Church.

Btw, has the Church authoritatively told you that you are not a woman? I think, so far you’ve received a “not sure” but received instruction to remain celibate. Isn’t that correct? Does celibacy deny your sexual identity?

God bless,

Robert

pathia:

When I pray I am reaffirmed that I am a woman. My answered prayers are apparently lies in the eyes of the church.

Rachel

 

[pathia]

rlg94086:

Rachel,

I would never question what God is saying to you in answer to your prayers. However, some people mistake their personal desire or thoughts as answers from God. I only know we have to follow our conscience and that our conscience has to be properly formed in order to make proper judgments.

For example, the Church teaches (as did all Christian churches until 1930) that contaception is a sin, but there are many who say they have prayed about it and it’s okay with their conscience. Conveniently, God has “answered their prayers” contrary to what He teaches through the Church.

Btw, has the Church authoritatively told you that you are not a woman? I think, so far you’ve received a “not sure” but received instruction to remain celibate. Isn’t that correct? Does celibacy deny your sexual identity?

God bless,

Robert

The priests I have visited have said I am a man definitively because I have something that resembles a penis. They would support me marrying a woman, despite the fact we’d look like a lesbian couple.

Just to get something out of the way.
solfire.com/geekpics/conpics/fc06/DSC_1321.JPG

That’s me in the red shirt in the back left.

 

[rlg94086]

1. You are very beautiful. (Nothing against my lesbian cousin whom I love, but you certainly look more like a woman than she does . ) I don’t understand how anyone in your Church would think you were anything but a woman.
2. The priests also said they weren’t sure, right? I thought you mentioned that they admitted not having a lot of knowledge.

I think you should carry this much further before taking their opinions as the final word. However, you should stay celibate (obedient) until you get confirmation from further searching. Just my humble opinion…please take it in that spirit.

God bless,

Robert

pathia:

The priests I have visited have said I am a man definitively because I have something that resembles a penis. They would support me marrying a woman, despite the fact we’d look like a lesbian couple.

Just to get something out of the way.
solfire.com/geekpics/conpics/fc06/DSC_1321.JPG

That’s me in the red shirt in the back left.

 

[pathia]

1. You are very beautiful. (Nothing against my lesbian cousin whom I love, but you certainly look more like a woman than she does . ) I don’t understand how anyone in your Church would think you were anything but a woman.

1. The priests also said they weren’t sure, right? I thought you mentioned that they admitted not having a lot of knowledge.

I think you should carry this much further before taking their opinions as the final word. However, you should stay celibate (obedient) until you get confirmation from further searching. Just my humble opinion…please take it in that spirit.

God bless,

Robert

Oh, I am remaining celebate of course, since my boyfriend and I are only engaged, not married. I may question the church’s stance about my own situation, but not about premarital sex!

 

[the-3rd-parent]

What is your chromosome structure? XY? XXY? (yes there are people who are XXY.) It’s unlikely that you are XX, as the male structure would have never started to build itself without the existance of a Y chromosome. I have never heard of a single hermaphordite case where the individual involved was an XX. Then there’s the question as to whether you are a true or a false hermaphrodite. True Hermaphordites have issues with the primary sex organs. They may have one ovary and one testicle. They may have testicular tissue in their ovaries or visa versa and yet their exterior appearence appears rather normal. False Hermaphordites have only one set of primary sex organs which contradict the secondary set. For instance, they may have a semi formed penis and a semi formed vagina and have one ovary and no testicles, or one testicle and no ovaries.

These genital malformations can occur for a number of reasons and typically occur when an individual has a Y chromosome structure. It can deal with hormones the mother was exposed to during pregnancy but typically it is that the child’s body has difficulty producing enough of the male hormone. Thus we default to female and whatever male hormone there is starts at least trying to form into the genital structure we are supposed to have.

Actually, all of humanity begins rather unisex. The parts that would become the primary sex organs of a man (the testicular) simply go away later in development in the case of a healthy XX child.

To be honest, I think it is highly unlikely that you’re genetically a woman. Its also interesting that you say your doctor made you a man. Typically when such malformations take place, doctors tend to turn them into women simply because its easier to take something away than to add something.

As for marriage, I would say that marriage is very unlikely your calling. Courage is probably the best support group you can get since their overall goal is to help encourage each other to live a celebate and yet happy life. Granted, I did bring this issue up at a Courage talk that was presented at my University, and the speakers did feel that the issue I brought up was completely a different one.

It is probably unlikely you are called to the vocation of marriage. Please learn not to look at marriage as the ultimate solution to feelings of loneliness and what not. Marriage is a service to God. Too many of us nearly idolize the idea of a soulmate. Only God can truly make us happy. Look to serve Him to the best of your ability.

Be thankful that your genetic disease was in the sex chromosomes. Had the disease occured elsewhere in the chain of your DNA structure, it is likely that you would not have lived to birth and that if you had, you would have been unable to function, to live, that is, outside of the womb.

 

[pathia]

the-3rd-parent:

What is your chromosome structure? XY? XXY? (yes there are people who are XXY.) It’s unlikely that you are XX, as the male structure would have never started to build itself without the existance of a Y chromosome. I have never heard of a single hermaphordite case where the individual involved was an XX. Then there’s the question as to whether you are a true or a false hermaphrodite. True Hermaphordites have issues with the primary sex organs. They may have one ovary and one testicle. They may have testicular tissue in their ovaries or visa versa and yet their exterior appearence appears rather normal. False Hermaphordites have only one set of primary sex organs which contradict the secondary set. For instance, they may have a semi formed penis and a semi formed vagina and have one ovary and no testicles, or one testicle and no ovaries.

You start with an annoying statement. First of all, the term hermaphrodite is considered extremely offensive. Intersexed is the correct term. There are plenty of people with intersexed issues that are XX. Ccongenital adrenal hyperplasia causes elevated levels of testosterone in both XY and XX individuals. The case can be so strong that an XX individual can appear almost entirely male ‘downstairs’ and that’s just one disorder.

These genital malformations can occur for a number of reasons and typically occur when an individual has a Y chromosome structure. It can deal with hormones the mother was exposed to during pregnancy but typically it is that the child’s body has difficulty producing enough of the male hormone. Thus we default to female and whatever male hormone there is starts at least trying to form into the genital structure we are supposed to have.

Actually, all of humanity begins rather unisex. The parts that would become the primary sex organs of a man (the testicular) simply go away later in development in the case of a healthy XX child.

To be honest, I think it is highly unlikely that you’re genetically a woman. Its also interesting that you say your doctor made you a man. Typically when such malformations take place, doctors tend to turn them into women simply because its easier to take something away than to add something.

You didn’t bother to read my posts. My karyotype shows XX, XY and XXY chromosomes in my tissues. I was forcibly given testosterone ‘to make me a man’ in my puberty.

As for marriage, I would say that marriage is very unlikely your calling. Courage is probably the best support group you can get since their overall goal is to help encourage each other to live a celebate and yet happy life. Granted, I did bring this issue up at a Courage talk that was presented at my University, and the speakers did feel that the issue I brought up was completely a different one.

I am not homosexual.

It is probably unlikely you are called to the vocation of marriage. Please learn not to look at marriage as the ultimate solution to feelings of loneliness and what not. Marriage is a service to God. Too many of us nearly idolize the idea of a soulmate. Only God can truly make us happy. Look to serve Him to the best of your ability.

Be thankful that your genetic disease was in the sex chromosomes. Had the disease occured elsewhere in the chain of your DNA structure, it is likely that you would not have lived to birth and that if you had, you would have been unable to function, to live, that is, outside of the womb.

Oh, I know very well about that. I have a myriad of other issues that have come from my other sections. I suffer panic attacks so strongly that I have seizures and collapse to the floor with complete blackouts. They’re fairly certain it’s genetic because no amount of medication will make them stop completely. I also suffer from both migraine’s and cluster headaches, the latter can be WORSE than migraines, believe it or not. My back was deformed from birth and likely I’ll need steel rods jammed into it eventually, not to mention asthma.

My boyfriend is the only thing I have in the world right now. My church has abandoned me and I am not welcome there, no matter what sex I come as. It doesn’t matter what the ‘official’ stance is on my body in some ways. I am not welcome I don’t know how else I can explain this, but people at church are uncomfortable with my very presence at Mass. What else am I supposed to do then, if I am to live a celebate life and the church congregation itself thinks me odd and discriminates against me?

I have no one and it seems some try the best to make sure I can’t even have God.

I hope I don’t come across to strongly, most people are ignorant of the offensiveness of the term, but ‘hermaphrodite’ to me is on the same level as the ‘n word’ because it refers to and brings to mind something that almost NEVER happens. We are between, not both.

Rachel

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Pathia,

You are in my prayers.

 

[pathia]

Oh, just for informational purposes. Since this involves a fairly technical topic, wikipedia has a huge pile of information on it, mostly because people like me are sort of overrepresented on the internet.

All sorts of social problems go along with our issues, so we flee to it where people don’t judge us by our bodies. Hence why I’m here, instead of talking to my fellow parishioners and priests. I feel stigmatized.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

 

[Pug]

pathia:

I have no one and it seems some try the best to make sure I can’t even have God

Rachel,

I know, other people are foolish and make you uncomfortable. I probably would too, if I met you, just because I am foolish. You *can *have God in your life. God loves you! I probably sound simplistic here, and your situation is complicated.

Is there a different parish you can drive to so you can worship in peace, where no one knows your history, so you can just be invisible, like most parishioners can? I like being somewhat invisible. As an aside, that’s part of the problem with being an EM. You can’t just kneel in peace during communion. You have to be seen.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

LumenGentium:

…it is immoral to tell someone to suffer. jesus would not approve. and that is final.

I find it astonishing that you think you speak for what Jesus would or would not approve.

St. Paul taught that we are “fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.” (Rom 8:17). “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake” (Phil 1:29).

St. Peter also affirmed, “you may have to suffer various trials.” (1 Pet 1:6).

It is through suffering that we become blessed. “When you do right and suffer for it you take it patiently, you have God’s approval.” (1 Pet 2:20). “If you do suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed.” (1 Pet 3:14). “T***hose who suffer ***according to God’s will do right and entrust their souls to a faithful Creator .” (1 Pet 4:19) “**Do not fear what you are about to suffer… **Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.” (Rev 2:10)

We all have crosses to bear, and while there are undoubtedly tremendous sorrows which intersexed Catholics must endure, it is equally true that others have even greater sorrows to bear, although their cross may be a different one. Moreover, “If one member suffers, all suffer together.” (1 Cor 12:26).

 

[pathia]

Pug:

Rachel,

I know, other people are foolish and make you uncomfortable. I probably would too, if I met you, just because I am foolish. You *can *have God in your life. God loves you! I probably sound simplistic here, and your situation is complicated.

Is there a different parish you can drive to so you can worship in peace, where no one knows your history, so you can just be invisible, like most parishioners can? I like being somewhat invisible. As an aside, that’s part of the problem with being an EM. You can’t just kneel in peace during communion. You have to be seen.

I’ll go to another one eventually, yes, but I’m a graduate student. (IE: Poor and carless). It will be a few more years before I can afford one, one Master’s down, one to go and my PhD to go beyond that still, so I’ll be in school awhile yet
Rachel

 

[pathia]

itsjustdave1988:

We all have crosses to bear, and while there are undoubtedly tremendous sorrows which intersexed Catholics must endure, it is equally true that others have even greater sorrows to bear, although their cross may be a different one. Moreover, “If one member suffers, all suffer together.” (1 Cor 12:26).

I don’t mean to oversimplify things here by saying this, or to offend, but basically…

The only reason my body feels like a cross is because of the church. When I am outside of the church with my friends and at school I have total acceptance and understanding of my state of being.

Only in the church am I forced to feel different and to have a ‘cross’. I wouldn’t even KNOW this was a cross if not for the church telling me it was. My family is in agreement with what I am doing, they approve of my boyfriend and are frustrated with the church as well on the matter.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

pathia:

All sorts of social problems go along with our issues, so we flee to it where people don’t judge us by our bodies. Hence why I’m here, instead of talking to my fellow parishioners and priests. I feel stigmatized.

I can only imagine, but I’m wondering if those with leperasy had similar sorrows.

As for your cross, it seems clear that society and Churchmen have indeed placed this cross upon you, out of ignorance. Churchmen have often behaved badly, as St. Joan of Arc’s martyrdom proves. Yet the Church abandons no one, even if Churchmen do.

St. Joan of Arc, pray for us.

 

[pathia]

itsjustdave1988:

I can only imagine, but I’m wondering if those with leperasy had similar sorrows.

As for your cross, it seems clear that society and Churchmen have indeed placed this cross upon you, out of ignorance. Churchmen have often behaved badly, as St. Joan of Arc’s martyrdom proves. Yet the Church abandons no one, even if Churchmen do.

St. Joan of Arc, pray for us.

Leprosy I suppose would be an example, though a harsh one. I certainly would not claim to be that stigmatized. Even to this day it is still very ostracizing. It’s sad to think, but Jesus went to the lepers for a reason, to show a point and if he were to come back now there’s been little change in some things.

Rachel