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Pondero
Guest
vern humphrey:
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Vern nos dio una link arriba. Dentro esa link, hay otra link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/northern_ireland/history/default.stm
Alli se puede encontrar informes sucintos a proposito de los acontecimientos principales desde 1170 AD.
Lea 1968-69: The troops are sent in hasta 1988-89: Gibraltar killings and release of the Guildford Four Despues de estos informes, hay informes a proposito de las negociaciones hacia la paz. Esta guerra (desde 1969 y Bloody Sunday en particolar) es la mas reciente.
Pero la historia de guerra duraba varios siglos en irlandia. La lucha para la independencia es inolvidable. Se dieron por un golpe mucha esperanza y mucha tristeza.
Too long a sacrifice
Can make a stone of the heart.
O when may it suffice?
That is Heaven’s part, our part
To murmur name upon name,
As a mother names her child
When sleep at last has come
On limbs that had run wild.
What is it but nightfall?
No, no, not night but death;
Was it needless death after all?
…
Now and in time to be,
Wherever green is worn,
Are changed, changed utterly:
A terrible beauty is born.
(Easter 1916, William Butler Yeats)
El pais fue separado. Se libero el sud. Se quedo bajo la inglaterra el norte.
Vern nos conto que mucha gente se huyo muchos anos anteriormente de la irlandia para la espana en un barque para gansos. Por eso, se llamaron The Wild Geese. Despues de un rato ayudo a los rebeldes in la Revolucion Americana.
Voy a buscar una link que da informes sobre las fuerzas de seguridad. Hasta luego. Ani. Oh, ademas, si necesitas diccionario espanol/ingles tengo esto: http://www.wordreference.com/
Al hablar sobre la IRA, me gustaria oir tus historias sobre lo que paso en espana con la ETA. Otra thread? Creo que hay diferencias. Los sentimientos de nacionalismo son iguales. Sin embargo, hay temporada que los vascos hayan tenido su propria patria? Nos interesa aprender la situacion iberica.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
You must not have taken the right tour – I can recall seeing the plaques on the walls commemorating where one or another Resistance fighters were killed. There is a fountain (exactly which one I forget) with a bronze statue full of bullet holes.
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Franze
Guest
Someday, Ann Ibi, I will speak about ETA, the problem is the language, all the good links are in spanish and this produces boring in forum´s people.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
vern humphrey:
I say we give Pondero some homework. Let’s send him to St Paul’s Basillica tomorrow for Mass. It’s on Power Street off Queen Street east of Parliament. In front of the Basillica there is a memorial to the Irish who died in the Harbour of Toronto. We’d like you to tell us what the inscription reads, Pondero. A way to redeem yourself.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Me podrias dar las links? Por cierto, como se dice ‘link’?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Ani Ibi:
Ah, yer a divil.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gifI say we give Pondero some homework. Let’s send him to St Paul’s Basillica tomorrow for Mass. It’s on Power Street off Queen Street east of Parliament. In front of the Basillica there is a memorial to the Irish who died in the Harbour of Toronto. We’d like you to tell us what the inscription reads, Pondero. A way to redeem yourself.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Bueno, Franze. About your question on security forces. Let’s start with the main groups:
National or Republican political parties:
Social Democrat and Labour Party (SDLP)
Sinn Fein (Gerry Adams), has ‘insight into the thinking of’ the paramilitary Provisional Irish Republican Army
Unionist or Loyalist political parties:
The Ulster Unionist Party
Democratic Unionist Party (Reverend Ian Paisley)
The Progressive Unionist Party (David Irvine), has ‘insight into the thinking of’ the paramilitary Ulster Volunteer Force
Bob McCartney’s Party
Other parties:
The Alliance Party of Northern Ireland
The Women’s Coalition
The Natural Law Party
The Conservative Party
Republican paramilitary groups:
The Provisional Irish Republican Army
The Real Irish Republican Army
The Continuity Irish Republican Army
The Irish National Liberation Army
Loyalist paramilitary groups:
The Ulster Defence Association
The Ulster Volunteer Force
National or Republican political parties:
Social Democrat and Labour Party (SDLP)
Sinn Fein (Gerry Adams), has ‘insight into the thinking of’ the paramilitary Provisional Irish Republican Army
Unionist or Loyalist political parties:
The Ulster Unionist Party
Democratic Unionist Party (Reverend Ian Paisley)
The Progressive Unionist Party (David Irvine), has ‘insight into the thinking of’ the paramilitary Ulster Volunteer Force
Bob McCartney’s Party
Other parties:
The Alliance Party of Northern Ireland
The Women’s Coalition
The Natural Law Party
The Conservative Party
Republican paramilitary groups:
The Provisional Irish Republican Army
The Real Irish Republican Army
The Continuity Irish Republican Army
The Irish National Liberation Army
Loyalist paramilitary groups:
The Ulster Defence Association
The Ulster Volunteer Force
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
The current role of the armed forces in Northern Ireland is as follows:
To support the Police Service of Northern Ireland in the defeat of terrorism and the maintenance of Public Order in order to assist Her Majesty’s Government’s objective of returning Northern Ireland to normality…’
Northern Ireland is subdivided into two brigade areas, which exactly match the two Police Regions: 8 Infantry Brigade (Ballykelly) and 39 Infantry Brigade (Belfast)
Read more.
SINCE THE British Government’s enforced partition of Ireland in 1921, they have systematically created and sustained a military state in the six north-eastern counties of Ireland.
This garrison comprising the regular British army regiments, the locally ercruited Royal Irish Regiment (RUC), currently hold the occupied area with a combined military strength of about 32 085 personnel. the British army has a total of 135 installations iwthin their control, while the RUC has a total of 161.
In addition to these bases the British government have installed throughout the North a massive network of security restrictions, which affect every aspect of civilian life. Add to this the surveillance capacity of these forces and one arrives at an appreciation of the overpowering nature of this military presence.
Read more.
For British Army in Ireland click here.
For the Royal Ulster Constabulary click here.
To support the Police Service of Northern Ireland in the defeat of terrorism and the maintenance of Public Order in order to assist Her Majesty’s Government’s objective of returning Northern Ireland to normality…’
Northern Ireland is subdivided into two brigade areas, which exactly match the two Police Regions: 8 Infantry Brigade (Ballykelly) and 39 Infantry Brigade (Belfast)
Read more.
SINCE THE British Government’s enforced partition of Ireland in 1921, they have systematically created and sustained a military state in the six north-eastern counties of Ireland.
This garrison comprising the regular British army regiments, the locally ercruited Royal Irish Regiment (RUC), currently hold the occupied area with a combined military strength of about 32 085 personnel. the British army has a total of 135 installations iwthin their control, while the RUC has a total of 161.
In addition to these bases the British government have installed throughout the North a massive network of security restrictions, which affect every aspect of civilian life. Add to this the surveillance capacity of these forces and one arrives at an appreciation of the overpowering nature of this military presence.
Read more.
For British Army in Ireland click here.
For the Royal Ulster Constabulary click here.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
The following is a website listing all those killed in the war between 1969 to 1993:
war-memorial.net/mem_det.asp?ID=8
When you get to the webpage, click ‘GO TO MEMORIAL.’
When you get to that page, go to ‘tabulations.’ You can list the dead according to different categories. One category is ‘Organization responsible for death.’ Another category is ‘Summary of Organization responsible for death.’
Total war deaths: 3523
British security responsible for 363 war deaths
Irish security responsible for 5 war deaths
Loyalist paramilitary responsible for 1020 war deaths
Republican paramilitary responsible for 2055 war deaths
Unknown assailants responsible for 80 war deaths
war-memorial.net/mem_det.asp?ID=8
When you get to the webpage, click ‘GO TO MEMORIAL.’
When you get to that page, go to ‘tabulations.’ You can list the dead according to different categories. One category is ‘Organization responsible for death.’ Another category is ‘Summary of Organization responsible for death.’
Total war deaths: 3523
British security responsible for 363 war deaths
Irish security responsible for 5 war deaths
Loyalist paramilitary responsible for 1020 war deaths
Republican paramilitary responsible for 2055 war deaths
Unknown assailants responsible for 80 war deaths
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rjs1
Guest
After Franze posted this statement there were a lot a posts attacking what he said.
How depressing!
He dared to suggest that the Catholic faith should cause us to join not to separate.
Instead of praying for this, we then got a lot of posts going through past history and dragging up every reason why we should continue our hates and predjudices.
Please peolple give peace a chance. Both sides have done terrible things. I agree with Franze that nationalism of any sort can be destructive if it is not ballanced with a genuine love of our fellow man.
I AM proud to have English, Scottish and Irish blood in my veins, both Protestant and Catholic. I am NOT proud of some of the things the English, Scottish and Irish have done. We have to stop excusing violence by blaiming the other side.
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Franze
Guest
Ani Ibi:
Link=vinculo
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Franze
Guest
Thanks rjs1
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Franze is cool. Your assessment is inaccurate. He rubbed Stiofan the wrong way because his statement was a little bald, not having the nuances of very advanced English. Franze apologized and Stiofan accepted the apology. Furthermore Franze demonstrated good faith by asking to learn about Irish history.
It is not useful to take sides. I see you have taken sides. Are you hoping to start a fight?
Idealism and a solid faith is good. However so is justice. Over here in Canada it is easy for me to say something like Oh I think England and Ireland have common interests, particularly in the European community. And therefore they should work together. That is logical, in one sense.
But give Stiofan a break. Stiofan actually lives in Northern Ireland. He has a valid point of view. He has first-hand knowledge of English ways. The most important thing to understand about Ireland is that it has a radically different culture from that of England. The Irish are not English-with-freckles.
In one of the World Wars, Ireland declared neutrality. England asked Ireland if English ships could harbour in Irish ports in exchange for whatever. Very logical. Except for Ireland’s experience of English ways. After the War, English ships would still be in Irish ports. And likely many Irish would be working for the English shipyards. So Ireland said no.
The war between Ireland and England has been going on for centuries. It will take time to heal. It will take more time to establish commonality. Be realistic. Please do not impose your own desires on a country in which you do not live.
You presume too much.
Stop! I posted that history because it was clear that some people had no knowledge of that history. Pondero, for example. Franze also asked for links so that he could learn about the history of the security forces. How can you learn about the security forces if you do not learn about what they did?
Also part of the history was about General de Chatelain. He is on the monitoring committee for the disarmament. We need to know if he can do the job. It is evident that he cannot do the job. More than that, he is a liability on that particular job and will likely do more damage than good.
Continue our hates and prejudicies? You go too far. A prejudice is a judgment which is based on no knowledge of the situation. Your opinion, for example, is a prejudice. ‘Hate’ is an overstatement. Suspicion is accurate. Suspicion in view of the facts is legitimate.
Why don’t you show us how it is done? Give Stiofan a chance.
There again. If you had read some of the history you would learn the many many ways in which the Irish have helped each other in hard times: north and south.
Better to die on my feet than live on my knees. Remind me: what was the American Revolution about? No, I’m serious. Tell me what the American Revolution was about. Why is the American Revolution good for you and the War of Independence not good for the Irish?
Another thing which I am suggesting is that one exercise restraint in telling Ireland what to do – in telling Stiofan what to do – especially when one has demonstrated one’s unwillingness to learn from history.
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sanpablo
Guest
I’m so glad that they are disarming. I’m very Irish. This terrorism isn’t working, its disgusting. The IRA used to be the actual army, back when Michael Collins led it in the 1910’s and 20’s. Recently it has just been bombing people. Its good they realized that that wouldn’t work. I just pray that the other side puts down their arms too.
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STIOFAN
Guest
Ani Ibi:
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
STIOFÁN:
STIOFÁN:
STIOFÁN:
After all we stoked their literary fires for quite some time. My friend’s ancestor started the Joyce Bank and printed his own money. This helped the farmers when things got bad.
The English had a law on the books that folks could only bank with the Bank of England or London or whatever it was. That was very hard on the farmers. With Joyce money, people could make sure their neighbours were taken care of. That way the money stayed in the community.
STIOFÁN:
By the way, here is my opinion on the Monitoring Commission for what it is worth. It would be a really good idea to ask that de Chastelain be removed from this Commission. You are going to have no end of troubles if he stays. While it is true that having a Canadian monitor is a good move because of our experience with multilateralism and diplomacy, de Chastelain is the wrong choice. Someone who would be excellent and has a very good reputation is Lt Gen Romeo Dallaire. He is a Quebeker and has much heart for the underdog. He is very calm, experienced, and just a good man. Catholic too, by the way.
I gather the British are dismantling as we speak. There are supposed to be 5000 Northern Irish security forces in the north by Fall.
STIOFÁN:
I gather things are better in the south. My friends were in Dublin only a few years ago. The influx of European Union funds there seems to have helped. Now some people are saying that it is only digital money and people are becoming internet millionaires but that things are going to crash again in a few years. Nevertheless earning a decent salary goes a long way to instilling some optimism and self-confidence.
STIOFÁN:
True, and frankly one needs to ask how well off England would be without Ireland.
After all we stoked their literary fires for quite some time. My friend’s ancestor started the Joyce Bank and printed his own money. This helped the farmers when things got bad.The English had a law on the books that folks could only bank with the Bank of England or London or whatever it was. That was very hard on the farmers. With Joyce money, people could make sure their neighbours were taken care of. That way the money stayed in the community.
STIOFÁN:
My friend says that the shock of war gets passed along in the blood for generations.
By the way, here is my opinion on the Monitoring Commission for what it is worth. It would be a really good idea to ask that de Chastelain be removed from this Commission. You are going to have no end of troubles if he stays. While it is true that having a Canadian monitor is a good move because of our experience with multilateralism and diplomacy, de Chastelain is the wrong choice. Someone who would be excellent and has a very good reputation is Lt Gen Romeo Dallaire. He is a Quebeker and has much heart for the underdog. He is very calm, experienced, and just a good man. Catholic too, by the way.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
A long article in today’s Arkansas Democrat-Gazette discusses the continuing violence between Loyalist Para-military gangs, which are fighting over turf.
It would seem to me that if the IRA disarms, the Loyalists should also disarm.
It would seem to me that if the IRA disarms, the Loyalists should also disarm.
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STIOFAN
Guest
vern humphrey:
Part of it is since they can’t be active in the north’s conflict, the get invloved in drugs.
A lot of it is turf wars, anyway the emphasis was always on the IRA to give up it’s arms, while so-called loyalists hold firmly on to theirs.
And what do you think the protestant leaders say to those in the killing feud ? " calm down"
Yes “calm down”
if the shoe was on the other foot it would never be off the news.
Also it’s an abuse of the word loyal, they claim to be loyal to Queen and Crown, but they definately aren’t.
Anyway when it comes to condemning violence in the North, if it’s the IRA we never hear the end of it, but if it’s the loyalists, UVF etc: well the silence is deafening.
Yes it’s true they’re turning on each-other, in the past 2 or 3 weeks two loyalists have been shot dead by their own, one was only 18.
Part of it is since they can’t be active in the north’s conflict, the get invloved in drugs.
A lot of it is turf wars, anyway the emphasis was always on the IRA to give up it’s arms, while so-called loyalists hold firmly on to theirs.
And what do you think the protestant leaders say to those in the killing feud ? " calm down"
Yes “calm down”
if the shoe was on the other foot it would never be off the news.Also it’s an abuse of the word loyal, they claim to be loyal to Queen and Crown, but they definately aren’t.
Anyway when it comes to condemning violence in the North, if it’s the IRA we never hear the end of it, but if it’s the loyalists, UVF etc: well the silence is deafening.
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condan
Guest
The IRA may disarm but the problem remains: Britain occupies a foreign country. The six counties have been cut off from their countrymen so that the crown may retain control in order to protect the likes of “Rev.” Ian Paisley and the orange order. (Someone mentioned earlier that the parties involved need to be more Christian. Please address that request to mr. paisley.)
Have the orangemen stopped antagonizing the Catholic majority each and every July? Have they stopped their hateful rhetoric and violence? Do they intend to do so now that the IRA has disarmed? Is there a comparable Catholic social rite in which the Catholics incite violence without a word of public condemnation?
The IRA is disarming because not to do so will continue to hurt their image and cause as they are constantly compared, in our post 9/11 world, to Islamic terrorists by those who are unable to tell the difference between indiscriminate and insane violence against civilian targets in an effort to totally dominate all those not proscribing to their particular world view and an 800+ year long struggle to do nothing more than maintain control over one’s homeland much like, as was pointed out earlier in this thread, the American Revolution.
The problem still remains.
Have the orangemen stopped antagonizing the Catholic majority each and every July? Have they stopped their hateful rhetoric and violence? Do they intend to do so now that the IRA has disarmed? Is there a comparable Catholic social rite in which the Catholics incite violence without a word of public condemnation?
The IRA is disarming because not to do so will continue to hurt their image and cause as they are constantly compared, in our post 9/11 world, to Islamic terrorists by those who are unable to tell the difference between indiscriminate and insane violence against civilian targets in an effort to totally dominate all those not proscribing to their particular world view and an 800+ year long struggle to do nothing more than maintain control over one’s homeland much like, as was pointed out earlier in this thread, the American Revolution.
The problem still remains.
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