Ireland repeals abortion ban!

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Yes, I’ve witnessed firsthand the futility of the debate between the two sides. Mostly, I think both sides are done with debate, being thoroughly convinced of the other side’s worst intentions. So that now all that’s left is to politically attack each other using our republic as the game board.
 
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That would be very flawed logic. By that logic, I don’t remember anything until I was five years old. If you had snuffed me out earlier, I wouldn’t have known or cared.

The reality is that just as there is a continuum of me going forward, there is a continuum of me from my past. The last time I wasn’t me was before I was conceived. I’ve been me ever since.

QwertyGirl: I don’t care about the “debate” and how it’s going. Debate will never bear fruit. I care about the mothers who are sold a false bill of goods, that if they abort their child they will be happier and be able to pursue their lifestyle choices better, that they will not feel badly after taking a life, that they will not have physical and mental health consequences, and that they and their boyfriend/husband will not suffer spiritual consequences including the possibility of hell; and for the babies.
 
That would be very flawed logic. By that logic, I don’t remember anything until I was five years old. If you had snuffed me out earlier, I wouldn’t have known or cared.

The reality is that just as there is a continuum of me going forward, there is a continuum of me from my past. The last time I wasn’t me was before I was conceived. I’ve been me ever since.
There is a continuum, nonetheless segmented by discrete phases of development. At some point, you had a heartbeat and brainwaves. At some point, you were born. Took a breath. Started walking, talking. Developed the ability for abstact thinking.

Do you understand that there is a stark philosophical difference between your position and the secular modern position?

With you, it’s all one unbroken whole, like soul and body, like the hypostatic union of Christ. An unseamed garment.

With the pro-choice modern, it’s simply this: a thing is what it is, at that point in time. Nothing more, nothing less. Its relative potential to become something more, notwithstanding.

So, if you argue that a zygote is human, scientifically, they will agree. If you argue that that particular form or phase of humanity is equal to or the same as an adult, they will immediately reject that, because that is a philosophical view.

Even if you say, “You were a zygote at some point, too. Given enough time, and the right conditions, so the zygote will also become an adult.”

The modern will say, “Potential is not fate, and nature, itself, discards most zygotes and even many embryos are miscarried. An adult is an adult, a child, a child. Neither is a zygote now.”

You see the zygote fully invested with all the qualities and fundamentals of humanity. The pro-choice person sees it as in the first stage of humanity - not yet fully vested.
 
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With you, it’s all one unbroken whole, like soul and body, like the hypostatic union of Christ. An unseamed garment.

With the pro-choice modern, it’s simply this: a thing is what it is, at that point in time. Nothing more, nothing less. Its relative potential to become something more, notwithstanding.
@QContinuum You have made some excellent points in helping me to understand the pro-choice argument more clearly. I understood their position, but you’ve really helped me see their philosphy, beyond just “the right to choose.” And I love your analogy above (I bolded it) about how we view human life, like the unseamed garment. That was beautiful. 👏
ETA: Just for clarification, I am staunchly pro-life…I just appreciate being able to accurately articulate the opposing side’s viewpoint.
 
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QContinuum, I see what you’re saying. So they can’t see beyond their fingertip. If they look at their fingertip, it exists in isolation to a finger, a hand. Well, all I can say is that is a short-sighted way to live.
 
Essentially, it’s materialism at it’s most basic - a logical outcome of a secularist worldview. I often think of relativistic approaches as being synonymous with this worldview, and they are to an extent, but there is a fearsome absolutism about material reality that has related consequences.

The best exponent of a positive and honest atheistic worldview I have ever come across, in terms of winsomeness, was Terry Pratchett. He talks in one of his books about being able to grind down the dust of the universe into atoms, and points out that you would not find a shred of ‘justice’ or ‘goodness’ and all our noble virtues there. And so humans create stories, small lies to enable them to believe the big lies, like truth and justice and love etc.

I admire this honesty. Because the reality is that once you divorce the material world from metaphysical truth, then you have no anchor at all to hold you to the thought that what grows inside a pregnant human female is worth anything at all. But of course you also have no particular anchor to the idea that the adult human herself is worth anything, and the conscience will fight very hard against dismissing what it can actually see. It’s much easier to dehumanise and dismiss the child in the situation because they are unseen - both in terms of being covered by the body of the mother, and, when we do get to see pictures of early formation, they look strange to us so we can more easily discount them.
 
It’s indeed why I was unsatisfied with an agnostic viewpoint, and started my way back to faith.
 
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Yes, this is the viewpoint anchoring everything for the secular modern person.

I found it very bleak.

This is also why I can’t really engage in a debate with an ardent pro-choice person without first having them acknowledge their philosophical views on what is a person, what is humanity, and so forth.
 
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Yep pretty much so. The goverment and media hate the church aswell so really go out of their way to “promote” anything negative they can find about the church.

But in saying that there are still faithful Catholics in this country. ☺️
 
An Irish Bishop said on Monday “those that voted yes must go to confession”. I was wanting to post a link to an article regarding it but could not find one that wasn’t from an anti-Catholic source. People where attacking the church over this, he is right though many souls are in danger if not confessed.
 
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Pro-Choice people are pro-choice, overwhelmingly, because they don’t believe a human person is created at the same point in time (i.e. conception) that Pro-Lifers do.
Anybody looking at a picture of a baby in utero (embryo , foetus ) knows that they are looking at the picture of a small human person
 
An Irish Bishop said on Monday “those that voted yes must go to confession”. I was wanting to post a link to an article regarding it but could not find one that wasn’t from an anti-Catholic source. People where attacking the church over this, he is right though many souls are in danger if not confessed.
Indeed. We should pray for them, because each and every one of them are now material cooperators with God knows how many murders…
 
I am glad that this Irish bishop had the courage to say that. Those who voted yes most definitely must go to Confession. Voting yes would have been a mortal sin.
 
Yes I was glad too, so so many of them scoffed and mocked the comment attacking the church and the sacrament, many so oblivious to what could happen if not confessed. Ireland has really lost it’s way.
 
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Natural Law is the basis for my country’s Declaration of Independence and judicial system, so I don’t think its a non-starter.

And “child” doesn’t mean born human. The definition of child is “a young human being below the age of puberty”. A human embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, preschooler ALL fit this definition. I can play at semantics with secularists.
 
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And “child” doesn’t mean born human. The definition of child is “a young human being below the age of puberty”. A human embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, preschooler ALL fit this definition. I can play at semantics with secularists.
Yes, you can play at semantics. But if each side can’t agree on definitions, I don’t see how you can do anything but talk past each other.
 
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