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RCCDefender
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Yeah, but that’s the thing. The Bible doesn’t sat to use the Bible as the plum line. It say the church has the final say.
Jesus prayed that the people of His church have a unity that is as close as His unity to the father (John17:1-26). Paul begged, “that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.” (1 Cor 1:10). I guess that’s why I believe that everything about faith and morals does matter.
By the way, thanks for sing CC instead of RCC. I guess you can see I didn’t take enough thought about that when I chose my handle!
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ALLFORHIM
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Erich
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Au, contraire! There are plenty of Scriptures that weigh in on the topic of infant baptism… scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-III
Actually, as an illustrative example, it’s very much on topic.We are off topic and I dont like to hijack threads. So, my answer is study out the Scriptures.That is my Final answer.
You and I “studied out” the same Scripture and yet we don’t agree on infant baptism. We can’t both be right…there is only one truth. So, we do as Scripture says and “take it to the Church.” It has to be a visible church, it can’t be an invisible one.
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momstheword
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Scripture doesn’t say anything directly about the Trinity, either. You accept that because 2000 years of wisdom that came before you defined it, just as wisdom defined infant baptism, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc.
How is it that protestants just don’t get the point made here that two opposing views cannot both be right?
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mdcpensive1
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Yes, I agree with you that it is important to bring people to Christ, but the question is “Where do you find Christ once there is belief”? Protestant communities preach about Him, sing about Him and share community with like-minded believers, but is that really finding Christ? Please don’t get me wrong, but I truely believe that Christ is working in non-Catholic communities, miracles are being worked and souls are being saved and relationships are being made. This is important but Christ will do that until we are truely one again as in John 17. Someday we all hope for the one faith, one baptism, one truth who is Jesus Christ. But until then, Jesus knows us better than we know ourselves. He was one of us and knows the ins and outs of temptations and emotions. That is why He made His Church promises of His grace through Sacraments which are His promises to us to make up what is lacking in our attempts to reach out to Him. Christ’s Church has seven Sacraments, while other churches have few or none. That is why when we “work out our salvation” we have more opportunities for necessary graces to put on the holiness we need to finally see our Savior face to face.
mdcpensive1
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momstheword
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oops, I meant to quote ALLFORHIM
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Flopfoot
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Allforhim, you keep on saying that the Scriptures are what we need to settle disputes, work out proper teachings, etc. hence the lack of need for a visible church. However, the Scriptures aren’t so crash hot…
I’ve sat down with a Protestant and he tried to go through the Scriptures with me. He would point out all these things like techniques of language to explain what this piece of Scripture ‘really’ meant. So, is this authority based on intellect now? I’m supposed to believe him because I’m not intelligent enough to understand the Scriptures and he is? What if I’m not even intelligent enough to understand what he is saying? Couldn’t he then be speaking some garbage and misleading me - even if he really could and did know what the Scriptures ‘really’ taught?
No, that doesn’t sit right with me. And if that was the case, what’s with all these Protestants who say the the bible is simple to understand and God wants us to all be able to know and see these things clearly in there?
Alright, so what other approaches have they tried? Well, there are some who say that the Holy Spirit is helping them to interpret the Scriptures so that they know what they ‘really’ teach. If that’s the case then don’t we have a structure, a visible church now? If the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to you and not to me, then doesn’t that make you the leader? So some will claim that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth in Scripture to everyone. If that’s the case then how could any 2 people who have read it, have different interpretations? Okay, so then they say that some people can’t listen to the Spirit or that He only helps but the reader can still get it wrong for themselves. Well, that’s what the CC teaches. And that being the case, you can hardly call Scripture the be all and end all authority if people can have so many different interpretations and no one knows who is right.
And isn’t it odd that all this careful intellectual analysis and guidance by the Holy Spirit sort of thing they talk about all goes out the window when I turn to Matt 25:31-46 and say “Look, this says we need to do good works if we want to go to Heaven” and they just say “No, you are wrong”?
Let’s face it, no church and no Christian can stand on Scripture alone. Even the best of human interpreters struggle in trying to understand apparent contradictions, even the best of human interpreters can have complete disagreements with each other on what it says. Without a visible church, all you can do is put your faith in quicksand - 'cause neither you nor your pastor’s interpretation of Scripture is a rock that you can really be confident in standing on.
I’ve sat down with a Protestant and he tried to go through the Scriptures with me. He would point out all these things like techniques of language to explain what this piece of Scripture ‘really’ meant. So, is this authority based on intellect now? I’m supposed to believe him because I’m not intelligent enough to understand the Scriptures and he is? What if I’m not even intelligent enough to understand what he is saying? Couldn’t he then be speaking some garbage and misleading me - even if he really could and did know what the Scriptures ‘really’ taught?
No, that doesn’t sit right with me. And if that was the case, what’s with all these Protestants who say the the bible is simple to understand and God wants us to all be able to know and see these things clearly in there?
Alright, so what other approaches have they tried? Well, there are some who say that the Holy Spirit is helping them to interpret the Scriptures so that they know what they ‘really’ teach. If that’s the case then don’t we have a structure, a visible church now? If the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to you and not to me, then doesn’t that make you the leader? So some will claim that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth in Scripture to everyone. If that’s the case then how could any 2 people who have read it, have different interpretations? Okay, so then they say that some people can’t listen to the Spirit or that He only helps but the reader can still get it wrong for themselves. Well, that’s what the CC teaches. And that being the case, you can hardly call Scripture the be all and end all authority if people can have so many different interpretations and no one knows who is right.
And isn’t it odd that all this careful intellectual analysis and guidance by the Holy Spirit sort of thing they talk about all goes out the window when I turn to Matt 25:31-46 and say “Look, this says we need to do good works if we want to go to Heaven” and they just say “No, you are wrong”?
Let’s face it, no church and no Christian can stand on Scripture alone. Even the best of human interpreters struggle in trying to understand apparent contradictions, even the best of human interpreters can have complete disagreements with each other on what it says. Without a visible church, all you can do is put your faith in quicksand - 'cause neither you nor your pastor’s interpretation of Scripture is a rock that you can really be confident in standing on.
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TobyLue
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AllforHim
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But that is just the thing. You say study out the scriptures. How does one know that our studies and interpretation is correct? Not to get off topic but you say there are no scripture that directly says anything about baby baptism, but just the same there nothing that directly says not to. So who do you look to for the final interpretation> What did the first Christians do when they didnt have the Bible in the first few hundred years of the Church? And even after there was the bible, there was no printing press for another 1000 years or so and even after that very few people could read. There was no KJB around. Who did the people look to if there was an “invisible church”? How were heresies fought if there were no scriptures to go by? Who declared a heresy to be a heresy? Where was this “pillar and foundation of truth”,individual interpretation, with different “truths”?
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mdcpensive1
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The Holy Spirit does give us guidance but that does not make each individual infallible. The Spirit gives that charism to the Church. Our studies and learning must be in line with what the Church teaches as it is the foundation and bulwark of truth. After all, the Church is the body of Christ, and the Spirit is the truth of that Church. We learn from that source, not from opinions voiced by people who are in opposition to it. Even myself, I sometimes say things that are not De Fiede. But that is OK as long as it does not go against Church teachings and the expression of the Magesterium.
mdcpensive1
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Montalban
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I always thought that Protestants argue against this by their own practices.
They say in essence that the ‘form’ of the church on earth doesn’t matter, because we’re all part of one big invisible church with Christ at the head.
However some Protestants have the Eucharist (High Church Anglicans), some talk in tongues, some hold snakes, some do liturgical dance, etc. Either these things don’t matter or they do. If they do, then there’s more to just being an ‘invisible church’ and if they don’t, then why do them? Why would Anglicans bother having ‘the Body’ if it could just as well be bread (only) as low churc Anglicans believe
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ALLFORHIM
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Hi,
I use to think the same way minus being catholic(wasnt raised catholic) It truly is the Holy Spirit who helps me discern what is true and what is not in the bible. I listen to all including here you guys. I will go to the bible passage read it and if it seems unclear to me I pray for God to give me the wisdom to discern the truth. God is amazing how He works. He said in Proverbs He will give us wisdom if we ask and I ask(especially with raising my kids LOL)and He delivers. I get a sense of peace I cant explain. You would have to experience to know what I mean. Im sure you have. I also get AHA moments. It is like God was hitting me over the head and FINALLY I get what He was trying to teach me.
I rely on the truths of the bible and my rock Jesus Christ. I am slowly discovering, through trusting God, that I do not need to rely on man. Im sure this trust will take alot longer to develop completely but I am seeing God work in my life like never before which is enabling me to put more and more trust in Him.
I understand where you are coming from but I stand by my comments even more I stand by my Rock, my Savior, my Jesus.
Peace and Love
I use to think the same way minus being catholic(wasnt raised catholic) It truly is the Holy Spirit who helps me discern what is true and what is not in the bible. I listen to all including here you guys. I will go to the bible passage read it and if it seems unclear to me I pray for God to give me the wisdom to discern the truth. God is amazing how He works. He said in Proverbs He will give us wisdom if we ask and I ask(especially with raising my kids LOL)and He delivers. I get a sense of peace I cant explain. You would have to experience to know what I mean. Im sure you have.
I also get AHA moments. It is like God was hitting me over the head and FINALLY I get what He was trying to teach me.I rely on the truths of the bible and my rock Jesus Christ. I am slowly discovering, through trusting God, that I do not need to rely on man. Im sure this trust will take alot longer to develop completely but I am seeing God work in my life like never before which is enabling me to put more and more trust in Him.
I understand where you are coming from but I stand by my comments even more I stand by my Rock, my Savior, my Jesus.
Peace and Love
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TobyLue
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I’m not trying to be argumentative but isn’t this telling Jesus, “I know better than Your Church”. Would that not be considered a bit arrogant? You say you stand by your Rock Jesus, but still ignore Him when he said “Anyone who listens to you listens to me; anyone who rejects you rejects me and those who reject me reject the one who sent me.”
And in 1 Tim we are told that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth” not the Bible. And in 2 Peter we are told that the interpretation of scripture is never a matter for the individual. You say that you do not need to rely on man, but also in that same chapter it tells us that “When men spoke for God it was the Holy Spirit that moved them.” So it is the Holy Spirit that is moving in the Church. So if we refuse to listen even to the Church we are refusing to listen to Jesus. So if you want to stand by the Rock Our Savior Jesus, we need to obey him and listen to the Church and not to our own interpretation. Again, think about what you are doing, does it follow what the early Christians were doing? Did they trust in the Bible alone? Again ask yourself, did they trust in the Bible alone? This is not taught in the Bible……
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RedHawkCircles
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She’s saying that Jesus established an invisible, abstract, spiritual church in which all believers regardless of denomination are members? For THAT to be true, either: a) Doctrine does not matter or b) Conflicting and contradictory doctrines are acceptable.This is unbiblical.
John 17:21 says “even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” Jesus is praying for a unity that the world can see. It must be visible.
Matthew 5:14 also proves this by saying “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden”, which again means that this church must be visible. The world does not see with invisible eyes.
Matthew 18:15-17 is a long one. Like the rest you should read this one yourself in full but in the end it says “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” Which church? Answer: The one church. Again, with this issue I can give you more evidence if you want it.
Even though we just disproved the idea of an invisible church unity, you should further explain why this idea is not Biblical. Now, since an invisible church of all believers would include people form every denomination, either doctrine does not matter or conflicting doctrine is okay. So does doctrine matter? 1 Timothy 1:3, 1 Timothy 4:1, Ephesians 4:14 and Titus 1:9 all say yes. Can we divide doctrine into essential and non-essential? Matthew 4:4, Matthew 5:18-19 says no. Not at all! And is conflicting/contradictory doctrine okay? John 14:26, John 16:13 and Malachi 3:6 say nope.
John 17:21 says “even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” Jesus is praying for a unity that the world can see. It must be visible.
Matthew 5:14 also proves this by saying “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden”, which again means that this church must be visible. The world does not see with invisible eyes.
Matthew 18:15-17 is a long one. Like the rest you should read this one yourself in full but in the end it says “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” Which church? Answer: The one church. Again, with this issue I can give you more evidence if you want it.
Even though we just disproved the idea of an invisible church unity, you should further explain why this idea is not Biblical. Now, since an invisible church of all believers would include people form every denomination, either doctrine does not matter or conflicting doctrine is okay. So does doctrine matter? 1 Timothy 1:3, 1 Timothy 4:1, Ephesians 4:14 and Titus 1:9 all say yes. Can we divide doctrine into essential and non-essential? Matthew 4:4, Matthew 5:18-19 says no. Not at all! And is conflicting/contradictory doctrine okay? John 14:26, John 16:13 and Malachi 3:6 say nope.
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Montalban
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Which the Bible warns against
2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Did you go to school, or did you just rely on God to teach you?
Even in Acts of the Apostles we see the Ethiopian admitting he needs a teacher.
Acts 8: 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him
But that’s exactly what you’re doing; relying on yourself.
God also says not to put Him to the test.
There’s a difference between saying “The Bible is the Word of God” to “The Bible is the only Word of God”.
You believe the two are synonymous, which goes against the Bible’s own warnings that it doesn’t contain all the sayings of Jesus.
Not everything taught, was written down
John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Paul himself gives a quotation from Jesus that was handed down orally to him: “It is more blessed to give than to receive” (Acts 20:35). This saying is not recorded in the Gospels and must have been passed on to Paul. And therefore Paul himself uses tradition as a guide for teaching.
He also quotes from other non-Biblical sources, such as this early hymn
Ephesians 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
1 Corinthians. 15:3,11
“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. . . . Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed”
1 Corinthians 11:2
The apostle praised those who followed Tradition: “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you”
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Montalban
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Adam’s sin was that of pride; of believing through knowledge he could be like God.
Isn’t this what Protestantism asks?
Isn’t this what Protestantism asks?
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RedHawkCircles
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Whoa, haha! I in now way want to defend heresy but comparing protestantism to the cause of our original sin seems a little thick. Maybe it’s just because I have never heard that before. Good point though for sure.
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RCCDefender
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Hmmm, I didn’t read it like that. I don’t think he’s at all saying that Protestantism is the cause of our original sin.
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kaycee
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You must be thinking of Mormonism.
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cathlicnlovinit
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I’ve just always wondered why the Bible would use a body which is a visible tangible concept to explain something that is invisible. Not that it is impossible. I realize that the body is symbolic of unity in uniqueness (the parts, though different work together). But it seems like if the goal was to discuss an invisible “entity” another symbol could/should/would have been used. Just a thought.
Heather
Heather
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