IRA say 'Armed campaign is over'

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

Northern Ireland had such bizzare voting laws that gave extra votes to people with property.

Very strange. How could they keep a straight face while reading these provisions into law?
vern humphrey:

Now, however, the Catholics are pulling ahead in population – when today’s toddlers can vote, the Catholics will be in the majority. What happens then?

Hhhhhmmm. The revenge of the cradle?
vern humphrey:

It means there is a window of opportunity. If the Loyalists are wise, they will use it to create a society so fair that their fellow citizens will come ot love, not hate their country, and when they become the minority they can live in peace and prosperity.

It can’t hurt to have a dream.

 

[burnside]

"The.Course.of.Irish.History"by.T.W.Moody&F.X.Martin
Page281-My.Ancestor,O’Donovan-Rossa,(Amazon.com)
C’mon,rattle.my.cage!!!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Vern: Could you tell us about the Twelve Methods and the Stalker Affair please? Ani

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ani Ibi:

Vern: Could you tell us about the Twelve Methods and the Stalker Affair please? Ani

In the early '70s, a group of suspected (that is, not convicted) IRA members were turned over to a special intelligence group for experimentation in interrogation methods. The Twelve Methods were developed from these experiments. About half of the subjects later committed suicide.

Ian Stalker, Deputy Commissioner for Midlands was ordered to investigate a “shoot to kill” incident. A group of boys found a cache of ancient (Model 1871/86 Mausers) and reported to the authorities. Later the boys went back to look at the cache and were shot and killed.

The investigation led to Stalker looking into the “shoot to kill” policy and the motivation behind these shootings. Stalker was suddenly charged with associating with an underworld figure – because he attended a party which his boss (who brought the charges) also attended. He was forced out of the police.

 

[burnside]

Stalker.bombed.by.Freemasons:-

bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2005/07/25/stalker_shoot_to_kill_250705_feature.shtml

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/57463.stm

 

[vern_humphrey]

burnside:

Stalker.bombed.by.Freemasons:-

bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2005/07/25/stalker_shoot_to_kill_250705_feature.shtml

Stalker is quite right about there being little linkage between the shoot to kill policy in Northern Ireland and the killing of an innocent man in London.

But the lesson of the Stalker Affair is that over time, shoot to kill policies attract men who LIKE to kill, and use that policy to pursue their “hobby” with impunity.

 

[Pondero]

Ani wrote:

":The presence of the English in Ireland does not prove that the Irish are not Irish. That was tried with the Plantation. The Plantation did not make the Irish into non-Irish. "
Well of course they are Irish, I don’t remember anyone mentioning the Gaelic language which they spoke and which if you look at any public notice was used when I visited Dublin. It is a little like our road signs being in French and English.

You know anyone can look up, including Vern, websites and become an instant expert on Irish history.

Let me conclude with sentiments I have expressed earlier, let us hope that " IRA say Armed campaign is over." is** true.**
**We have gone off track somewhere along the line, getting bogged down in Irish history.**What should be emphasized is the willingness of the IRA to carry out their campaign of disarmament. Some people, including yourself have discussed this topic, and the willingness of the Protestant paramilitary units to do likewise. How successful will it be. Time will tell of course. There have been faults on both sides of course, but two wrongs don’t make a right.

 

[burnside]

vern humphrey:

Stalker is quite right about there being little linkage between the shoot to kill policy in Northern Ireland and the killing of an innocent man in London.

But the lesson of the Stalker Affair is that over time, shoot to kill policies attract men who LIKE to kill, and use that policy to pursue their “hobby” with impunity.

I.agree,Vern.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pondero:

You know anyone can look up, including Vern, websites and become an instant expert on Irish history.

I thought we were trying to show more Christian charity on this thread?

Pondero:

Let me conclude with sentiments I have expressed earlier, let us hope that " IRA say Armed campaign is over." is** true.**
**We have gone off track somewhere along the line, getting bogged down in Irish history.**What should be emphasized is the willingness of the IRA to carry out their campaign of disarmament. Some people, including yourself have discussed this topic, and the willingness of the Protestant paramilitary units to do likewise. How successful will it be. Time will tell of course. There have been faults on both sides of course, but two wrongs don’t make a right.

No, but your original point, that there should be a union between Ireland and Great Britain ignores history.

 

[Pondero]

Vern wrote:

“No, but your original point, that there should be a union between Ireland and Great Britain ignores history.”

I never said that. It is a figment of your imagination. I believe in democracy and if the people in the six counties want to join Eire then Britain should let them do so. This is best done by referendum, a free vote, perhaps taken after each five year period. The problem is knowing when to end this free vote. Of course if they vote eventually to become part of Eire, then so be it, it will obviously end there. And with the Catholic numbers increasing, that is probably what will happen.

I really don’t get your point about a lack of Christian charity. It is misplaced, this is a forum for debate.

You did after all say I knew very little about Irish history without me giving my side of the story, and expressing myself on what Irish history I knew.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pondero:

Vern wrote:

“No, but your original point, that there should be a union between Ireland and Great Britain ignores history.”

I never said that. It is a figment of your imagination.

You did support that position when you said,

They are not a distinct people from the English as there are many Anglo Saxons in Eire, not just Celts. History is history and the past is past. The troubles started when Queen Elizabeth I persecuted Catholics. The Irish held out and won that battle, they kept their Catholic religion and the English lost theirs.

Pondero:

I believe in democracy and if the people in the six counties want to join Eire then Britain should let them do so. This is best done by referendum, a free vote, perhaps taken after each five year period.

A referrendum of all of Ireland? Majority rule?

Pondero:

The problem is knowing when to end this free vote. Of course if they vote eventually to become part of Eire, then so be it, it will obviously end there. And with the Catholic numbers increasing, that is probably what will happen.

It almost certainly will – IF democracy prevails. The history of Northern Ireland is that democracy is most notable by its absense.

Pondero:

I really don’t get your point about a lack of Christian charity. It is misplaced, this is a forum for debate.

If that’s your position, it’s your position – not anyone elses’

Pondero:

You did after all say I knew very little about Irish history without me giving my side of the story, and expressing myself on what Irish history I knew.

Given the huge gap in the timeline you laid out, and the missing bits, it struck me that some additional history was in order.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pondero:

Ani wrote:

":The presence of the English in Ireland does not prove that the Irish are not Irish. That was tried with the Plantation. The Plantation did not make the Irish into non-Irish. "

Well of course they are Irish, I don’t remember anyone mentioning the Gaelic language which they spoke and which if you look at any public notice was used when I visited Dublin. It is a little like our road signs being in French and English.

Ah, good. Well the English even condeded the French were a distinct people in North America and allowed them their language and religion. What happened in Ireland?

Speaking about language: did you know that a law had to be passed in Dublin that no police officer could ask for a person to translate his or her name? That is, if a person’s name is Sean, then the police officer cannot ask him to say that it is John (even though translated, it is John) and cannot write it down as John. That was because the Irish were losing their names and their lineages. It was more than that, the Irish put more store in their names than other cultures did.

Pondero:

You know anyone can look up, including Vern, websites and become an instant expert on Irish history.

If that is true, then why doesn’t ‘anyone’ then?

And anyway it is not true. Much of these things we know already. As for me I look up to verify and for the others. That’s part of the purpose of having a news forum: so that we can share information. For the things I do not know, I am happy to have the links and comments from the other people.

If you’re going to apologize then apologize. Don’t say you’re sorry and then give me a list of ‘buts’ and innuendos. And as for Vern: I wouldn’t take him on, Pondero. He’s one of the people on the board known for his knowledge.

Pondero:

Let me conclude with sentiments I have expressed earlier, let us hope that " IRA say Armed campaign is over" is** true.**

OK, let’s hope that then.

We have gone off track somewhere along the line, getting bogged down in Irish history.

I am floored. Surely you are not suggesting that we can have a discussion about the disarmament of the IRA without referring to history?

Pondero:

What should be emphasized is the willingness of the IRA to carry out their campaign of disarmament.

Go for it. By the way, I spent some time discussing one of the people appointed to oversee the disarmament: General de Chastelain. Any thoughts?

Pondero:

two wrongs don’t make a right.

How do you apply this axiom to this situation?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Originally Posted by vern humphrey
*Stalker is quite right about there being little linkage between the shoot to kill policy in Northern Ireland and the killing of an innocent man in London.

But the lesson of the Stalker Affair is that over time, shoot to kill policies attract men who LIKE to kill, and use that policy to pursue their “hobby” with impunity.*

burnside:

I.agree,Vern.

I agree too.

 

[rjs1]

Ani Ibi:

*It is not useful to take sides. I see you have taken sides. Are you hoping to start a fight?

*The Irish are not English-with-freckles.

• Please do not impose your own desires on a country in which you do not live.

*You presume too much.

*Continue our hates and prejudicies? You go too far. A prejudice is a judgment which is based on no knowledge of the situation. Your opinion, for example, is a prejudice.

*Why don’t you show us how it is done? Give Stiofan a chance.

*There again. If you had read some of the history you would learn the many many ways in which the Irish have helped each other in hard times: north and south.

*Why is the American Revolution good for you and the War of Independence not good for the Irish?

*Another thing which I am suggesting is that one exercise restraint in telling Ireland what to do – in telling Stiofan what to do – especially when one has demonstrated one’s unwillingness to learn from history.

There are a number of assumptions here.

By supporting Franze’s desire for peace I am not “trying to start a fight”. That is very volatile language and not helpful.

I made no attempt to suggest that the Irish were English with freckles or that they should become part of one nation with England.

I was very careful NOT to say that one side or the other was wrong. Rather I made a point of saying that both sides had made mistakes and that we as Catholics should be sorry for our part in the conflict and aim for a better way.

Have I told Ireland what to do? No. All I have said is that the ways of violence are not the best ways; particularly the ways of bombings, kneecappings and assassinations.

I can only repeat my point that we need to stop justifying terrorism and violence.

 

[Pondero]

No Vern, I mean a referendum of the six counties only.( I realize that you are getting in a dig against the British government who originally allowed six Northern counties to be part of the UK ) That is OK we all have our biases.

Quote:
They are not a distinct people from the English as there are many Anglo Saxons in Eire, not just Celts. History is history and the past is past. The troubles started when Queen Elizabeth I persecuted Catholics. The Irish held out and won that battle, they kept their Catholic religion and the English lost theirs. end of my quote.

There are more Celts than Anglo Saxons by far, as I pointed out in a later post. If things had been different, if Queen Elizabeth I, had been Catholic and all subsequent monarchs Catholic then all Ireland may have been content to be part of the UK,

But, as a believer in democracy, if at any time any distinct group with a majority within a country which distinguishes itself by separate and distinct culture, language, religion or race wishes to break off from the mother country, then a referendum should in the interest of fairness be held and the vote respected.

I could point to Quebec in Canada as an example of that. The last referendum was very, very close and we could have lost them…( Seeing they get a very good deal from the federal government they want it both ways, for the goodies to continue coming **and **separation… but, that is another story.)

 

[STIOFAN]

rjs1:

I can only repeat my point that we need to stop justifying terrorism and violence.

True ! and we also need to stop justifying the presence of another foreign country in Ireland that is the crux of the problem.
Ironic or what, but if the unionists had given Catholics a fair deal, then the past 30 years would have been different.
Anyway we’ll see if Ian Paisley will sit down with sinn fein, he’s dragging his heels, but after looking at him roaring for 30 years, well he’s a has-been, he’s on his way out.
But there are other hard liners waiting in the wings, Peter the punt Robinson, Nigel Dodds, and Ian Paisley junior, he’s been well groomed by his father.
I think if the IRA had thrown David Trimble a life line with this announcement, then we would be in a far better position, but with the DUP in power well I’m not hopeful, but miracles do happen.

Anyway Ani, heres what has been happening in loyalists circles, Belfast to be precise. news.google.co.uk/news?q=recent+loyalist+feud&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=nn&oi=newsr

Heres another link Franz, more state killings, and Angela D’Arcy murdered in my home town, a real threat she was, she was handicapped. cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/murray.htm

 

[Pondero]

Ani Wrote:

“And as for Vern: I wouldn’t take him on, Pondero. He’s one of the people on the board known for his knowledge”

I will take anyone on if I think they are wrong, including you.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pondero:

Ani Wrote:

“And as for Vern: I wouldn’t take him on, Pondero. He’s one of the people on the board known for his knowledge”

I will take anyone on if I think they are wrong, including you.

Understood. Do you think Vern and I are wrong?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

rjs1:

the ways of violence are not the best ways; particularly the ways of bombings, kneecappings and assassinations.

1. By claiming that violence is not the best way, do you propose that there were viable alternatives to violence in order to achieve justice, given the choices made by the British forces and the Royal Ulster Constabulary?

rjs1:

I can only repeat my point that we need to stop justifying terrorism and violence.

1. Who is ‘we’?
2. Ireland has been given the dubious pleasure of being the only occupied European nation. Vern has already listed the various methods of oppressing Catholics. Job descrimination. Language discrimination. Disenfranchisement (up to 6 votes per person if you’re a Protestant). Inflammatory parades through Catholic areas. Assaults and murders. Seizure of land. An out-of-control occupying army. What viable alternatives to violence do you propose in order to achieve justice?
3. No one has explained the American Revolution to me. It seems to me that the American Revolution is good enough for the Americans but the Irish cannot have their War of Independence. Is this not a double standard?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pondero:

No Vern, I mean a referendum of the six counties only.( I realize that you are getting in a dig against the British government who originally allowed six Northern counties to be part of the UK ) That is OK we all have our biases.

Biasses? Getting in a dig? What Vern has done is brought information to this discussion. What you have done is bring an anecdote about an Irish girl who graced you with a date.

Pondero:

The troubles started when Queen Elizabeth I persecuted Catholics.

The persecution was racial. It just so happened that the persecuted race was Catholic.

Pondero:

There are more Celts than Anglo Saxons by far

Whether or not one group is in the majority or not is not the point. The persecution is the point.

Pondero:

But, as a believer in democracy, if at any time any distinct group with a majority within a country which distinguishes itself by separate and distinct culture, language, religion or race wishes to break off from the mother country, then a referendum should in the interest of fairness be held and the vote respected.

I could point to Quebec in Canada as an example of that. The last referendum was very, very close and we could have lost them…( Seeing they get a very good deal from the federal government they want it both ways, for the goodies to continue coming **and **separation… but, that is another story.)

As I said earlier, the English gave Quebekers language and religion rights. Notwithstanding that, they persecuted them for some time. Are you suggesting that Quebec and Ireland are comparable? If so then please tell us about the language and religion rights given to the Irish. Moreover, please tell us about the goodies given to the Irish.