IRA say 'Armed campaign is over'

[vern_humphrey]

Pondero:

I don’t think so.The people of Northern Ireland, should be the only ones consulted as they are the only ones involved directly. The fighting, the murders, the hatred, the clashes between various para-military groups are in Northern Ireland, not in Eire. The people of Northern Ireland, all 1.7 million of them are divided by religion, Protestant against Catholics, and in numbers taken as a whole, the Protestants would be in a majority at present.

If it had been put to a vote of the whole of Ireland, the problem would never have surfaced, and much blood and suffering would be avoided.

Let me point out that while Eire is mostly Catholic, there ARE Protestants living there – when was the last time you heard of Protestants in Eire fighting and blowing people up?

Eire has an enviable record in treating minorities fairly. That experience ought to be put to use.

Pondero:

However, as I stated earlier, a county by county referendum vote ( one vote per adult person) would be fine. It would give the predominantly Catholic counties an opportunity to opt out and join Eire.

And suppose a barony in one county votes one way and the rest of the county another?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pondero:

No, of course the UK is not a political party but it is in control, and Northern Ireland is legally part of the UK. The difference is this between other parts of the former British Empire and Northern Ireland. A majority of the people in Northern Ireland wish to remain with the UK

.

That very point was made by an Irish General. In the next issue of An Phoblacht/Republican News, P. O’Neill (the anonymous spokesman for the IRA) replied, “That’s what the war is all about, isn’t it?”

We don’t want to re-ignite this conflict!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pondero:

I don’t think so.The people of Northern Ireland, should be the only ones consulted as they are the only ones involved directly.

That depends on what point in time you (arbitrarily) decide that the troubles started.

Pondero:

The fighting, the murders, the hatred, the clashes between various para-military groups are in Northern Ireland, not in Eire.

Northern Ireland came about in the first place because of an occupation by England of Ireland. Ireland was invaded. Now you are saying that the invaders and their progeny have a legitimate say in the destiny of the land they invaded.

Pondero:

The people of Northern Ireland, all 1.7 million of them are divided by religion

The invasion of was of one people by another people. As I have said (many times now) the persecution is along racial lines. Religion is incidental. The Irish are not Catholic Englishmen; they are Irish.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pondero:

No, of course the UK is not a political party

Equivocation. Your original reference (and my answer to it) was not about political parties.

Pondero:

but it is in control

That England has power there is no doubt. That they have been in control is debatable.

Pondero:

and Northern Ireland is legally part of the UK.

If they are legally part of England, then what’s the big fuss about England withdrawing their troops and what’s the big fuss about having a referendum?

Pondero:

The difference is this between other parts of the former British Empire and Northern Ireland.

Pondero, the difference is that (some) English are able to delude themselves that the Irish are not a distinct people from the English and therefore cannot wrap their heads around the concept of an independent Ireland. Given the (false) assumption that the Irish are Englishmen with freckles then it then becomes incomprehensible why the Irish would reject the Church of an English Queen.

Pondero:

A majority of the people in Northern Ireland wish to remain with the UK.

Which begs the question of racial persecution.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ani Ibi:

Northern Ireland came about in the first place because of an occupation by England of Ireland. Ireland was invaded. Now you are saying that the invaders and their progeny have a legitimate say in the destiny of the land they invaded.

Actually, I would say they DO have a legitimate say in the destiny of Ireland. What they do NOT have is an exclusive say. All of Ireland should vote.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

Actually, I would say they DO have a legitimate say in the destiny of Ireland. What they do NOT have is an exclusive say. All of Ireland should vote.

Point taken. This is the ‘realist’ in you speaking. I scored ‘isolationist.’ Can’t figure that one out for the life of me. I think that neocon was psy-ops plot.

Ah! I changed my mind. Ideally I think all of Ireland should vote. Realistically I will be content if Derry, Tyrone, and Fermanagh secede from the north and join the south; and a referendum is held in the north county by county. I don’t think England has a say.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ani Ibi:

Point taken. This is the ‘realist’ in you speaking. I scored ‘isolationist.’ Can’t figure that one out for the life of me. I think that neocon was psy-ops plot.

Ah! I changed my mind. Ideally I think all of Ireland should vote. Realistically I will be content if Derry, Tyrone, and Fermanagh secede from the north and join the south; and a referendum is held in the north county by county. I don’t think England has a say.

If the city of Derry and the counties of Fermanagh and Tyrone secede, there will be precious little left of “Northern Ireland.”

I can recall when there was a real possibility Quebec would secede from Canada, Canadian newspapers were saying, “The rest of us will have to join the US.”

The rump of Northern Ireland will be in a similar situation.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

If the city of Derry and the counties of Fermanagh and Tyrone secede, there will be precious little left of “Northern Ireland.”

I can recall when there was a real possibility Quebec would secede from Canada, Canadian newspapers were saying, “The rest of us will have to join the US.”

The rump of Northern Ireland will be in a similar situation.

What gave impetus to Canadian separateness from America was Catholic Quebec. Quebec isn’t Catholic anymore.

As for what remains of Northern Ireland, they can have their own parliament or they can be a province of Ireland with distinct status (like Quebec in Canada), religious and language rights. Now if Dallaire starts off on the Disarmament Commission and is therefore recognized for his accomplishments and is allowed to influence the situation further, then we might get some sensible proposals on the table. With de Chastelain we’ll get nothing but the same old same old. Worse, we’ll go backwards.

 

[STIOFAN]

Ani Ibi:

You must be over the moon.

The shoe on the other foot?

Not over the moon yet but but being all of 47 years I have noticed lots of changes.
We had the FEA established a few years ago, Fair Employment Agency, but of course the protestants called it the Fenian Employment Agency.
That don’t surprise me, even the change from the RUC to the Northern Ireland Police Service had to be juggled a little, because they were being called NIPS by the Catholics.
So now they’re the police service of northern Ireland, BRILLIANT ! what genius thought that up.

Ok off the cuff here, but a few years ago I heard a woman say, that she knew a lady who’s husband was in the UDR, it was the time of one of the IRA ceasefires.
All the woman could babble out was " oh this peace thing is terrible, my husband has no over-time and wer’e buying our house".
So if you look at it, part of the problem was money, people made a lot of money out of other peoples misery, it’s sick that people would chose war because of money.

So now some of the long serving RUC have done well out of the conflict, and the UDR,who knows how much the RIR will get ?

But I’ve heard quotes of £100,000 for some ex RUC,—BLOOD money in my opininon, so now the protestants have to come down to our way of living (Catholics)

Anyway now the money from England is drying up, and some who lived the high life have to live like the rest of the population.

Don’t get me wrong, Catholics conditions have improved imensly over the years, but we didn’t pull in big salarys like the UDR,RUC,RIR etc:

Then about 12 years ago we had the protestant orange men blocking the roads.
So it was a bad time with people not being able to get to work or even to hospital.
The Catholics took it upon themselves not to shop in those people’s shops, because many of the people blockading the roads were protestant business men.

So what happened was their shops closed down, they appealed to the Catholic Church leaders to get us to go back, but the Church said, “we can’t tell people where to shop”.

Here you have people bockading roads, and the very people that they were stopping were the ones that kept them in buisness.

I have to say on a personal level, there is one shop in my town that I haven’t stood in, in 12 years, some of these wounds take a long time to heal, and the scar still shows.
We had protestants begging Catholics to please come back to our shops, even issues of denial from some buisness men that they had no part in the protests. (sad indeed)

So anyone with an ounce of brains in Northern Ireland can see that we all need eachother, protestants need Catholics thats for sure from what I said up above.

Whether I personally need protestants, well thats debatable, but we do need to get along, and we do for the most part, but it only takes a very small percentage to ruin it all for the rest of us.(although I do have protestant friends)

Sorry if I go on a bit, but I do have a lot to go on about.

 

[STIOFAN]

Pondero:

I don’t think so.The people of Northern Ireland, should be the only ones consulted as they are the only ones involved directly. The fighting, the murders, the hatred, the clashes between various para-military groups are in Northern Ireland, not in Eire.

I don’t agree with you ! England stole our land, thats the long,short, and tall of it. They, Eire were included in the killings, they should be included in the peace.
bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/powersharing/bombs.shtml

 

[burnside]

Years.ago,there.was.a.suggestion.on.a.TV.Discussion
programme.that.catholics,who.wished.to.be.part.of.the.Republic,
be.moved.to.the.Border.Areas.and.protestants.living.there.moved
in.the.opposite.direction.That.Territory.could.then.be.handed.back.to.the.Republic.However,it.was.decided.there.were.too
many.practical.difficulties.Catholics.moving.to.the.Border.Area
had.no.experience.of.farming,the.only.employment.available,and
the.protestants.going.the.other.way.had,little.experience.of
anything.else.

 

[Pondero]

vern humphrey:

If it had been put to a vote of the whole of Ireland, the problem would never have surfaced, and much blood and suffering would be avoided.

Let me point out that while Eire is mostly Catholic, there ARE Protestants living there – when was the last time you heard of Protestants in Eire fighting and blowing people up?

Eire has an enviable record in treating minorities fairly. That experience ought to be put to use.

And suppose a barony in one county votes one way and the rest of the county another?

I think you are splitting hairs Vern. It is alright for me or you or anyone making armchair theoretical decisions about the fate of another nation, like philosophizing , it is a nice pastime. There is no easy solution and I have offered mine, for what it is worth.

The politics of the situation will probably dictate a Northern Ireland vote, not county by county, as the results may be that two will wish to join Eire. That being so the UK government, could hardly refuse if it allowed the vote in the first place. Then, there would be a clamouring for more by the Catholic minority, and perhaps Eire would wake up and say, well, there are only four counties left now and we have just got the best industrial and best farm county to join us, so why don’t we press for more.

The outrage by the Protestant community will be enormous and who knows the result. Even, if eventually, after a period of many years the Catholics assume numerical control of Northern Ireland and get it, by that time the IRA and Ian Paisley will be, I hope, long gone and they join Eire- the remaining Protestants will talk about betrayal by the UK gov. and want to emigrate. Heaven help us they may wish to emigrate, here to Canadahttp://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

 

[Pondero]

STIOFÁN:

I don’t agree with you ! England stole our land, thats the long,short, and tall of it. They, Eire were included in the killings, they should be included in the peace.
bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/powersharing/bombs.shtml]

Aren’t you forgetting something else that happened ,this time it was the doing of the IRA in Eire. Lord Mountbatten was blown up .

But, my original point was that most of the violence took place in Northern Ireland.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

burnside:

Years.ago,there.was.a.suggestion.on.a.TV.Discussion
programme.that.catholics,who.wished.to.be.part.of.the.Republic,
be.moved.to.the.Border.Areas.and.protestants.living.there.moved
in.the.opposite.direction.That.Territory.could.then.be.handed.back.to.the.Republic.However,it.was.decided.there.were.too
many.practical.difficulties.Catholics.moving.to.the.Border.Area
had.no.experience.of.farming,the.only.employment.available,and
the.protestants.going.the.other.way.had,little.experience.of
anything.else.

Yet the English sent in dear old Mountbatten to India to move the Muslims up to a new Pakistan. The Muslims were slaughtered in droves on the roads they marched. I see our friend Pondero has dredged the bombing of Mountbatten up below.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pondero:

STIOFÁN:

I don’t agree with you ! England stole our land, thats the long,short, and tall of it. They, Eire were included in the killings, they should be included in the peace.
bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/powersharing/bombs.shtml

Aren’t you forgetting something else that happened ,this time it was the doing of the IRA in Eire. Lord Mountbatten was blown up .

So?

Pondero:

But, my original point was that most of the violence took place in Northern Ireland.

I also made a point that one cannot reasonably just decide out of the clear blue sky that the War started at the signing of the Treaty. The War has been going on for centuries.

Secondly, one side of that War has been the Irish people who are a people distinct from the people of England. The Irish people include those in the south.

In the recent Iraq election emigrants from Iraq were allowed to vote. I think that is a good idea. Let’s have all the Irish lost to Eire from all over the world vote.

 

[STIOFAN]

Pondero:

STIOFÁN:

I don’t agree with you ! England stole our land, thats the long,short, and tall of it. They, Eire were included in the killings, they should be included in the peace.
bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/powersharing/bombs.shtml

Aren’t you forgetting something else that happened ,this time it was the doing of the IRA in Eire. Lord Mountbatten was blown up .

But, my original point was that most of the violence took place in Northern Ireland.

I’m forgetting nothing, I was asked about security force lists, and loyalists lists. when you ask for IRA lists I’ll provide them.
Please stop turning this discussion into a he says she says, pretty please with sugar on top.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pondero:

I think you are splitting hairs Vern. It is alright for me or you or anyone making armchair theoretical decisions about the fate of another nation, like philosophizing , it is a nice pastime. There is no easy solution and I have offered mine, for what it is worth.

Herein is the lesson, when you draw lines, others may also draw lines. You want the line drawn at the border. But then it becomes obvious that compels large Catholic populations to surrender their votes because they are submerged in a larger Protestant stew.

The stew being arbitrary, the counter can be equally arbitrary.

The Irish Problem is an Irish problem. The Irish people must solve it, and that means all of Ireland must vote.

 

[FightingFat]

You might be interested in this-

Irish bloggers on the IRA

Wherever their sympathies lie, Irish bloggers are cautious about celebrating the IRA calling an end to their armed campaign for a united Ireland.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

FightingFat:

You might be interested in this-

Irish bloggers on the IRA

Wherever their sympathies lie, Irish bloggers are cautious about celebrating the IRA calling an end to their armed campaign for a united Ireland.

Thanks for that link. It’s good. I’m reading Slugger O’Toole’s blog. This one struck me as particularly cool:

"Could somebody please outline the benefits of the Commonwealth to Ireland, apart from the fact that we might have a chance of winning some medals at an international sporting event?
What has it done for Northern Ireland for example? How many Commonwealth-inspired economic delegations have been there looking to invest?

Anyway, we have our own Commonwealth, it’s called the Irish Diaspora and if the Ulster Scots and the rest of Ulster British/Irish, who apparently have 20 former US Presidents in their ranks, come on board who needs it?

It just seems to me like a post-colonial rehab club.

Hi, my name is India and I’m a recovering colony."

Posted by: George at July 29, 2005 05:14 PM

 

[Pondero]

STIOFÁN:

I’m forgetting nothing, I was asked about security force lists, and loyalists lists. when you ask for IRA lists I’ll provide them.
Please stop turning this discussion into a he says she says, pretty please with sugar on top.

Keep your shirt on Stiofan: to reiterate the troubles are mainly in Northern Ireland not Eire. The problem lies there and only they should be involved in its solution. I don’t envy you living there. I worked with a NI Protestant for some years in Toronto, we didn’t get along, but he was glad to get outof NI. Another Catholic man from Cork used to be my boss many years ago, he fired me. So, I don’t have a very good record of getting along with the Irish. Nevertheless, that is probably just pure bad luck.I haven’t met too many.

The British Army has a tough job to do over there, keeping the warring sections from killing each other. The man who married my neice, a former Royal Marine was over there for a while, and it was the toughest assignment he had. He was over here a couple of years ago and stayed at my Etobicoke home.