'Invincible ignorance' inquires

[Bengoshi]

God did not make Mary humble. This is not a supernatural virtue that is imputed by grace - it is a proclivity that survives from our original wounded nature that extends from the natural universally given human facilities that is bound to the conscious habit through the workings of human freewill and personal election. Though it is also certain that in God’s Omniscience there were seen other reasons He “highly favored” Mary and filled her “full of grace” to perfect every aspect of her natural virtues and facilities to imbue her with the fullness of every supernatural virtue fitting to become “Mother of God”. But my own opinion here is that chifley it was Mary’s humility that was paramount and God foresaw it and elected to preserver her from original sin by pre-saving her in advance of Christ’s sufferage by the eternal and timeless merits of that passion (because surely “I AM” is in the “Eternal Now” and has dominion over all points in time.).

You are starting to reveal that you are probably subscribing to one of the variants of Calvinist theories . Without judgement I invite you to consider that you are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing - being ungodly in your world view. I believe that you may simply be injecting what is still a human view. You seem to embrace a reformed Calvinistic infralapsarianistic view of God and I suspect that you may be deluding yourself into believing this to be a “godly” perspective. What is your faith and how is your “godly view” any different than what you claim I am doing?

Are you not simply putting God onto “the reservation” of a human cranium to conform Him to your own theological framework of thinking? I dare say that we both are highly cognizant in our mutual belief that God is absolutely sovereign. But that does not mean that God is unable to form a partnership with us lowly humans and express His will through human estate. After-all, clearly God in His second Person as Jesus bent His knee for Love’s sake and for Mercy sake to be born of “The Woman” to become man. Now that is humility and demonstrates why humility is so valued by God since it is the very channel by which humanity is repatriated to God. Owing to the infinite degree of sovereignty and majesty of God - His “election” to become the Christ Child reveals a divine humility can ever be equaled by man - just accepted as Mary humbly accepted her role as trustee for nurturing and care of God in the flesh. God trusted His very earthly care and life to the humble handmaid of the Lord. Humility invites divine reciprocation - The Christ Child. Profound.

I do not believe that God made Mary humble. Mary choose the habit of humility to instill it as an electable virtue through her freewill. God calls us all to humility and God foresaw this woman Mary’s humility in eternity. While humility was certainly a critical virtue in God’s choosing her to be the human mother of His Son it was not the only thing - the capacity for elective love, chastity and purity of heart are all part of it too.

This all has less to do with formal theology than it does spiritual discernment through one of the deeper senses of scripture that St. Thomans Aguinas enumerates and describes in his [Summa Theologiae](http://www.newadvent.org/summa/Summa Theologiae) (1267-73). Old Testament topology (an insight into Divine Providence) clearly incites an expectation that “The Virgin” will have the attributes that are first sung in the Song of Hannah, from the Books of Samuel (1 Samuel 2:1-10). How profound that Mary would harmonize Hannah’s Song many centuries later:

God purposes that all be saved but will not force anyone to love Him nor to bend their will and force them to repent. God suffered Pharoah with 7 progressive severe inticements to repent before He hardened Pharoah’s heart - we always have choice but it gets progressively harder as we fall deeper into disobedience. God simply could have changed His will by Divine decree - but that’s not how He operates. God can not love or receive love from a mindless robot animated by irresistible grace. The consequence of Love is a respect for freewill and the loss of the obstinate and the proud. No one is created for damnation.

God calls all to Himself for whatever objective purpose God has. God created no one for destruction nor damnation. No one is predestined to hell. Those who are lost are irreplaceable and there is no other soul in all of creation that can do as well the thing that the lost souls were created to do. All of creation suffers for each soul lost - yet through some mystery those lost will not diminish God’s glory nor cause any loss of joy and happiness in heaven.

Hi James!

Please meditate on Romans 9 –

God’s Sovereign Choice
I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,"and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ "

Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”

It is just as Isaiah said previously:
“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”

Israel’s Unbelief
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.” As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Ephesians 1:4-10 –

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

The Bible is clear on the matter of election and reprobation in relation to God’s sovereignty don’t you think?

 

[Bengoshi]

A peculiar question. Are you looking for a magic formula that specifies the minimums necessary to gain you the same guarantee of salvation that the Reformers promised under their new theory of sola fide?

I think Jesus said it pretty clear:
Luke 10:27 And he [Jesus] answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with **all **your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Luke 12:48 From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

If I were to summarize I’d say “give it your all” and then some.

James

I see that we could be in a difficult spot if we believe this Catholic doctrine that you espouse. Didn’t Christ die so that we could be asssured of our place in God’s Kingdom? That if we confess with our mouth that “Jesus is Lord” and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved? (Rom. 10:9)

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hi James!

Please meditate on Romans 9 –

…

The Bible is clear on the matter of election and reprobation in relation to God’s sovereignty don’t you think?

So clear that some of the greatest minds in human history (St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine and Luis de Molina ) have all come to different conclusions on the matter.

This is in the realm of theology and is of limited utility to the average Christian. All that matters to most of us is that we trust that God is benevolent and wills that all men be saved and that we remain open to grace and seek to cooperate with it. If someone came to the apostles and asked them about these Protestant/Calvinist TULIP concepts they would probably say “we be simple fisher men mate - just follow us and do as we do and as we say since we emulate what Christ taught us and you will be fine.”

The doctrine/theory of unconditional election means God does not base his choice (election) of certain individuals on anything other than his own good will.[The Arminians however say that God bases it on his knowledge of what individuals will do in the future]. In other words - God chooses whomever he pleases and passes over the rest. The ones God chooses will desire to come to him, will accept his offer of salvation, and will do so precisely because he has chosen them. Of course all Protestants who subscribe to this theory all are 100% sure that God has predestined them to be one of the elect and that they can do no wrong since they are saved. It’s a very dangerous thinking and invites irresponsible behavior by divorcing free-will with a fatalistic thinking, produces self-righteousness; and even dispair when one finds themselves sinning just after their preacher told them they were saved (which in the theory means they ain’t one of the lucky “elect” or else sin is no longer sin and God wants you to have some fleshy fun still. ).

I tend toward Aquinas’s view:
The alternative to double-predestination is to say that while God predestines some people, he simply passes over the remainder. They will not come to God, but it is because of their inherent sin, not because God damns them. This is the doctrine of passive reprobation, which Aquinas taught.[ST I:23:3].

Catholics are free to believe in the concept of unconditional election as long as they don’t fall head-long into the ever-lurking Calvin heresy of double-predestiny - where God destines some to heaven and some to hell willy nillie.

Here are the Protestant errors that The Church has rejected and anathematized:
The Council of Trent stated,
*"If anyone says that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil, but that God produces the evil as well as the good works, not only by permission, but also properly and of himself, so that the betrayal of Judas is no less his own proper work than the vocation of Paul, let him be anathema. . . .

If anyone shall say that the grace of justification is attained by those only who are predestined unto life, but that all others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema."[Decree on Justification, canons 6 and 17. The same points were taught by the second Council of Orange (531), the Council of Quiersy (853), and the third Council of Valencia (855), although none of these were ecumenical councils].*

James

 

[Bengoshi]

This is in the realm of theology and is of limited utility to the average Christian. All that matters to most of us is that we trust that God is benevolent and wills that all men be saved and that we remain open to grace and seek to cooperate with it. If someone came to the apostles and asked them about these Protestant/Calvinist TULIP concepts they would probably say “we be simple fisher men mate - just follow us and do as we do and as we say since we emulate what Christ taught us and you will be fine.”

The doctrine/theory of unconditional election means God does not base his choice (election) of certain individuals on anything other than his own good will.[The Arminians however say that God bases it on his knowledge of what individuals will do in the future]. In other words - God chooses whomever he pleases and passes over the rest. The ones God chooses will desire to come to him, will accept his offer of salvation, and will do so precisely because he has chosen them. Of course all Protestants who subscribe to this theory all are 100% sure that God has predestined them to be one of the elect and that they can do no wrong since they are saved. It’s a very dangerous thinking and invites irresponsible behavior by divorcing free-will with a fatalistic thinking, produces self-righteousness; and even dispair when one finds themselves sinning just after their preacher told them they were saved (which in the theory means they ain’t one of the lucky “elect” or else sin is no longer sin and God wants you to have some fleshy fun still. ).

I tend toward Aquinas’s view:
The alternative to double-predestination is to say that while God predestines some people, he simply passes over the remainder. They will not come to God, but it is because of their inherent sin, not because God damns them. This is the doctrine of passive reprobation, which Aquinas taught.[ST I:23:3].

Catholics are free to believe in the concept of unconditional election as long as they don’t fall head-long into the ever-lurking Calvin heresy of double-predestiny - where God destines some to heaven and some to hell willy nillie.

Here are the Protestant errors that The Church has rejected and anathematized:
The Council of Trent stated,
*"If anyone says that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil, but that God produces the evil as well as the good works, not only by permission, but also properly and of himself, so that the betrayal of Judas is no less his own proper work than the vocation of Paul, let him be anathema. . . .

If anyone shall say that the grace of justification is attained by those only who are predestined unto life, but that all others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema."[Decree on Justification, canons 6 and 17. The same points were taught by the second Council of Orange (531), the Council of Quiersy (853), and the third Council of Valencia (855), although none of these were ecumenical councils].*

James

Hi James,

Thank you for your response. I also tend to agree with St. Thomas Aquinas’ view. Reprobation may or may not be active. That we really cannot be 100% sure for it is not fully revealed by Scripture. It is part of God’s secret will (Deut. 29:29).

In view of this, we might propose a Thomist version of TULIP as posited by James Akin:

T = total inability (to please God without special grace);
U = unconditional election;
L = limited intent (for the atonement’s efficacy);
I = intrinsically efficacious grace (for salvation);
P = perseverance of the elect (until the end of life).

I see this as almost quite similar to Calvin’s TULIP with minor variations. R.C. Sproul explains double predestination or reprobation as follows:

God’s decree of reprobation, given in light of the fall, is a decree to justice, not injustice. In this view the biblical a priori that God is neither the cause nor the author of sin is safeguarded. Turrettini says, “We have proved the object of predestination to be man considered as fallen, sin ought necessarily to be supposed as the condition in him who is reprobated, no less than him who is elected.” He writes elsewhere:
The negative act includes two, both preterition, by which in the election of some as well to glory as to grace, he neglected and slighted others, which is evident from the event of election, and negative desertion, by which he left them in the corrupt mass and in their misery; which, however, is as to be understood, 1. That they are not excepted from the laws of common providence, but remain subject to them, nor are immediately deprived of all God’s favor, but only of the saving and vivifying which is the fruit of election, 2. That preterition and desertion; not indeed from the nature of preterition and desertion itself, and the force of the denied grace itself, but from the nature of the corrupt free will, and the force of corruption in it; as he who does not cure the disease of a sick man, is not the cause per se of the disease, nor of the results flowing from it; so sins are the consequents, rather than the effects of reprobation, necessarily bringing about the fruition of the event, but yet not infusing nor producing the wickedness.

The Catholic view on reprobation is more correctly called preterition or passing over. God just chose not to give them the grace in order for them to turn to Christ. However, due to man’s total inability to choose Christ withou His grace, makes it in effect the same as reprobation as taught by Calvin. The effects are actually the same: God chose to pass over others, thereby condemning them to hell. The result is inescapable. We may call it by different terms and articulate it by different means, but the fact remains that those which God chose not to give His grace are doomed to hell.

Ben

 

[Mark01]

The Catholic view on reprobation is more correctly called preterition or passing over. God just chose not to give them the grace in order for them to turn to Christ. However, due to man’s total inability to choose Christ withou His grace, makes it in effect the same as reprobation as taught by Calvin. The effects are actually the same: God chose to pass over others, thereby condemning them to hell. The result is inescapable. We may call it by different terms and articulate it by different means, but the fact remains that those which God chose not to give His grace are doomed to hell.

Ben

How sad that God would “choose” to pass over anyone. God breathed life into man, made man in His image, infused in man His Spirit at the moment of creation. Did we lose all of that due to original sin and if so why did God become flesh as The Son so that all mankind would have the opportunity to be forgiven?

To be honest I have not fully studied what the Church’s teachings are on predestination. I do know that The Church teaches God is omniscient and being outside of time knows all immediately. God gave us free will and knows how we will use that will and knows how we will be eternally judged. But he did give us a choice, if that is “predestination” then this is what I believe The Church teaches. Let us not presume to know the mind of God for this puts us on dangerous ground, we must accept therefore that through Divine Revelation God has revealed all. I do not believe we understand all of His Revelation but we must be careful not to be led astray in trying to understand it.

From the Catechism of The Church

IV. The Divine Works and the Trinitarian Missions

257
"O blessed light, O Trinity and first Unity!"93 God is eternal blessedness, undying life, unfading light. God is love: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God freely wills to communicate the glory of his blessed life. Such is the “plan of his loving kindness,” conceived by the Father before the foundation of the world, in his beloved Son: “He destined us in love to be his sons” and “to be conformed to the image of his Son,” through "the spirit of sonship."94 This plan is a “grace [which] was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,” stemming immediately from Trinitarian love.95 It unfolds in the work of creation, the whole history of salvation after the fall, and the missions of the Son and the Spirit, which are continued in the mission of the Church.96

 

[CentralFLJames]

…
The Catholic view on reprobation is more correctly called preterition or passing over. God just chose not to give them the grace in order for them to turn to Christ. However, due to man’s total inability to choose Christ withou His grace, makes it in effect the same as reprobation as taught by Calvin. The effects are actually the same: God chose to pass over others, thereby condemning them to hell. The result is inescapable. We may call it by different terms and articulate it by different means, but the fact remains that those which God chose not to give His grace are doomed to hell.

Ben

No, this is not accurate. Catholics believe that God to be authentic in His call for all men to salvation does not deny grace sufficient for salvation to any soul. It is just that grace is contingent on man’s accepting it. Grace is never forced. It is a gift which requires the humility to accept it with the foreknowledge that we do not deserve it and we can never repay it - just show gratitude by not losing it and using it to honor and glorify God. Grace is resistible and grace can also be lost; on the latter there is no concept in Christianity of “once saved always saved” except by the completed divine act of sanctification in heaven contingent upon the Sovereign God’s judgement. If it were not so then we’d all be mindless robots and slaves to grace and heaven would be populated with robots with no individuality and no differentiation - and no authentic Love. But God is authentic and could not love any soul that was not able to also reject Him but elected to love God for His own sake of goodness - not for just His awesome power and majesty.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

We are getting off topic here on the topic of predestination. So I’ll make one more comment on it then just list the required Catholic de fide beliefs in this area.

This is a theological area that is mostly important only to academics. Except for a few key Catholic beliefs that have always been a part of our Sacred Tradition and are confirmed in Sacred Scripture, Christians do not need a holistic in depth teaching here to gain salvation. Knowledge of the inner workings of God are not necessary for salvation and in some ways I personally believe that it can be irreverent for humans to even try to comprehend God’s ways. After-all He has told us that His ways are not our ways and He is so high above us created beings that we can never fathom Him. Some that have tried to have gone insane…

An interesting factoid:
The Church did attempt in the 17th century to make a dogmatic proclamation about Predestination to give a complete teaching. But its clear that God was not ready to reveal this to the Church at that time. In the spring of 1605, Pope Clement VIII, after a careful study of the opposing positions on the question of grace and free will, was about to render an official decision approving the so-called “Thomist” position and condemning that of LuIs de Molina, S.J. But before Pope Clement VIII could promulgate the already drafted condemnation, he suddenly died! Coincidence? Many don’t think so. It may very well have been that God called Clement to himself to keep the Pope from ruling in favor of an erroneous doctrine to safeguard the Church and to maintain the assurances of papal infallability. Molina’s teaching, though, was not endorsed, so the question remains open to even this day. Catholics are at liberty to subscribe to any of the approved Catholic theological ideas as long as they also hold as true the key teachings below.

Renown Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott lists the following doctrines that relate to predestination as de fide (Latin for “of faith” and meaning the doctrines are absolutely certain and must be believed) or at least strongly implied in Church teaching.

1. 
   *]Men cannot perform any supernatural act without the help of actual grace.
   
   *]Despite their sins God truly and earnestly desires the salvation of all men. (It is formally defined that God desires the salvation at least of all the faithful. It is a certain conclusion from Scripture, Tradition, and Church teaching that God gives all innocent unbelievers sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation.)
   
   *]God, by his eternal resolve of will, has predestined certain men to eternal blessedness.
   
   *]God, by an eternal resolve of his will, has predestined certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection.
   
   *]The human will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible.
   
   James

 

[Masters_Servant]

Masters Servant we both agree there is no mention of invincible ignorance in the written Word. I also agree that all except those who are very young or have been blessed by God and remain as little children mentally as adults are capable of culpable ignorance and yes all and not some are going to be judged. The way is narrow and only a few, that my brother is why we should search out the truth. There is no excuse not to, but in the end there is only one truth not many. I think the Bible shows us that as long as we keep searching for that truth and we love our fellow man and God with all our heart, God will be merciful. God loves he does not hate. He makes no divisions as man does. I pray for unity that all may be saved. There is only one road not many, but I will not take away from God what is God’s. It is He who will judge and with my poor feeble mind I continue to search so that I may be blessed. I’ll end with a prayer.

Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead us all into heaven especially those most in need of Thy Mercy. Amen.

Mark,

I am a Christian; I am Christs, I am no longer my own, I am a new creation in Christ Jesus, the old man is dead, all my sins have been forgiven before I was born; they were ALL nailed to the cross about 2000 years ago and I am so thankful & undeserving and I praise God for that salvation; therefore there is no condemnation and I have escaped the wrath of God to come to all the ungodly. What have I done to merit that? nothing. Keep that? nothing.

Here is where I join you Mark; I pray that those who do not know the Lord; more importantly that the Lord does not know will have the veil of blindness removed so that the beauty of Christ will be reveled and see him as their Savior and will come to Him by faith. Likewise, for those who do not have access to Your word, never heard of Jesus; I pray that what you have reveled and written on their hearts will open their minds to your gift of salvation…amen.

 

[JVD]

Mark,

I am a Christian; I am Christs, I am no longer my own, I am a new creation in Christ Jesus, the old man is dead, all my sins have been forgiven before I was born; they were ALL nailed to the cross about 2000 years ago and I am so thankful & undeserving and I praise God for that salvation; therefore there is no condemnation and I have escaped the wrath of God to come to all the ungodly. What have I done to merit that? nothing. Keep that? nothing.

Here is where I join you Mark; I pray that those who do not know the Lord; more importantly that the Lord does not know will have the veil of blindness removed so that the beauty of Christ will be reveled and see him as their Savior and will come to Him by faith. Likewise, for those who do not have access to Your word, never heard of Jesus; I pray that what you have reveled and written on their hearts will open their minds to your gift of salvation…amen.

MS - do you believe in universal salvation? You think that you can sin no more once you believe?

James

 

[Masters_Servant]

Some Scripture Relevant to the points I’d like to make:

*Isaiah 55:9 As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

John 8:15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.

1 Peter 5:5 Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

Col 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.*

You are not God and I am not God. A godly view is a view to the kingdom and to the building up of the kingdom of God - an apostolic mission view. Enough said.

I have made no theological errors since I only promulgate infallable Catholic theology or else occasionally take liberty to offer personal insignts in areas where theology is not settled and then only where it is not contrary to dogma or scripture. I think you may have misunderstood me.

If you say so; I won’t argue more than on the topic, i should you the truth and you reject it…so we move onward.

My statement about Mary’s humility was not intended to be a holistic and complete expression on the matter but rather a recognition of one of the major factors that certainly had to be part of God’s consideration. It is highly consistent with the recurring scriptural theme of God elevating the lowly and humbling the proud. It follows that if Mary offered herself in humility as the “handmaid of the Lord” and is then elevated by God as “blessed among women” that this means God blessed her more than even pre-fall Eve as first woman. Ergo, Mary along with her other divinely valued attributes had to be the most humble woman in human history to become most blessed - the perfect new Eve who literally delivers the antidote to sin and pride - humility incarnate - Jesus.

Back peddling, semi-admission I was correct.

cut

God did not make Mary humble. This is not a supernatural virtue that is imputed by grace

You just killed your own position since God is the only supernatural deity and the only one with a capacity to impute anything onto man. it is a proclivity that survives from our original wounded nature that extends from the natural universally given human facilities that is bound to the conscious habit through the workings of human freewill and personal election. Though it is also certain that in God’s Omniscience there were seen other reasons He “highly favored” Mary and filled her “full of grace” to perfect every aspect of her natural virtues and facilities to imbue her with the fullness of every supernatural virtue fitting to become “Mother of God”. But my own opinion here is that chifley it was Mary’s humility that was paramount and God foresaw it and elected to preserver her from original sin by pre-saving her in advance of Christ’s sufferage by the eternal and timeless merits of that passion (because surely “I AM” is in the “Eternal Now” and has dominion over all points in time.). This is known as rambling on about the same point and further demonstrating that it is God’s designed purpose for Mary from start to finish.

 

[Masters_Servant]

CF James:

You are starting to reveal that you are probably subscribing to one of the variants of Calvinist theories . Without judgement I invite you to consider that you are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing - being ungodly in your world view. I believe that you may simply be injecting what is still a human view. You seem to embrace a reformed Calvinistic infralapsarianistic view of God and I suspect that you may be deluding yourself into believing this to be a “godly” perspective. What is your faith and how is your “godly view” any different than what you claim I am doing?

i clearly said i was not implying you were not a godly person, but your understanding of the Scripture is tainted by human understanding, we all have that issue it is just a matter to what extent. This is why the understanding of the Sovereignty of God in all things needs to be understood in detail to have a better understanding of the Scripture. We are all at different places i our walk; so take no offense and just continue to grow - that’s all. How do you grow; through His word.

Are you not simply putting God onto “the reservation” of a human cranium to conform Him to your own theological framework of thinking? I dare say that we both are highly cognizant in our mutual belief that God is absolutely sovereign. But that does not mean that God is unable to form a partnership with us lowly humans and express His will through human estate. After-all, clearly God in His second Person as Jesus bent His knee for Love’s sake and for Mercy sake to be born of “The Woman” to become man. Now that is humility and demonstrates why humility is so valued by God since it is the very channel by which humanity is repatriated to God. Owing to the infinite degree of sovereignty and majesty of God - His “election” to become the Christ Child reveals a divine humility can ever be equaled by man - just accepted as Mary humbly accepted her role as trustee for nurturing and care of God in the flesh. God trusted His very earthly care and life to the humble handmaid of the Lord. Humility invites divine reciprocation - The Christ Child. Profound.

The more you speak on humility; the more the human perspective is showing. Mary was humble before God because God first revealed Himself to her, which she gladly denied herself in favor of God and His purpose, but it is God that purposed it in the first place. Humility is so valued by God because it is the path to God; the proud will never see heaven. Christ is our example of the purest form of humility; He gave himself completely in obedience to the Father; true Christians have reached the point of denying self in favor of Christ and accepting the gift of salvation; exactly what Mary had done prior to any notion she would be the Christ bearer.

I do not believe that God made Mary humble.

Here we agree that you do not believe God made her humble, but He did. cut No one ever choose God unless He first choose them. Likewise, you could not love god unless He first set His love on you. He is sovereign in ALL things.
cut

God purposes that all be saved but will not force anyone to love Him nor to bend their will and force them to repent.

Thi sis an error in theology; god desires all would be saved, but what He purposes always comes to pass. If He purposed all to be saved, then all would be saved - He is sovereign in ALL things.

God suffered Pharaoh with 7 progressive severe enticements to repent before He hardened Pharaoh’s heart - we always have choice but it gets progressively harder as we fall deeper into disobedience.

Again another misunderstanding of the nature of God; He does not harden the heart in the human thinking of the term hardened; we all have hardened hearts, which is why when one is received by God He gives them a heart of flesh. Pharaoh was hardened in the sense that He, God, did not reveal Himself to Pharoah and unless He reveals Himself, then no one would seek after God according to the Word of God.

The consequence of Love is a respect for freewill and the loss of the obstinate and the proud. No one is created for damnation.

Free will is a topic that needs great depth in understanding of Gods nature, attributes, purpose of creation and relationship to humans coupled with a in-depth understanding on the nature of sin. It is not a topic we are ready to plunge into. I will say this much; in the sovereignty and purpose of His creation there are severe limits that humans have on free will because of man’s sin nature.

God calls all to Himself for whatever objective purpose God has. God created no one for destruction nor damnation. No one is predestined to hell.

Permission to erase this from Scripture? “What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

God speaks for Himself on that topic.

There has been not one single alteration of Catholic belief from the first century to current times. Not one. What there has been is an expansion on theological insight and depth of teaching. But this is no different that Paul coming after the resurrection to add significant insights into Christianity that the original apostles did not record. The Church never adds to the deposit of faith - it only gives expositions on it.

No comment.

 

[Masters_Servant]

It is only your opinion that the Apostles would not recognize the Catholic Church. But I differ with you since the apostles would certainly all recognize the breaking of bread and the mass on the Lord’s Day since we do substantially the same things they all did in the first century.

If you think so; I can’t give my view without causing strife; so i won’t.

There is some risk of disturbing one’s peace in these kinds of discussions but that is better than missing the truth and not attaining to the fullness of the faith and “being all that we are called to be”.

James

 

[Masters_Servant]

I think this is the first time I have found myself advocating for the doctrine of invincible ignorance since I think don’t believe that this principal comes into play very often at all in the west. There is too much awareness of Christian doctrines and too much readily available information. Once a person is exposed to the truth he has a compelling moral obligation to go seek it out objectively and consider it more fully. There is no relief from the moral obligation and natural desire to know the truth. An outright “knee jerk” rejection of Catholicism is culpable since it relates to spiritual sloth - a capital sin.

And I said before there is substantial scriptural evidence of the doctrine of invincible ignorance.
*
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.*

Would you challenge Christ’s very own words that “they know not what they do” and claim that these are not in a state of invincible ignorance at the time they crucified Christ? Remember, the Romans revered Caesar as a god and it would been culturally nearly impossible for them to accept Jesus as God based only one hearsay information that some of the soldiers may have heard from the crowds. It is also doubtful any Christians were in the crowd proselytizing as their master was being crucified.

James

Would you pull a single passage of Scripture out of its context and use it for a theology that does not exist and contradicts the discussion on the subject in great detail in Romans 1 & 2?

 

[Bengoshi]

A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP
By JAMES AKIN (Catholic)

"PREDESTINATION means many things to many people. All Christian churches believe in some form of predestination, because the Bible uses the term, [See Rom. 8:29-30, Eph. 1:5, 11. For the Catholic Church’s teaching on predestination see Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 242-244, and William G. Most, Catholic Apologetics Today, 114-122], but what predestination is and how it works are in dispute.

In Protestant circles there are two major camps when it comes to predestination: Calvinism and Arminianism. [Calvinists are followers of John Calvin (1509-1564). Arminians are followers of Jacob Arminius (1560-1609), not people from the Republic of Armenia]. Calvinism is common in Presbyterian, Reformed, and a few Baptist churches. Arminianism is common in Methodist, Pentecostal, and most Baptist churches. In Catholic circles, the two major groups discussing predestination are the Thomists and the Molinists, the followers of Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) and Luis de Molina (1536-1600). Thomists emphasize the role of grace, while Molinists emphasize free will. Neither school ignores grace or free will].

Even though Calvinists are a minority among Protestants today, their view has had enormous influence, especially in this country. This is partly because the Puritans and the Baptists who helped found America were Calvinists, but it is also because Calvinism traditionally has been found among the more intellectual Protestants, giving it a special influence.

Calvinists claim God predestines people by choosing which individuals will accept his offer of salvation. These people are known as “the elect.”[From the Greek word eklektos, which means “chosen.”]. They are not saved against their will. It is because God has chosen them that they will desire to come to him in the first place. Those who are not among the elect, “the reprobate,” will not desire to come to God, will not do so, and thus will not be saved.[Calvinists are sometimes wrongly criticized as teaching that a person can be unconcerned about his salvation since he is already either among the elect or the reprobate. According to a Calvinist it would be a mistake for a person to say, “Well, if God chooses me, I’ll be saved, and if he doesn’t, I won’t, so I can sit back and do nothing.” A person who said this until his death would show he was not one of the elect because he never did the things, such as repenting and trusting God, which are necessary for salvation].

Arminians claim God predestines people by pronouncing (but not deciding) who will accept salvation. He makes this pro nouncement using his foreknowledge, which enables him to see what people will do in the future. He sees who will choose to accept his offer of salvation. The people who God knows will repent are those he regards as his “elect” or “chosen” people.

The debate between Calvinists and Arminians is often fierce. These groups frequently accuse each other of teaching a false gospel, at least on a theoretical level, although on a practical level there is little difference between the two since both groups command people to have “faith alone” in order to be saved. [Among Catholics the discussion has been much more peaceful. Since the controversy over grace in the late 1500s and early 1600s, Thomists and Molinists have been forbidden to accuse each other of heresy. In 1748 the Church declared Thomism, Molinism, and a third view known as Augustinianism to be acceptable Catholic teachings].

The debate is centered on the well-known formula TULIP. Each letter of this acronym stands for a different doctrine held by classical Calvinists [There are some Calvinists, known as Amyraldians or “four-point Calvinists,” who hold all of TULIP except for " L "] but rejected by Arminians. The doctrines are:

Total depravity,
Unconditional election,
Limited atonement,
Irresistible grace, and
Perseverance of the saints.

It is important for Catholics to know about these subjects: First, Catholics are often attacked by Calvinists who misunderstand the Catholic position on these issues. Second, Catholics often misunderstand the teaching of their own Church on predestination. Third, in recent years there has been a large number of Calvinists who have become Catholics [Including Scott Hahn, Gerry Matatics, Steve Wood, myself, and numerous others]. By understanding Calvinism better, Catholics can help more Calvinists make the jump."

This is just an excerpt from the article. It presents the Thomist view of predestination. I suggest that the entire article be read. It’s just 6 pages short. It can be searched on Google.

 

[Masters_Servant]

CentralFLJames:

Are we beginning to commend ourselves again (2 Cor 3:1)?
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

2 Cor 3:3 You yourselves are our letter*, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

My friend, you yourself are thinking like a human - strange that we are human huh?
God could just as easily have “written His laws on our hearts” and not let people think that a book can save them. Funny that is exactly what He did no?

The idea that the bible saves or is even necessary for our salvation is a Protestant fabrication. God saves and He normally does it through the instrumentality of other Christians who are able to convert by example. The faith principally comes as a gift from God through other members of His Church. Few come into the faith by blindly picking up a bible out of the library or bookstore and reading it without first being attracted to Christianity in some way - again usually through observing or interacting with a Christian (either through admiration or by conflicted tension and admiring how they stand up to adversity).

You are only beginning to demonstrate your feeling about the Word. You are beginning to scare me.

We don’t need to go to scripture to get a definition of God’s Church. It is the same Church that has always existed for 2,000 years. It’s the Catholic Church which has both formal members as well as informal members who are not really aware that the are part of us. There is no concept of an ‘invisible church’ that many Protestants will claim is the case. The Church is a physical place that one can go to and receive instruction and petition help since it is “the pillar and foundation of truth”. These are concrete terms with the durability of a physical place with order and structure and continuity of members from age to age (so that a perfect offering can be made east to west). When Paul said “take up matters to the Church” he did not mean to use private discernment to rationalize doing any subjective thing one wants to do or believe. There is only one truth - not a legion of truths and personal opinions.

Even more scared; and some hostility is beginning to seep through as well, which is what I was afraid would happen and was hoping would not happen. Let’s not get too personal here we don’t know each other that well.

Nonetheless, if one wants to go to scripture and the early church fathers to get insights into what is the biblical church s then it can be read about here:
scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html

I had to edit because i did not initially look at the link, but after viewing it is referring to Scriptural links, but the impression from the paragraph above did not seem to go in that direction. But way too many to view in a single sitting and there are a few glaring errors of context, but way too much there for a single post or two; that would be an entire thread. Wish I could comment further except to say that God clearly defines what His church is, who makes up that church and Who the foundation of that church is.

Master Servant - I think you are here because God has purposed you to have the fullness of the faith. You have a great and positive Christian attitude and are clearly in love with God and His precepts. It would be very good for you to stick around and learn some things about the Catholic Faith since we all firmly believe that it is the One True Faith and the single Church establised by Christ on earth. Our members are never impeccable nor perfect in any way but The Church itself is alive with God’s spirit and His care and protections and grace. To the soul disposed to grace there is enormous grace available in the sacraments.

James

Well thank you James; those are very gracious words & I hope to be around unless I am no longer welcomed, which I think I would know if that happens and will just walk away and move on with my life. Lord knows if you want to know more about the Catholic faith there is plenty of material on the internet, which is good and accurate may be an exercise in discernment, but CAF can give one an idea of what the most devout thinking on Catholicism is for sure. Again, thanks for the gracious words,

 

[Bengoshi]

MS - do you believe in universal salvation? You think that you can sin no more once you believe?

James

Are you the same James as CentralFLJames? How did you change your name?

If I may answer your question to MS, on my part, I do not believe in universla salvation. Only thos who have faith (pistis) in Christ will be saved. As Christians in a fallen world where temptation still exists, we can still definitely sin. The doctrine of “perseverance of the saints” assures us that those who have genuine faith in Christ shall persevere in their faith until the day of their death. Those who fall away (as in abandon Christ and His teachings altogether) and die without repenting never did have genuine faith (trust) in Christ and have never truly accepted Him as Lord and Savior. I do not subscribe to the Baptist view of “eternal security”. Thy teach that no matter what we do, if we have faith in Christ, we will be saved. This is a different teaching. Genuiine faith is eveidenced by good works and obedience to God’s commands. What if a truly saved person suddenly dies after committing a sin that he did not have the opportunity to confess and repent of that particular sin? Is he still saved? The answer is yes! If he was indeed a true disciple of Christ, then he is still saved. As to the genuineness of his faith, it is only between that person and God. We have no way of being certain.

 

[Masters_Servant]

A peculiar question. Are you looking for a magic formula that specifies the minimums necessary to gain you the same guarantee of salvation that the Reformers promised under their new theory of sola fide?

I think Jesus said it pretty clear:
Luke 10:27 And he [Jesus] answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with **all **your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Luke 12:48 From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

If I were to summarize I’d say “give it your all” and then some.

James

James he is making the point that “no amount” of works could merit anything before God in regards to being saved; clearly taught in the Bible. Works are the “fruit of righteousness”, not the means of righteousness.

 

[Masters_Servant]

How sad that God would “choose” to pass over anyone. God breathed life into man, made man in His image, infused in man His Spirit at the moment of creation. Did we lose all of that due to original sin and if so why did God become flesh as The Son so that all mankind would have the opportunity to be forgiven?

To be honest I have not fully studied what the Church’s teachings are on predestination. I do know that The Church teaches God is omniscient and being outside of time knows all immediately. God gave us free will and knows how we will use that will and knows how we will be eternally judged. But he did give us a choice, if that is “predestination” then this is what I believe The Church teaches. Let us not presume to know the mind of God for this puts us on dangerous ground, we must accept therefore that through Divine Revelation God has revealed all. I do not believe we understand all of His Revelation but we must be careful not to be led astray in trying to understand it.

From the Catechism of The Church

IV. The Divine Works and the Trinitarian Missions

257
"O blessed light, O Trinity and first Unity!"93 God is eternal blessedness, undying life, unfading light. God is love: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God freely wills to communicate the glory of his blessed life. Such is the “plan of his loving kindness,” conceived by the Father before the foundation of the world, in his beloved Son: “He destined us in love to be his sons” and “to be conformed to the image of his Son,” through "the spirit of sonship."94 This plan is a “grace [which] was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,” stemming immediately from Trinitarian love.95 It unfolds in the work of creation, the whole history of salvation after the fall, and the missions of the Son and the Spirit, which are continued in the mission of the Church.96

Mark, I do not know if this helps or adds confusion, but I think of it in this manner. All mankind is on the south rim of the Grand Canyon and God is on the North rim of the grand Canyon. Only the ones without sin can come over to God because they were able to meet His standard for entrance or crossing if you will. So how many men will cross over to God, none. Why? because no one can meet His standard; therefore He is just in leaving all of them behind. But in His mercy and His kindness He provided a bridge or a way over to His side in the name of Christ. To some He chose to reveal Christ and to others He did not. Is He still just? Yes. Why? Because from the start no one was able to meet the standard and all were deserving of separation from God, which is hell.

It would be the same as asking was God justified in destroying all of the world except for 8 people? Yes. Why? The same reason all fell short, but in His Mercy He brought 8 through the waters of His judgment through the safety of His protection, which was the Ark.

In God’s own word; thi sis how He puts it through the Apostles Paul in the letter to the Romans

“What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

You see salvation of men is not about man, but about God displaying His glory to his creation, which is done by showing His righteous judgment or by His saving grace. He is glorified in either case, which is the reason for the creation, to put that glory on display.

 

[Masters_Servant]

MS - do you believe in universal salvation? You think that you can sin no more once you believe?

James

I sin everyday and battle that sin everyday and will continue to battle that sin because of the flesh, but my heart is with the Lord and the direction of my life is to walk that narrow path and to sin less and less, never reaching that perfection until He brings me home.

When were the sins of the world paid for? At the cross. Was I alive at that time? No. So my sins were paid at the cross of Calvary. As a child has reverence to his dad; I, as a child of God, have reverence for my Father and therefore when I do sin; I come to Him and ask for forgiveness.

Universal salvation is foreign to Scripture.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Are you the same James as CentralFLJames? How did you change your name?

If I may answer your question to MS, on my part, I do not believe in universla salvation. Only thos who have faith (pistis) in Christ will be saved. As Christians in a fallen world where temptation still exists, we can still definitely sin. The doctrine of “perseverance of the saints” assures us that those who have genuine faith in Christ shall persevere in their faith until the day of their death. Those who fall away (as in abandon Christ and His teachings altogether) and die without repenting never did have genuine faith (trust) in Christ and have never truly accepted Him as Lord and Savior. I do not subscribe to the Baptist view of “eternal security”. Thy teach that no matter what we do, if we have faith in Christ, we will be saved. This is a different teaching. Genuiine faith is eveidenced by good works and obedience to God’s commands. What if a truly saved person suddenly dies after committing a sin that he did not have the opportunity to confess and repent of that particular sin? Is he still saved? The answer is yes! If he was indeed a true disciple of Christ, then he is still saved. As to the genuineness of his faith, it is only between that person and God. We have no way of being certain.

I have no idea where you put that blanket out on Baptists; but I do not know any Christian that believes that you can just accept Christ and go on sinning willfully and continually, regardless of the denomination and I have never seen that taught in any Baptist church I have gone to. What you described is called “easy believism” and is not a Baptist concept that i have ever seen taught.