Irish abuse report is 'shocking'

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Here is the reference for the 30,000 figure. It apparently comes straight from the Commission’s report that study the situation for 9 years.

vox.gi/Local/Irish_Catholic_Church_Child_Abuse_Scandal-30052009.html

"Ordered by the Government and headed by Mr Justice Sean Ryan, the reprt indicated that - although the situation has today radically changed - over a forty-year period some 30,000 children, whose only crimes were to have been poor or parentless, were systematically abused by churchmen. "

The 50,000 figure I used came from I think Kevin Annet’s interviews on RadioLiberty.com. I think that was the figure he gave as the best he could do in the way of an estimate. The abuse in Canada went on for far longer than 40 years and involved far more children. The audio tapes of those interviews are obtainable from RadioLiberty.com.

I think the reason the media did not cover this monumental attrocity is that the government of Canada as well as Canada’s main protestant denomination were also guilty. The media prefers to indict Roman Catholicism as the sole culprit and this situation required that blame rest on the three institutions.

In Canada, the children were simply seized from their parents and the land owned by the parents was also seized by the Canadian government.

If you watch the video and see the testimony of the people, I do not think you would think the matter is not clear. It happened and it is so evil and so wrong.
 
mrs_miggins said:
Although sexual abuse is obviously, in any form at all, completely abhorrent and inexcusable I would like to make a little point here.

These claims, as I have heard them today on UK news, date back to the 1920’s. I don’t know what it was like in the US but here up until, I believe, the 1970’s corporal punishment was the done thing in schools. Children were caned, hit with a leather strap, had blackboard chalk and sometimes even the erasers (wooden ones!) thrown at them. Parents routinely disciplined their own with slippers and belts and it was a completely acceptable way of dealing with a errant child.

The claims I have heard today are unacceptable by today’s standards, and quite rightly so, but to make out that the Catholic Church was the ONLY authority to be doing this is disingenuous. (And I realise ‘2 wrongs don’t make a right’ but the point is that that was the way that society at that time expected you to discipline your child.)

Our news reports here have lead almost all day with this - although important it is not the only important thing going on. And I’d bet that many Church of England orphanages had the same problem, only its not as ‘sexy’ (for want of a better word) to report those - say the words ‘Catholic Church’ and ‘abuse’ together and watch your ratings soar.
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So why the excuses ? :mad:​

The CC makes claims that schools do not - schools do not claim to be holy, infallible, founded by Christ. The CC makes all these claims, & others. So it cannot be compared with schools, scout associations, political parties, families, or even with other Churches - it has to be tried by far higher standards than all these; its own dogma requires this. So its crimes are correspondingly worse. Worse yet - if possible !!! - is the fact that Catholics are so far from being sorry what has happened, that they point at other Churches. This tactic is disgusting beyond belief, as well as irrational (how can the faults of others make it less guilty of its own crimes ?) - for it shows an utter failure to repent of these foul things, & zeal in trying to pull others down into into the same cesspit as the CC inhabits. That shows the true character of the CC as nothing else could - its worst enemies couldn’t ask for a more damning self-condemnation of it.

It’s a danger to society: & the sooner legislators & society at large appreciate this, the better.
 
Archie said:
Here is the reference for the 30,000 figure. It apparently comes straight from the Commission’s report that study the situation for 9 years.

vox.gi/Local/Irish_Catholic_Church_Child_Abuse_Scandal-30052009.html
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It apparently doesn’t…

You are misreading this information.

It says that 30,000 children were sent to schools where abuse took place. It does not say that 30,000 children were abused. The article also states that abuse took place in 216 other institutions, but fails to mention the number of incidents in those institutions or what exactly took place in them.

On top of that, the numbers don’t all add up and there is not a lot of specifics. Numbers are being thrown around along with insinuation of sexual abuse, but no real attempt at facts. All in all, this is not that good of an article.
The Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse was established by the Irish Government in May 2000 after a television series revealed cases of abuse in Catholic children’s institutions across the country, and more than 30,000 children considered to be thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families - a category including those with unmarried mothers - were sent to schools where the abuse took place.
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Abuses also took place at 216 other church-run institutions for children - orphanages, hostels, non-residential schools and schools for the disabled - according to the report, which ran to 2,500 pages and cost €10 million. Statements were taken from 2,500 people who claimed to have suffered abuse, a few of the cases dating from World War I.
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Since the lid was first lifted off the can of worms in 2002, when (in a compensation deal struck with the Government) 18 religious congregations agreed to pay £127 million - most of it in the form of buildings and land - in return for indemnity against further claims against them, the Irish Government panel has paid 12,000 abuse survivors an average of €65,000 each. About 2,000 claims are pending, The Times reports.
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In terms of the 2002 compensation deal, the Government agreed to meet the remaining costs, which have since spiralled to about £1.1 billion, provoking public outrage, not only about the extent of the abuses revealed by the Ryan report but also the extent of the burden which compensation is placing on the Irish taxpayer. This week the cauldron of resentment boiled over, leading to a clash between the leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Brady, with the religious orders involved in child abuse, as well as a call to them by the Irish premier, or Taoiseach, Brian Cowen on Tuesday night to provide a substantial additional contribution for the victims.
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Unfortunately, what this article does accomplish is a focus mainly on sexual abuses, which the actual report (in the OP) contradicts.

I’m against abuse, and will do everything I can do to rectify problems. Unfortunately, I don’t feel your sources are helpful to solving the problem.
 
"The CC makes claims that schools do not - schools do not claim to be holy, infallible, founded by Christ. The CC makes all these claims, & others. So it cannot be compared with schools, scout associations, political parties, families, or even with other Churches - it has to be tried by far higher standards than all these; its own dogma requires this. So its crimes are correspondingly worse. Worse yet - if possible !!! "

Point well made.

The “crimes” go far beyond corporeal punishment and caning and such. Far far beyond. In Canada, children were beaten to death and starved and thrown out of upper windows to name some of the things I did listen before I had to stop listening and reading. Then there is the sexual abuse. Then there is something quaintly called “humiliation” which sounds simply like chiding and derision and harrassment to me.

In Canada, the children were not from broken homes for the most part nor were they “errant” in any way. They were simply children of a vulnerable defenseless people.

Also, nobody is saying it is ONLY the “Catholic Church” that is guilty of these kinds of crimes. That is a straw man argument.

"And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me. " Matthew 25:40
 
"more than 30,000 children considered to be thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families - a category including those with unmarried mothers - were sent to schools where the abuse took place."

I stand corrected, this indeed does not say that 30,000 children were abused. However, when I see how children were chosen for these “schools” and which children were singled out and how they were most likely apprehended from the parents without due legal process and probably in many cases without the parent’s consent, the “taking” itself of the child constitutes abuse in my book, regardless of what may have or may not have taken place subsequently at the schools.

"Unfortunately, what this article does accomplish is a focus mainly on sexual abuses, which the actual report (in the OP) contradicts.

I’m against abuse, and will do everything I can do to rectify problems. Unfortunately, I don’t feel your sources are helpful to solving the problem. "

The particlular article I quoted was not an excellent source. I briefly researched the matter at about midnight and did not try to find the actual Commission report.

The fact is no one knows the whole truth of how many were abused and what forms of abuse were perpetrated. I find it odd that it took nine years for the Commission to put out their final report.

I suspect that there was a considerable amount of “political negotiations” and pressures brought to bear regarding what that report contained and did not contain as well as when it was released. Then, of course, you have the mainstream media spin for their purposes. Then you have hundreds of Internet articles varying widely in journalistic merit.

As for sexual abuse or lack of it, none of us know the truth of that matter and probably never will. If the report, which I have not read, claims there was no evidence of sexual abuse, I would immediately question the veracity of the report.

"I don’t feel your sources are helpful to solving the problem. "

What “problem” are you saying needs to be solved?

Getting at as much unvarnished truth as is possible is the goal and the “problem” as I define it. The Commission’s report apparently made some effort toward facts and truth, but again I know how government commissions and fact finding and official reports work and overall they are political products designed, among other reasons, to effect a certain response in the populace.
 
Archie, I think these shows by Benedict Groeschel might by helpful to you and others. Give it a listen and see if it changes your perspective about how you approach these topics.

Show number 119 and 118 repsectfully…

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?pgnu=4&SeriesID=7054

Here is a direct link to 119… I hope it works. This one I think is most helpful:

Show 119 - What To Do With Hurt Feelings.
ewtn.edgeboss.net/download/ewtn/audiolibrary/snl_02182007.mp3

All of his shows can be found here:

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=7054

I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you were once abused yourself. If so… then please accept this virtual hug.

:hug3:
 
Thank you, Josie Elaine for this posting…

"
The “Indian” children from Canada involved in the sexual abuse in the Catholic and Protestant institutions were, for the most part, not orphans at all. They were forcibly removed from their families around the age of six under the pretext that this was the only way to properly “civilize” them. They were promptly baptized, taught the religion of their abductors, beaten for speaking their mother tongue, etc., etc., and those that survived were returned to their parents at the age of 16, totally unable to fit in the native culture after 10 years of indoctrination into “civilization”. Hence, the extremely high incidence of suicide in the Canadian native population. This is my country, Canada, and I am deeply ashamed of this part of our history. "

While this probably is a more accurate representation of the Canada matter, I still recall that the, shall I call them “abductions”, involved also stealing /confiscating the “aboriginals’” land and property.

I just learned of these cases and matters in the last few years of my life. I am not only deeply ashamed, I am outraged and sickened. I do not think an official apology letter from the “CC” suffices at all.

There was much money paid out by the church to the victims and victims families in Ireland, but virtually no compensation, or even simple acknowledgement, to the Canadian aboriginals.
 
No, I was never physically or sexually abused by anyone. I do not think I want to read about “hurt feelings” by Father Groeschel.

I am experiencing righteous indignation and vexation at gross atrocities committed agains “the least of these”.

I cannot understand why I am reading so many weak excuses and rationalizations in this thread.

The CC made some very poor decisions many decades ago in how to handle these infractions by their religious order members. Then the deceptions built upon the former ones and we have the situation we now have.
 
Archie I want to thank you for posting with sensitivity and in Christian charity…You did not come on making insulting claims about our clergy ,and remarks that not only show complete ignorance of our feelings, but you understand this is a universal problem among all religions

It is refreshing to find someone that isn’t just coming on making stupid insulting remarks, and refuses to do anything other than point fingers and throw insults around
 
My guess is what happened was pretty much what went on in all instatuitions be it religous or stat during this time

Pope Benedict has certainly aplogized to the victims and so did Pope John Paul…We can’t change the past nor should we try to hide from it…It serves no one to do this

The world was a vastly different when things like this happened than it is today…We need to protect everyone not just children, but the unborn ,and the elderly, and the mentally, ill and the retarded…All we can do is to roll up our sleeves and make a start

I have certainly seen much in my own diocese along these lines, and I am sure it is in all other dioceses too

While this has happened we also must be careful not to assume every charge anyone makes is true, without investigation…I saw this kind of thinkg happen in the States during the abuse scandals here…People were making all kinds of claims that weren’t true, and money was a big part of it…we must alos protect the innocent as well as see the guilty are prosecuted
 
redrosetea said:
The world was a vastly different when things like this happened than it is today…
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So there was a time when the world didn’t think it was so bad that nuns and priests and brothers raped, tortured, scalded, burned, beat senseless and killed children in their care? And a time when priests, nuns and brothers didn’t see anything wrong with it? When was this exactly?
 
Archie said:
No, I was never physically or sexually abused by anyone. I do not think I want to read about “hurt feelings” by Father Groeschel.

I am experiencing righteous indignation and vexation at gross atrocities committed agains “the least of these”.

I cannot understand why I am reading so many weak excuses and rationalizations in this thread.

The CC made some very poor decisions many decades ago in how to handle these infractions by their religious order members. Then the deceptions built upon the former ones and we have the situation we now have.
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Forgive me if I was mistaken about you being abused, and please understand I was only trying to help (because I thought there was some good information in the show).

You see, I was psychologically abused in public secular schools by my peers and teachers for years. So, I understand what it means to be abused. As angry as I was for years about what happened, I realize that the only solution to abuse is to find ways to prevent it from happening. I can’t go back and fix the past, but I can do my best to help prevent abuse in the future. There are good people in Catholic institutions, and the Church was instrumental in helping me get away from abuse. I also now understand the motivations and causes for the behavior of the people who abused me and forgive them… just like my Lord forgave those who abused him on the cross.

I try to be fair to both sides and try to be skeptical to help prevent things like this from happening:

gordonmacrae.net/index.htm

I don’t think my caution… in the face of grievous misinformation in the news media… is unjustified. It’s certainly not meant to be an excuse for people who really have done bad things. After all, we have to protect the innocent at the same time we try to stop injustices. I also realize, that many of the people who did these things in the past are either dead… will be dead soon… and/or haven’t committed these acts for years. I cannot dig up the bones of the dead and punish them.

You should know that the minister who runs Hidden from History is extremely anti-catholic, and I have to question his motivations due to his repeated use of charges against the Catholic church that have time and time again been disproven as false. A quick search of CA will find information proving what I have just said.

Example: hiddenfromhistory.org/RecentUpdatesampArticles/April232009WhythePopeisNotSorry/tabid/94/Default.aspx

A man that is willing to spread false information in one instance must be scrutinized for accuracy.

You should also know, that in the video the website promotes… there is a woman who claims to have seen an infant thrown into an incinerator. She claims the infant belonged to a seven year old girl. A seven year old child giving birth to a live infant? Think about that testimony for a while. Is it true? What actually happened?

I thank you for bringing the incidents in Canada to my attention. I will be exploring other sources on this matter. You might do well to look closer yourself.
 
Brickmaker said:
So there was a time when the world didn’t think it was so bad that nuns and priests and brothers raped, tortured, scalded, burned, beat senseless and killed children in their care? And a time when priests, nuns and brothers didn’t see anything wrong with it? When was this exactly?
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You are twisting what I posted…much of this stuff that went on was hidden, and kept quiet…I also suspect a lot of the people doing this were also mentally ill…You are also tarring everone with the same brush…We didn’t have the communications decades ago that we do now…The Victorians also didn’t talk about stuff like this

I want you to understand something, for every person that indulged in this, there have been hundreds if not thousands of religous that gave their lives to nurse and care for others…During plagues and in foreign lands…You have to look at the entire church the good and the heroic along with the sick and siful

*I could rattle off hundreds of names of people that died that were nuns or priest, ort brothers, trying to make a decent and a better world for others…They by far outweigh the people that acted like this

So don’t act like this is the only type of person that the church has given to the world…There are millions of Mother Theresas and Father Diamians that have worked tireslessly and unselfishly living lives that were heroic and saintly
 
Archie said:
I cannot understand why I am reading so many weak excuses and rationalizations in this thread.
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They’re probably not any different than the weak excuses and rationalizations that allowed the perps to get away with all these horrors for so many years
 
redrosetea said:
The Victorians also didn’t talk about stuff like this
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What did the Victorians have to do with it? These children were abused and tormented in 20th century Ireland. If Fr Flanagan could see what was going on there when he visited, and spoke out about it, why didn’t anyone pay attention?

The good that these orders did is also irrelevant to the abuse controversy and must be of cold comfort to the abused whose lives were destroyed.
 
For a long time the Victurian culture sort of etermined how people acted and dealt with things

I think you only want to foucus in on the bad and make it look like everyone behaved like that

I am not making excuses for bad behavior but I am pointing out it is not a complete picture of religious men and women but a unfortunate fringe…

You don’t want to see anything but the bad, and that is not a true picture of anything…I acknowledge that bad I don’t excuse it, but it doesn’t blind me to the beauty and the heroism that the majority of religious exhibit now and in the past…The good far out weighs the bad and it always has
 
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