IRA say 'Armed campaign is over'

[Pondero]

Ani wrote:
“Many people think the Irish are a kind of rebellious English clan instead of an entirely distinct people. De Valera, I understand, was part Spanish.”

They are not a distinct people from the English as there are many Anglo Saxons in Eire, not just Celts. History is history and the past is past. The troubles started when Queen Elizabeth I persecuted Catholics. The Irish held out and won that battle, they kept their Catholic religion and the English lost theirs.

Many years ago I visited Dublin and was amazed at the friendliness of the people there. But, at the same time I was annoyed with the Irish girl I was dating who pointed out at every opportunity, the bullet holes on O’Connell bridge and on his statue. She never lost an opportunity to rub it all in. The purpose of my holiday in those far off days ( being English) was not to get into an argument about the recent war and the Black and Tans.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pondero:

They are not a distinct people from the English as there are many Anglo Saxons in Eire, not just Celts.

Excuse me?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ani Ibi:

Excuse me?

In the background I can hear me grand-da, Captain Jack Clooney, saying, "There’s many a man whose mouth has broken his nose."http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[Ani_Ibi]

This I gather is the Proclamation of 1916 to which the IRA refers in its Declaration of Disarmament 2005:

POBLACHT NA H EIREANN

---

THE PROVISIONAL GOVERNMENT
OF THE
IRISH REPUBLIC
TO THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND
IRISHMEN AND IRISHWOMEN: In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom.

Having organised and trained her manhood through her secret revolutionary organisation, the Irish Republican Brotherhood, and through her open military organisations, the Irish Volunteers and the Irish Citizen Army, having patiently perfected her discipline, having resolutely waited for the right moment to reveal itself, she now seizes that moment, and, supported by her exiled children in America and by gallant allies in Europe, but relying in the first on her own strength, she strikes in full confidence of victory.

We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people. In every generation the Irish people have asserted their right to national freedom and sovereignty; six times during the last three hundred years they have asserted it to arms. Standing on that fundamental right and again asserting it in arms in the face of the world, we hereby proclaim the Irish Republic as a Sovereign Independent State, and we pledge our lives and the lives of our comrades-in-arms to the cause of its freedom, of its welfare, and of its exaltation among the nations.

The Irish Republic is entitled to, and hereby claims, the allegiance of every Irishman and Irishwoman. The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.

Until our arms have brought the opportune moment for the establishment of a permanent National, representative of the whole people of Ireland and elected by the suffrages of all her men and women, the Provisional Government, hereby constituted, will administer the civil and military affairs of the Republic in trust for the people.

We place the cause of the Irish Republic under the protection of the Most High God. Whose blessing we invoke upon our arms, and we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, in humanity, or rapine. In this supreme hour the Irish nation must, by its valour and discipline and by the readiness of its children to sacrifice themselves for the common good, prove itself worthy of the august destiny to which it is called.

Signed on Behalf of the Provisional Government.​

Thomas J. Clarke,
Sean Mac Diarmada, Thomas MacDonagh,
P. H. Pearse, Eamonn Ceannt,
James Connolly, Joseph Plunkett

The seven signatories of the Irish Proclamation (from left):

*Padraig Pearse, James Connolly, Thomas Clarke, Thomas MacDonagh, Sean MacDermott, Joseph Plunkett & Eamonn Ceannt *
All of the above men were executed by the British Government for their efforts in trying to secure a free Ireland!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Canada’s General John de Chastelain will oversee the destruction of arms. A Catholic and a Protestant (clergy) will also oversee.

The Independent Monitoring Commission will monitor further IRA activity. This is composed of reps from England (1), from the U.S. (2), and from Canada (1).

Troops will be reduced to 5000 in the north and paramil fugitives will be allowed to return in the Fall.

There are some outstanding things yet to be worked out on Sinn Fein appearing on the policing board.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pondero:

Many years ago I visited Dublin and was amazed at the friendliness of the people there. But, at the same time I was annoyed with the Irish girl I was dating who pointed out at every opportunity, the bullet holes on O’Connell bridge and on his statue. She never lost an opportunity to rub it all in. The purpose of my holiday in those far off days ( being English) was not to get into an argument about the recent war and the Black and Tans.

You wouldn’t want to visit Paris, then – the guides there will show you every bullet hole fired by the Germans at the Resistance.

If you go to Virginia, you’ll see one battlefield after another – including “Scotch Tom” Nelson’s house, which was Cornwallis’ headquarters at Yorktown – complete with cannon balls sticking in the walls.

And stay away from San Antonio, Texas!! They still remember the Alamo down there.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[Ani_Ibi]

His involvement in the Arone affair does not encourage me. My synopsis: Somalians were raiding Canadian materiels. Some soldiers took matters into their own hands, not imho to stop the raids, but to engage in recreational torture. Pvt Kyle Brown blew the whistle. The ringleader ‘hanged himself’ in his jail cell. Canada held the first torture trial in its history. A sham. The Criminal Code does not match the International Convention in a very crucial way. Brown got 5 years. Command got off scott-free. When Chretien came to power, he marched the Canadian Queen’s Own Airbourne Unit onto the parade square and dismantled the entire unit. Grown men, the best and brightest, were left shamed and weeping on the bare tarmack. For what?

John de Chastelain: Arms and the man
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/305000/images/_307776_chast.jpgBefore being asked to assist Senator George Mitchell in the negotiations that were to lead to the Good Friday agreement, General John de Chastelain’s only experience of Northern Ireland had been a stopover on a childhood visit to the Irish Republic.

It is a measure of the organisational and personal skills that mark the career of this soldier turned diplomat that he was able to grasp so early on the complexities of the situation in which he found himself.

And, given his background, it is even more surprising that he has won the trust of both sides in the peace talks.

Although Canadian, the chairman of the International Commission on Decommissioning is British by upbringing.

Both his parents spied for the British Army in World War II, and he spent a year at the British Army Staff College.

The son of a Scottish oil engineer and an American-born mother, he was born in Romania, educated in Fettes, Edinburgh, and followed his parents to Canada when he was 18.

Fast rise

His military career began almost by accident - he was offered a place at Oxford, but on emigrating chose the Canadian Royal Military College instead.

His ability was spotted early on and he rose quickly through the ranks, serving in Germany and Cyprus.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/northern_ireland/understanding/linkbox_main.gifHe was appointed Canada’s ambassador to the US in 1993 - a post usually reserved for high-ranking diplomats - and a year later Chief of Defence Staff.

It was the diplomatic and negotiating skills he displayed as a soldier, as much as anything, that brought General de Chastelain to the attention of George Mitchell and those heading up the peace process.

He has first hand experience of handling conflict based on opposing tradition.

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continued below…

 

[Franze]

Well, I would like to apologise for what I have said before. Stiofan, I´m sorry for being angrying
I want to say that I am not a fan of Jerry Adams and IRA, in the first place, a terrorist band that have killed 3,300 people isn´t very respectable for me. In the second place Mr Adams are helped bastard people like Otegui in Spain with conferences and other thing.
I was a very proud fan of Ireland and Irish, and I am although, but the friendship IRA-ETA is for me, very hard to see. In my country 800 people have died for this terrorist band, and this friendship bothers me.
I am sad that the islamic apologists insult me using the name IRA for saying that in all religions are terrorists. I know that is untrue but the appariences are important too.
Well, thank for reading to me.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Oh geeeesss. De Chastelain is a flipping

nightmare.

Read the Report of the Somalia Commission of Inquiry and weep. Here are some excerpts:

1. 
   *]Failure in his duty as Commander as defined by analogy to Queen’s Regulations and Orders art. 4.20 and in military custom.
   
   Given our findings above concerning the leadership failures of Gen de Chastelain, and in view of the importance of control and supervision within the chain of command, we conclude that Gen de Chastelain failed as a commander…
   
   Gen de Chastelain’s primary failure may be characterized as one of nonexistent control and indifferent supervision. Quite simply, at many points in his testimony, Gen (ret) de Chastelain appeared quite prepared to assume that all would have worked out if only because of the successes of his previous achievements and because of the trust he placed in the quality of those selected as his subordinates. This benign neglect, or unquestioning reliance, became so common under Gen de Chastelain’s command that it became everyday practice throughout the chain of command below him.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Franze:

the friendship IRA-ETA is for me, very hard to see.

Hi Franze. The IRA have agreed to sever their ties with paramilitary organizations. This, I assume, includes the Basque ETA.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

This is the second half of the article I started posting above on Chastelain:

He played a key role in the OKA Crisis; a two month stand-off between Mohawk Indians and the Canadian army and police over attempts to turn Mohawk burial lands into a recreational area.

The General was involved in the negotiations with the Mohawks which resolved the dispute.

As part of the agreement, some Mohawk weapons were decommissioned.

His career has not been without its moments of controversy.

Torture

An inquiry into the torture and death of a Somali teenager at the hands of members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment said he “failed as a commander” as defence chief when the troops were sent on their disastrous 1992 peace-keeping mission.

When the report was released, he was in Northern Ireland where, within a few months of joining the decommissioning commission in December, 1995, he became chief negotiator George Mitchell’s right-hand man in the peace negotiations.

An optimist, de Chastelain believes that the 22 May, 2000 deadline for complete paramilitary disarmament will be met.

Up to the task

If it is to be, much rests on the hyperactive 61-year-old organisational and negotiating skills.

But those who know him believe that he is up to the task ahead.

He once served with the former head of UN peacekeeping in Bosnia - fellow Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie, who was himself once asked to take on the decommissioning role.

The Major General describes General de Chastelain as “politically sensitive” and said he gets better the more important the role he takes on. If the decommissioning impasse is to be broken, he will need to be.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

More nightmares. From the Report of the Somalia Commission of Inquiry:

• It seems MGen Lewis Mackenzie is generally well regarded:*

"MGen MacKenzie was unique among the senior leaders who appeared before us, and were involved in the Somalia deployment, in evincing a proper understanding of and respect for the inquiry process. MGen (ret) MacKenzie testified before us in an honest and straightforward manner. He alone seemed to understand the necessity to acknowledge error and account for personal shortcomings. We did not always accept everything that he said, but we accept that what he offered us was the truth as he saw it. Unlike some senior officers who appeared before us, he was never less than courteous and respectful in the way that he gave evidence or responded to our questions…

To a certain extent, MGen MacKenzie was a victim of his own success. As a bona fide hero of the Canadian Forces, his superiors wanted to parade his successes in front of the troops and our allies. He was therefore tasked to represent the Canadian Forces (CF) in a wide variety of settings to the detriment of his ability to adequately supervise and control those matters that were his core responsibilities."

However, something went wrong in the deployment of the Airbourne to Somalia.

"MGen MacKenzie was well aware that the Canadian Airbome Regiment (CAR) was facing serious leadership problems in the pre-deployment phase. He was informed by BGen Beno almost immediately upon assuming command at LFCA, and several times thereafter, of concerns raised about LCol Morneault’s leadership,1 and that it might be necessary to replace LCol Morneault. In these communications, MGen MacKenzie was a passive recipient of information: he took no steps to personally investigate the problems he was told about; he did not advise BGen Beno of his opinion concerning what LCol Morneault may have been doing wrong and what his shortcomings may have been;2 and he took no steps to assert his leadership role as a means of solving the crisis. Rather, he limited his response to expressing over the telephone his confidence in BGen Beno’s ability to properly assess and solve the problem,3 and left the situation to develop on its own.
We find MGen MacKenzie’s actions inadequate under the circumstances."

 

[STIOFAN]

Franze:

Well, I would like to apologise for what I have said before. Stiofan, I´m sorry for being angrying
I want to say that I am not a fan of Jerry Adams and IRA, in the first place, a terrorist band that have killed 3,300 people isn´t very respectable for me. In the second place Mr Adams are helped bastard people like Otegui in Spain with conferences and other thing.
I was a very proud fan of Ireland and Irish, and I am although, but the friendship IRA-ETA is for me, very hard to see. In my country 800 people have died for this terrorist band, and this friendship bothers me.
I am sad that the islamic apologists insult me using the name IRA for saying that in all religions are terrorists. I know that is untrue but the appariences are important too.
Well, thank for reading to me.

Thanks apology accepted Franze , no one likes war or terrorism and the IRA wern’t the only ones doing the killing.

I detest all killings from the leagal weapons and the illegal ones, as if God will recognise the difference, well thats debatable ?

But be fair in your summing up, security forces murderd many Irish people just because they were Catholic.

Also the IRA didn’t murder 3,300 people, thats the amount that were killed on all sides.

One word can turn a statement into a complete fabrication.

%between%

 

[vern_humphrey]

STIOFÁN:

Thanks apology accepted Franze , no one likes war or terrorism and the IRA wern’t the only ones doing the killing.

I detest all killings from the leagal weapons and the illegal ones, as if God will recognise the difference, well thats debatable ?

But be fair in your summing up, security forces murderd many Irish people just because they were Catholic.

Also the IRA didn’t murder 3,300 people, thats the amount that were killed on all sides.

One word can turn a statement into a complete fabrication.

In fact, the Loyalist paramilitaries and the security forces together killed more “non-combatants” (“the wee man” to use the jargon) than the IRA. And the security forces often worked hand-in-glove with the Loyalist paramilitaries, passing classified information and designating people to be killed with “deniability.”

 

[Edwin1961]

I am really surprised no one has brought his up:
But doens’t this seem coincidental that this ‘hopeful peace’ is coming on the heels of the Biggest Thread in Europe, the realizm of the Islamic extremeists and thier terriorism?
SInce BOTH side in Ireland KNOW first hand what terriorism does, that maybe their unification can help the defense of GB and the West.

Each side can consult and work together with the Western nations and look intot he mind OF a terriorist and find ways to defeat the Islamic thread.

I’m I off base here, or is there REALLY something to this?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Edwin1961:

doesn’t this seem coincidental that this ‘hopeful peace’ is coming on the heels of the Biggest Thread in Europe, the realizm of the Islamic extremeists and thier terriorism?

I honestly do not know if there is a relation, Edwin. But I think it is a good question. One possibility is that the IRA lost leverage with the advent of Al Qu’eda terrorist activity in Britain.

It seems that the impetus for the IRA to disarm has been going on with some seriousness for at least a decade. This is a concise summary of the history in the main bits. Click here.

Edwin1961:

Since BOTH sides in Ireland KNOW first hand what terrorism does, that maybe their unification can help the defense of GB and the West.

In terms of common interests in Europe, that might make sense at first. But after Pondero’s post this morning, I see that what might make sense in one respect might be seriously foolish in another. That’s my observation and I don’t even live in Ireland. Imagine how Stiofan feels. He lives there.

Edwin1961:

Each side can consult and work together with the Western nations and look into the mind OF a terriorist and find ways to defeat the Islamic thread.

Well, let’s see what happens first. As I said above, I am seriously angry that de Chastelain is on the monitoring committee. Paisely and his lot have some proving to do as well. There is still some distance to go.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

STIOFÁN:

security forces murderd many Irish people just because they were Catholic.

The ‘spin’ was that the Brits had to go in to protect the Catholics. And then the ‘spin’ was that the Brits had to stay to protect the Protestants. But I was watching the British army types. It seemed to me that they were out of control. Watching the news, it often seemed to me that the forces were provoking fights, rather than keeping the peace.

I gather that the Brits are dismantling immediately and that forces are to be reduced to 5000 total in the north by the Fall.

 

[Franze]

Ann Ibi 9/11, the war against terrorism and IRA final violence has a great relationship.
We come back to the Middle Ages, christians, more joined that the last 5 centuries, and islam raising and menacing.

 

[Franze]

STIOFÁN:

Thanks apology accepted Franze , no one likes war or terrorism and the IRA wern’t the only ones doing the killing.

I detest all killings from the leagal weapons and the illegal ones, as if God will recognise the difference, well thats debatable ?

But be fair in your summing up, security forces murderd many Irish people just because they were Catholic.

Also the IRA didn’t murder 3,300 people, thats the amount that were killed on all sides.

One word can turn a statement into a complete fabrication.

%between%

Do you have some link about what security forces made, I would like to read about it, thanks

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Franze:

Ann Ibi 9/11, the war against terrorism and IRA final violence has a great relationship.
We come back to the Middle Ages, christians, more joined that the last 5 centuries, and islam raising and menacing.

Yes, Franze. Your point of view is more visionary than mine. Pope Benedict has written on the peoples of Europe, their relationship to homeland. To be truthful I have not read the Pope’s opinion on this in any depth.

Another angle to this is found in this idiom: The devil we know or the angels we don’t? As I said before, the Irish know the English very well. Some of the paramilitaries must also know the terrorist world well enough to know the wisdom of getting out fast.

We will probably not know the story of that for a long time. Then again…