Ireland asks Israel to allow ship to Gaza

[livnlern]

Yes civilian ships which were boarded by people who were chanting “ Khaibar, Khaibar, oh Jews! The army of muhammad will return!”

FYI “Khaibar is the name of the last Jewish village defeated by muhammad’s army in 628. Many Jews were killed in that battle, which marked the end of Jewish presence in Arabia. There are muslims who see that as a precursor for future wars against Jews. At gatherings and rallies of extremists, this chant is often heard as a threat to Jews to expect to be defeated and killed again by muslims.”

These people were girding up for battle and matryrdom, under the blanket of “humanitarian” missions.

They were chanting about a village they defeated in 628?!!
No wonder there hasn’t been any peace between these people…

 

[donsnow]

Well, I guess if you call not getting what you want a concession then perhaps.

Artilce 49 - 4th Geneva Convention - it is illegal for any occupying force to transfer its population to occupied territories. Simple, short and sweet. Fact. International Law. No disputing it and no excemptions.

And yet the Palestinians were willing to concede 50% of the settlements in the West Bank.

Again under international law it’s illegal to acquire territory by virtue of war.

And yet the Palestinians were willing to make concessions on the borders issues regarding Gaza and the West Bank.

The Permanent Court of International Justice has ruled Jerusalem as occupied Palestinian land. Israel has no legal claim on Jerusalem whatsoever.

And yet the Palestinians were willing to agree to it being divided roughly in half - a Jewish and Arab territory.

And once more under international law, every single refugee has the right to return to their homeland - Israel,

And again, Palestinians have never demanded the return of 6 million refugees. Figures vary from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands but not even one millon of the six million with with full legal entitlement of return.

Giving up what you ‘‘want’’ is not a concession.

The only measure is what in law are you entitled to.

And the Palestinians were willing to give up hugh chunks of what they were lawfully entitled to for peace.

Unless Israel is a signatory to the Fourth Geneva Convention, it’s not obliged to go by it. I consider International Law as not, repeat not, authoritative over different nations’ sovereignty.

I’m really not into One World Order before the return of Jesus Christ in glory. Oh, it’s going to happen. But, only because it’s prophesied, not because it’s right.

The Permanent Court of International Justice gets the same treatment as the Fourth Geneva Convention and International law. Only signatory nations go by it and it has no authority over the laws of sovereign nations.
Israel has every rightful claim to Jerusalem.

Return of six million Jewish refugees? You’re saying there’s six million Palestinian refugees outside of Gaza and the West Bank? Anybody can make up a number. I told you, I don’t believe terrrorists claims. They’re liars. They’re also real good at making false claims.

The Palestinians undo all the alleged concessions they allegedly make, by launching rockets into Israel.

I’m interested in what the Israelis are lawfully entitled to. They don’t make false claims.

 

[donsnow]

Well you obviously heard it wrong. After declaring independence Israel placed its Arab population under military rule with practically no rights at all until 1966.

No they didn’t. The British mandate surveyed Palestine in 1946 and found 7% of the land was owned by Jews. They got the vast majority of the land through forcing out the indigneous population, because creating a Jewish state in a land with an overwhelming Arab population is obviously problematic.

You really ought to at least cite some evidence before making such totally outlandish claims. Besides this is the old Joan Peters theory and has long been discredited as a total fraud.

Israel has never made any real concessions, at most it has only agreed to abide by laws it had no right to break in the first place, and only when it was forced into doing so. And on Hamas breaking ceasefires, you mean how when Israel and Hamas agreed a ceasefire in June 2008 if Israel would lift the siege Hamas would stop firing rockets at Israel? And Hamas (according to the Israelis) was ‘careful to maintain the ceasefire’ despite the fact that Israel totally reneged on its part of the agreement and refused to lift the siege, and that it was Israel which then broke the ceasefire on November 4th while the rest of the world was busy with the American election results, provoking Hamas to fire rockets ‘in retaliation’ (the Israelis’ words).

You really shouldn’t be accusing people of spreading propaganda, that post was appalling.

It’s very simple. I’m pro Israel and you’re pro Palestinian. Hamas teaches everybody to hate Jews.

That hatred disqualifies them from any further credibility or consideration.

I get my choice of propaganda to believe and you get your choice of propaganda (Yes, humanitarian organizations and International law proponents do have their own brand of propaganda).

FYI, I was raised during the ideological Cold War. And, Islam has allowed some of its members to declare war on the world and that war includes ideological propaganda.

FYI, the Internationalists are making up laws to replace national sovereignty of every nation on earth and they definitely have propaganda about doing that evil thing.

I’m not as stupid as you must think I am, to wave such propaganda at me as you have in the above post, in rebuttal of my appalling post.

 

[donsnow]

Are you seriously saying that jews have purchased all the land they occupy in Israel

Are you seriously saying jews had bought all the land of Israel before it was brought into existence in 1948??

If you are, well, ok.

I wont take up any more of your time.

I’ll just leave you with this - research for yourself what happened to the land deeds of the displaced palestinians. And what’s happening to the land deeds now of those living in occupied territories.

Looks like I have successfully defended my position from you.

It’s not up to me to research information substantiating your position. I’m not that stupid.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Looks like I have successfully defended my position from you.

No Don, no, you havent.

The position you’re defending is that the jews ‘‘bought’’ the land of Israel.

Not even the JNF backs your claim

sigh

I’m prepared to continue talking with you, but only if we can have an intelligent conversation.

Claiming that the jews ‘‘own’’ Israel on the basis they have ‘‘bought’’ it, I’m afraid, doesnt qualify for an intelligent debate or discussion.
.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

It’s not up to me to research information substantiating your position. I’m not that stupid.

I’ve done my research. I was suggesting you might like to look up what is verified as having happened to the land deeds of the people dispersed by Israel.

For yourself.

If I supply the referrences, you migth accuse me of being biased. So you could look them up for yourself. Thatt’s all I was suggesting.

You wouldnt be doing my research for me, as Ive done it already, and I also dont want you to share it with me, as I know whats there, I knwow hat you’ll find out, so no, you wouldnt be doing my research for me.

But you might learn something that you wont be comfortable with.

And I suspect your retort has that as it’s basis.

As to a more general point, why wouldnt you want to research my references on my standpoint? Surely anyone with a genuine scholarly or open interest rather than a biased agenda, would want to read up all and every piece of research to come to a more balanced point of view.

I find it interesting some people dont want to look at information that conflicts with their world view.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

You’re saying there’s six million Palestinian refugees outside of Gaza and the West Bank? Anybody can make up a number. I told you, I don’t believe terrrorists claims. They’re liars. They’re also real good at making false claims.

No, not me, UNRWA.

Are they liars too?

These are the facts don, not according to terrorists, but UNWRA.

I’m interested in what the Israelis are lawfully entitled to. They don’t make false claims.

Really?

Well then you’ll know that Israel is not entitled to settle the occupied territories, not entitled to acquire land by war, and not entitled to Jerusalem, which is occupied territory also.

That’s the law, don, that’s the law.

Interestingly, Israel says there are no injustices being committed against the Palestinians.

The Vatican says there are.

So which of them are lying?

For someone who is a catholic and pro-Israeli, does this cause a conflict?

 

[Muzhik]

Well, I guess if you call not getting what you want a concession then perhaps.

Artilce 49 - 4th Geneva Convention - it is illegal for any occupying force to transfer its population to occupied territories. Simple, short and sweet. Fact. International Law. No disputing it and no excemptions.

And yet the Palestinians were willing to concede 50% of the settlements in the West Bank.

Again under international law it’s illegal to acquire territory by virtue of war.

And yet the Palestinians were willing to make concessions on the borders issues regarding Gaza and the West Bank.

The Permanent Court of International Justice has ruled Jerusalem as occupied Palestinian land. Israel has no legal claim on Jerusalem whatsoever.

And yet the Palestinians were willing to agree to it being divided roughly in half - a Jewish and Arab territory.

And once more under international law, every single refugee has the right to return to their homeland - Israel,

And again, Palestinians have never demanded the return of 6 million refugees. Figures vary from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands but not even one millon of the six million with with full legal entitlement of return.

And the Palestinians were willing to give up hugh chunks of what they were lawfully entitled to for peace.

Unless Israel is a signatory to the Fourth Geneva Convention, it’s not obliged to go by it. I consider International Law as not, repeat not, authoritative over different nations’ sovereignty.

I’m really not into One World Order before the return of Jesus Christ in glory. Oh, it’s going to happen. But, only because it’s prophesied, not because it’s right.

The Permanent Court of International Justice gets the same treatment as the Fourth Geneva Convention and International law. Only signatory nations go by it and it has no authority over the laws of sovereign nations.
Israel has every rightful claim to Jerusalem.

Return of six million Jewish refugees? You’re saying there’s six million Palestinian refugees outside of Gaza and the West Bank? Anybody can make up a number. I told you, I don’t believe terrrorists claims. They’re liars. They’re also real good at making false claims.

The Palestinians undo all the alleged concessions they allegedly make, by launching rockets into Israel.

I’m interested in what the Israelis are lawfully entitled to. They don’t make false claims.

Guy,

1. I challenge you to provide evidence of a single Palestinian concession that they have much less actually implemented.
2. If you’re going to use the 4th Geneva Convention, great. Article 49 is clear. It is also irrelevant. Gaza, by international law, was not and never was occupied territory. Gaza was Egyptian territory. Egypt lost that territory when it launched a war of aggression against Israel in 1972 (The Yom Kippur War). As a point of interest, Israel also won the Sinai Peninsula in that war. They returned it to Egypt several years later as part of a peace treaty with Egypt, which Egypt is still abiding by.

Since Israel won Gaza fair and square by defeating an aggressive enemy, Gaza does not count as “occupied territory.” Therefore, encouraging Israeli settlers to move to Gaza does not violate Article 49. A nation that DID violate Article 49 was Jordan. After the War of Independence, Jordan occupied Judea and Samaria, renaming the area “West Bank”. Although the area had been set aside by the UN to form the Arab state, Jordan claimed it and proceeded to move Jordanians into the area. However, no one in the UN or any international body made any complaints against Jordan for this illegal occupation of land the UN had set aside for the Arabs.

Let’s also deal with Article 28 of the 4th Geneva Convention. This article has to do with the use of “human shields.” Article 28 forbids the construction or installation of military facilities (such as bomb or gun factories) in civilian areas, or to use hospitals for command and control facilities. This article was frequently violated by the Palestinians. During the war in Gaza, the Palestinian control bunker was in the basement of Gaza City’s Shifa Hospital.

1. Could you please provide citations for your statements regarding Palestinian concessions? I am not aware of any concessions offered or accepted by the Palestinians.
2. As far as Jerusalem is concerned, see my earlier comment re: territory captured while defending against an aggressor. Israel captured the eastern part of Jerusalem while defending itself against a war of aggression started by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. Besides, the Palestinians were only willing to have it divided after it had been taken by Israel. Before that, it was Jordanian territory, so the Palestinians had no say in the matter.
3. While you talk about the “right of return” for the Palestinians, no one seems to care about the “right of return” for any of the Jews who were forced from their homes by virtually all of the Islamic countries, and forced to come to Israel. None of them were ever paid for the loss of their property, yet no one seems to care about that. The “6 million” figure comes from the UN. Of all the displaced people in the world, only the Palestinians have a separate UN group specifically for them – the UNRWA. By UNRWA definition, someone had to have lived in British Mandated Palestine for only 2 years to count as a refugee; and unlike any other displaced persons in the world, the definition of a Palestinian refugee is not only people who were displaced during the War of Independence or the Six-Day War, BUT ALL THEIR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN!

Again, please provide citations for your claim that the Palestinians were willing to give up ANYTHING.

Don, Israel is a full signatory to the Geneva Conventions. All of them.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

@Muzhik

Since you addressed me directly;

I’m currently taking care of some people here.

Where they go, I go.

I’ll be back soon to respond to you.

 

[scipio337]

Guy,

1. I challenge you to provide evidence of a single Palestinian concession that they have much less actually implemented.
2. If you’re going to use the 4th Geneva Convention, great. Article 49 is clear. It is also irrelevant. Gaza, by international law, was not and never was occupied territory. Gaza was Egyptian territory. Egypt lost that territory when it launched a war of aggression against Israel in 1972 (The Yom Kippur War). As a point of interest, Israel also won the Sinai Peninsula in that war. They returned it to Egypt several years later as part of a peace treaty with Egypt, which Egypt is still abiding by.

Since Israel won Gaza fair and square by defeating an aggressive enemy, Gaza does not count as “occupied territory.” Therefore, encouraging Israeli settlers to move to Gaza does not violate Article 49. A nation that DID violate Article 49 was Jordan. After the War of Independence, Jordan occupied Judea and Samaria, renaming the area “West Bank”. Although the area had been set aside by the UN to form the Arab state, Jordan claimed it and proceeded to move Jordanians into the area. However, no one in the UN or any international body made any complaints against Jordan for this illegal occupation of land the UN had set aside for the Arabs.

Let’s also deal with Article 28 of the 4th Geneva Convention. This article has to do with the use of “human shields.” Article 28 forbids the construction or installation of military facilities (such as bomb or gun factories) in civilian areas, or to use hospitals for command and control facilities. This article was frequently violated by the Palestinians. During the war in Gaza, the Palestinian control bunker was in the basement of Gaza City’s Shifa Hospital.

1. Could you please provide citations for your statements regarding Palestinian concessions? I am not aware of any concessions offered or accepted by the Palestinians.
2. As far as Jerusalem is concerned, see my earlier comment re: territory captured while defending against an aggressor. Israel captured the eastern part of Jerusalem while defending itself against a war of aggression started by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. Besides, the Palestinians were only willing to have it divided after it had been taken by Israel. Before that, it was Jordanian territory, so the Palestinians had no say in the matter.
3. While you talk about the “right of return” for the Palestinians, no one seems to care about the “right of return” for any of the Jews who were forced from their homes by virtually all of the Islamic countries, and forced to come to Israel. None of them were ever paid for the loss of their property, yet no one seems to care about that. The “6 million” figure comes from the UN. Of all the displaced people in the world, only the Palestinians have a separate UN group specifically for them – the UNRWA. By UNRWA definition, someone had to have lived in British Mandated Palestine for only 2 years to count as a refugee; and unlike any other displaced persons in the world, the definition of a Palestinian refugee is not only people who were displaced during the War of Independence or the Six-Day War, BUT ALL THEIR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN!

Again, please provide citations for your claim that the Palestinians were willing to give up ANYTHING.

Don, Israel is a full signatory to the Geneva Conventions. All of them.

An interesting precedent for the Israel and Palestine issues is the fall of the British Raj and formation of modern Pakistan, India, and East Pakistan (Bangladesh), which saw over 10x the amount of people displaced, and 100x more civillian deaths.

More than 5 million Hindus and Sikhs moved from present-day Pakistan into present-day India, and more than 6 million Muslims moved in the other direction. A large number of people (more than a million by some estimates) died in the accompanying violence, yet there are no Hindus, Sikhs, or Muslims, or their descendants, living in UNWRA camps.

 

[donsnow]

No Don, no, you havent.

The position you’re defending is that the jews ‘‘bought’’ the land of Israel.

Not even the JNF backs your claim

sigh

I’m prepared to continue talking with you, but only if we can have an intelligent conversation.

Claiming that the jews ‘‘own’’ Israel on the basis they have ‘‘bought’’ it, I’m afraid, doesnt qualify for an intelligent debate or discussion.
.

If all you can do is ‘putdowns’, this conversation is over.

The Jews are fighting for the survival of the State of Israel. That’s right next to Genocide. The only thing that keeps it from being genocide, is all the other Jews outside of Israel.
Christian Israeli’s are fighting for the survival of the State of Israel.

I’m sorry, but the Israeli’s have no intention of pushing the Palestinian Authority into the sea, so the Palestinians are not, repeat not, the underdogs here. The state of Israel is the underdog.

I’m for Israel, whether conqueror or underdog. I seriously doubt if there’s anything you can offer which will change my position. You should save your time, strength and energy to communicate with somebody you can persuade, instead of parroting anti-Israeli propaganda to me.

 

[donsnow]

I’ve done my research. I was suggesting you might like to look up what is verified as having happened to the land deeds of the people dispersed by Israel.

For yourself.

If I supply the referrences, you migth accuse me of being biased. So you could look them up for yourself. Thatt’s all I was suggesting.

You wouldnt be doing my research for me, as Ive done it already, and I also dont want you to share it with me, as I know whats there, I knwow hat you’ll find out, so no, you wouldnt be doing my research for me.

But you might learn something that you wont be comfortable with.

And I suspect your retort has that as it’s basis.

As to a more general point, why wouldnt you want to research my references on my standpoint? Surely anyone with a genuine scholarly or open interest rather than a biased agenda, would want to read up all and every piece of research to come to a more balanced point of view.

I find it interesting some people dont want to look at information that conflicts with their world view.

I’ve learned in my 66 years to avoid being unintentionally played for a sucker by well meaning internationalists. That’s why I won’t look at what you claim substantiates your position.

 

[donsnow]

No, not me, UNRWA.

Are they liars too?

These are the facts don, not according to terrorists, but UNWRA.

Really?

Well then you’ll know that Israel is not entitled to settle the occupied territories, not entitled to acquire land by war, and not entitled to Jerusalem, which is occupied territory also.

That’s the law, don, that’s the law.

Interestingly, Israel says there are no injustices being committed against the Palestinians.

The Vatican says there are.

So which of them are lying?

For someone who is a catholic and pro-Israeli, does this cause a conflict?

Hmmm, anything with the initials “UN” in the acronym is open to suspicion.

Anti-Jewish hate laws forbid Israel these things.

I believe both the Israelis and the Vatican. Because each authority has different definitions of injustice.

Hmmmm…it’s much less paradoxical to be Catholic and Pro-Israel than to be Catholic and pro abortion, imho.

 

[donsnow]

Don, Israel is a full signatory to the Geneva Conventions. All of them.

Muzhik,

Oh, dear. Thank you for that information. Still looks like they haven’t broken the convention.

 

[Muzhik]

Hmmmm…it’s much less paradoxical to be Catholic and Pro-Israel than to be Catholic and pro abortion, imho.

I’m with you on that one. My sympathies lie totally with the Christian Palestinians. No matter which way they turn, someone’s going to try to beat them up.

And I also feel for His Holiness. It’s a lot easier to be firmly on one side of an issue when you are the “Church of Holiness in Jesus Christ” down on the corner with a couple of hundred parishioners than to have to deal with billions of believers from different nationalities. If you want a definition of “strained”, read up on the Papal Conclave of 1914. WW1 had been going on for a month, and a number of the cardinal electors were from nations at war with each other.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

I’ve learned in my 66 years to avoid being unintentionally played for a sucker by well meaning internationalists. That’s why I won’t look at what you claim substantiates your position.

Well, at least you know now that the jews haven’t ‘‘bought’’ Israel.

So I guess you learned something from this well intentioned internationalist.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Sorry, but the “I’ve got enough on my plate” excuse rings a little hollow, given the amount of criticism given lately for those saying “NO”, but not offering alternative solutions.

You have me there. Call it laziness, but the sort of solution you formulated indicates that you put some effort into it, more effort than I’m willing to give. Not putting you down for your proposal, but I’d have to do more research than I care to to come up with something this side of laughable.

On a side note, as a fellow flyover slob, I live minutes from SIUE, and spent last weekend canoeing the beautiful Buffalo River in AR.

Hah! Small world. Got my MBA from SIUE, my JD from UofArk.

The Buffalo brings you out-of-staters down here every time. Arkansas may be poor, but it’s not called the natural state for nothing. The state does a pretty good job, too, of managing its money. No major state job layoffs, no IOUs to state employees, no deficits, the state was even hiring the last I heard.

And an anomaly with its two Democratic Senators and all Dem Representatives, but one. Not quite the Southern standard.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Hmmm, anything with the initials “UN” in the acronym is open to suspicion.

Anti-Jewish hate laws forbid Israel these things.

So I guess it was anti-Muslim hate laws that forbid Iraq from keeping Kuwait when it was invaded and annexed by Saddam???

Nope - it’s the law - and the law says you cannot aquire and keep land by war and you cannot settle that land.

So what Israel is doing with it’s settlements and Jerusalem is illegal.

It’s not anti-Jewish hate laws, it’s the law. Plain and simple.

 

[Darryl1958]

So I guess it was anti-Muslim hate laws that forbid Iraq from keeping Kuwait when it was invaded and annexed by Saddam???

Nope - it’s the law - and the law says you cannot aquire and keep land by war and you cannot settle that land.

So what Israel is doing with it’s settlements and Jerusalem is illegal.

It’s not anti-Jewish hate laws, it’s the law. Plain and simple.

Then perhaps the sons and grandsons and gretgrandsons of expulsed Germans ought to be sending suicide missions into Silesia, to gain back what was taken from them illegally in WWII.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Let’s also deal with Article 28 of the 4th Geneva Convention. This article has to do with the use of “human shields.” Article 28 forbids the construction or installation of military facilities (such as bomb or gun factories) in civilian areas, or to use hospitals for command and control facilities. This article was frequently violated by the Palestinians. During the war in Gaza, the Palestinian control bunker was in the basement of Gaza City’s Shifa Hospital.

The Geneva Conventions do prohibit the use of civilians as human shields, using civilian structures for military operations, and interning civilians in a warzone. The IDF forces Palestinian civilians, including children, at gunpoint to serve as human shields. The IDF has been known to hijack ambulances for the purpose of ambushing Palestinians and has also been known to attack International Red Cross convoys. The IDF also uses civilian structures as bases of operation. I don’t see anyone here condemning these things.