Irish abuse report is 'shocking'

[ConfusedTim]

This is just the tip of the Iceberg. I am a Historian by vocation and so therefore I have a grasp of the sweep of History. The truth is there if you are willing to see it. The Roman Church has a consistent history as an abusive system. Starting in 1200 until 1800 the Roman Church has abused, tortured, and killed thousands of people who disagreed with its teachings. It has sanctioned slavery, mistreatment of indigenous peoples by Spain, Portugal, and other Catholic European powers. It has opposed Science by choking freedom of inquiry and has silenced those who challenged Rome in the field of the intellect. Starting in the 1800s it has opposed Democratic principles and social democratic principles which most of us take for granted today. The Roman Church has fought tooth and nail against freedom of Religion and freedom of conscience.

I have been surfing the web and going to different Catholic forums and what I see there is what I see here, Catholics trying to make excuses for and downplay and cast doubt on the victims of this scandal Ireland. I find such behaviour sickening and morally repulsive.

I left the Roman Church not long ago over Doctrinal issues. If I hadn’t done it then this scandal certainly would have caused me to leave. Because this is just yet another expose in what has become an endemic institutional behaviour, IE the Roman System with its combination of wrong Dogmas, Clerical Celibacy, and Hierarchical Pope who has absolute authority to the point of allegedly being infallible are the actual causes of this long train of abuses and institutional behaviour, from the 600 year reign of terror of the Inquisition, the enslaving of native peoples, opposition to Science, freedom of Religion, liberty of Conscience, Social Democratic principles,and the silencing of Scientific and academic inquiry.

This latest scandal is the last straw for me. I really don’t care what Roman Catholic Apologists say now. As far as I am concerned, based on the behaviour of the Roman Church in this and other scandals and its barbarous callous behaviour, I know that these “Apologists” are distorters of truth and in some cases have been liars whose only interest is to justify Rome and “prove” the Roman Church right at the expense of facts and truth.

When Lech Walesa in Poland started “Solidarity” and the Polish shipyard workers went on strike the Communist government sent negotiators to talk it out. Lech Walesa climbed up a scaffolding with a bullhorn and shouted

“We don’t believe your lies anymore”

to the government representatives.

I say now

to the Popes

to the Hierarchy and Magisterium of the Roman Church

to all the Roman Catholic Apologists and “Catholic Answers”

I Don’t Believe Your Lies Anymore

Kotek, if you read my posts above you can see that i am no apologist for the churches beahviour, but i also doubt very much your assertion that you are in any way or shape a historian. If you want to make a point then be precise and give examples that way people might listen. Just firing of a litany of urban myths and half truths will bot change anyones opinion, which is why i presume you are on this board.

 

[Cinette]

This is just the tip of the Iceberg. I am a Historian by vocation and so therefore I have a grasp of the sweep of History. The truth is there if you are willing to see it. The Roman Church has a consistent history as an abusive system. Starting in 1200 until 1800 the Roman Church has abused, tortured, and killed thousands of people who disagreed with its teachings. It has sanctioned slavery, mistreatment of indigenous peoples by Spain, Portugal, and other Catholic European powers. It has opposed Science by choking freedom of inquiry and has silenced those who challenged Rome in the field of the intellect. Starting in the 1800s it has opposed Democratic principles and social democratic principles which most of us take for granted today. The Roman Church has fought tooth and nail against freedom of Religion and freedom of conscience.

I have been surfing the web and going to different Catholic forums and what I see there is what I see here, Catholics trying to make excuses for and downplay and cast doubt on the victims of this scandal Ireland. I find such behaviour sickening and morally repulsive.

I left the Roman Church not long ago over Doctrinal issues. If I hadn’t done it then this scandal certainly would have caused me to leave. Because this is just yet another expose in what has become an endemic institutional behaviour, IE the Roman System with its combination of wrong Dogmas, Clerical Celibacy, and Hierarchical Pope who has absolute authority to the point of allegedly being infallible are the actual causes of this long train of abuses and institutional behaviour, from the 600 year reign of terror of the Inquisition, the enslaving of native peoples, opposition to Science, freedom of Religion, liberty of Conscience, Social Democratic principles,and the silencing of Scientific and academic inquiry.

This latest scandal is the last straw for me. I really don’t care what Roman Catholic Apologists say now. As far as I am concerned, based on the behaviour of the Roman Church in this and other scandals and its barbarous callous behaviour, I know that these “Apologists” are distorters of truth and in some cases have been liars whose only interest is to justify Rome and “prove” the Roman Church right at the expense of facts and truth.

When Lech Walesa in Poland started “Solidarity” and the Polish shipyard workers went on strike the Communist government sent negotiators to talk it out. Lech Walesa climbed up a scaffolding with a bullhorn and shouted

“We don’t believe your lies anymore”

to the government representatives.

I say now

to the Popes

to the Hierarchy and Magisterium of the Roman Church

to all the Roman Catholic Apologists and “Catholic Answers”

I Don’t Believe Your Lies Anymore

You are an Historian by vocation?

I do not believe it. First of all you have made some serious errors in your statements regarding European history. Secondly, why do you not say at least where you are from and what Faith you belong to?

I detect anger - actually BLIND FURY! Noone should make a posting when one is under such a cloud. You, my friend, should step back and reflect and measure your words. You are not in a fit state to make any comments whatsoever because you have begun by making false statements. You are displaying ignorance, something which any historian cannot afford to do.

Think, reflect, check your facts and take a deep breath - then, maybe you can speak. Say a prayer if you are a person of faith.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You are an Historian by vocation?

I do not believe it. First of all you have made some serious errors in your statements regarding European history. Secondly, why do you not say at least where you are from and what Faith you belong to?

I detect anger - actually BLIND FURY! Noone should make a posting when one is under such a cloud. You, my friend, should step back and reflect and measure your words. You are not in a fit state to make any comments whatsoever because you have begun by making false statements. You are displaying ignorance, something which any historian cannot afford to do.

Think, reflect, check your facts and take a deep breath - then, maybe you can speak. Say a prayer if you are a person of faith.

I skimmed through some of the guy’s posts. Looks like a total poser who can’t make up his mind of what church to join. A historian who lets his emotions sway him so easily is a joke.

 

[Cinette]

We Catholics are terribly wounded by this kind of atrocity especially when some of our clergy may be involved.

We know that this is not something of which Catholics only are guilty - it is a universal thing. Not long ago I read a memoir by a woman who suffered tremendously in an orphanage in England. There have been bodies of little children found in the grounds of an orphanage in the Isle of Wight . This is a human tragedy which certain people with no power of analysis whatsoever try to turn into a Catholic thing. An excuse to get at the Church.

It is unworthy of any person who is honest to point fingers in this way!

May God help them!

In a situation like this people of Faith should rally around each other and pray. I remember a couple of years ago when I read in the papers that the Anglican Church was losing members etc. I prayed for them.

Blessings to all
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

it’s amazing that we can see the ugly truth now tens of thousands of victims worldwide, thousands of priests accused, not ONE BISHOP EVER DID ANYTHING!!! But the normal heterosexual priest who is caught with a full grown woman? he’s thrown before the lions and not one person apologizes for him, he is absolutely demonized. yet we can get hundreds of posters apologizing for decades (that we know about) of child rape, abuse of young teens, torture, and all the while the “bishops” look the other way, not one in the tens of thousands of known abuse cases did a bishop do the right thing.

Is this not perhaps an exageration?

By the way I love the Catholic Church. Some years ago I employed a Catholic priest who left the Church to marry and we are still friends.

Will you stop pointing fingers and think, reflect and pray.

 

[Cinette]

Guys it’s not over yet! I’m Irish, living in Dublin and I am just about completely disheartened and sickened by the barrage of “complaints” of abuse…It’s totally newsworthy and a popular subject to hit “headlines” whenever there is a scandal reavealed within the Catholic Church, ( even if it’s been regurgitated several times over, they never get tired…) Media that is…!

I think our own society “owns” this problem to a certain extent! I have 7 siblings, four of them boys…All went to Christian Brothers Schools and one out of four was told what Christian brother to avoid…like it was a joke or something???..It’s no joke…and God forgive us thinking our kiddies could deal with that at the time…I’m so sorry for the CB’s because I think the vast majority where good guys…Shhhhhh…(or maybe don’t Shhh)…they should have “spoken up…”…Evil flourishes when Good men do nothing…"…

Anyway, it is horrific being a practicing Catholic here at the moment because of what happened within the last fifty odd years…It’s so horrendous, most of us don’t know what to say, or how to say it…??? I love my faith, but I feel “let down”…as I have heard so many others say…

We need a cleansing…and I am still waiting for the Church to address our “Western World Culture” with bravado…and humility…!!!

I am hopeful and willing to admit it… I love my faith, but I will NOT stand by and watch cover ups…re-locations…( especially to my home Country )…No way…we’ve outgrown that, we need a Church and Fathers, Bishops, and Priests who willl lead up into that future by being open and honest about past mistakes…My Goodness, of all people these guys should be accountable to any law of any land they serve under…Not just “moved” conveniently…I hate this, and having to defend these treacherous individuals…they should have to answer for themselves…and God knows they will…! Our faith will demand it at the end of the day, they do more harm to us than good…Cover ups are horrible, disgusting, and deserve the utmost contempt…

I don’t care if the same evils where commited elsewhere…I REALLY REALLY want my faith to lay the cards down and move on…I am so sick of seeing empty pews over this stuff…Edit: I don’t mean I don’t care!! I just think the original accusation and avoidance has gone beyond excuses! Whatever any other “institution” knew about abuse or committed abuse…it doesn’t depreciate the fact that we have to “deal with the abuse…up front…and in public…”…It’s a global newsworthy world these days…Thank God!

The faithful today would be rejuvenated and reconciled with our history and our past…if only we could hold our heads up high and said we honoured God with our decisions…and our judgements…

If people in the past did wrong, well…they did wrong…and the “victims” are the one’s we should consider…not as enemies but as potential children in Jesus…

We should be leading the way not lagging behind…

Jail for the accused before “monetary” payment for the “victim”…I’m sure most honest victims would just want to see the perpetrators behind bars…

Can money really pay? I find this kind of abhorrant in and of itself…!

Thank you Lettyd - you express our pain and disappointment exactly.

Yes ALL those guilty should be jailed - and for the rest of their days because their actions probably bred even more abusers like them!

We have to accept responsibility for such abuse and never cover up. I am glad, although I wince all the time, that this is being exposed in all its gory details.

Let us pray for the victims that they may find it in their hearts to forgive. Let us pray for the Church that they will be able to ferrit out any potential abuser from the seminaries. Let us be vigilent and teach our children to be BOLD and to speak up and let us LISTEN!

In High School I went to a Catholic boarding school and most of the children were Protestant and there were some Jews. Whenever some Catholic did something wrong or naughty (that was me) the girls would say "…and she was Catholic too!!! Somehow they expected more of us!

We need a big purge!

Keep the Faith Lettyd and pray, pray, pray!

 

[Cinette]

We have been discussing the abused and the abusers on this thread.

How about discussing those of us who feel that we can be the judges of these people??!

I ask this question as I watch the scandal of the Ministers and Party representatives of all parties in the British expenses scandal unfold.

Everybody is up in arms and the Media are having a field day with the exposure. People are gloating and enjoying the whole saga!

If the people were in the shoes of these politicians would their expense accounts be squeaky clean and honest?

Would those of us who have never taken a pencil home from the office please stand up!

 

[lemonbeam]

Where does the money come from to pay to these abuse victims?

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Where does the money come from to pay to these abuse victims?

Mostly from the Irish taxpayer.

In 2002, the religious Congregations in Ireland negotiated with the government to cap their total liability. The final agreement was for €128 (about $180 million). It is estimated that this figure is about one tenth of the amount needed to pay legal costs and compensation to 14,000 victims. Any victim who accepts the payments, which average €65,000 must sign away their rights to sue either the church or state.

The religious congregations have paid €62 million in cash and covered the rest by handing over 61 properties. But Ireland’s Ireland’s economy in recession and a general collapse in property values over the past year, it is likely that the buildings are worth much less than €66 million and are unlikely to find buyers.

So, as I said, the Irish taxpayer will have to foot the bill.

The full report is available here www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt

The Irish compensation board for abuse victims www.rirb.ie

 

[ChristIsLord]

Where does the money come from to pay to these abuse victims?

not from me anymore, i see schools closing down and the church having to pay off hundreds of millions because the church leadership has been morally bankrupt for the past 50 years (that we know about, this could’ve been going on much much longer but most of those people would be dead by now)…

 

[lemonbeam]

not from me anymore, i see schools closing down and the church having to pay off hundreds of millions because the church leadership has been morally bankrupt for the past 50 years (that we know about, this could’ve been going on much much longer but most of those people would be dead by now)…

Hello, why are you not a Christian anymore? Because of this scandal?

 

[Lettyd]

Mostly from the Irish taxpayer.

In 2002, the religious Congregations in Ireland negotiated with the government to cap their total liability. The final agreement was for €128 (about $180 million). It is estimated that this figure is about one tenth of the amount needed to pay legal costs and compensation to 14,000 victims. Any victim who accepts the payments, which average €65,000 must sign away their rights to sue either the church or state.

The religious congregations have paid €62 million in cash and covered the rest by handing over 61 properties. But Ireland’s Ireland’s economy in recession and a general collapse in property values over the past year, it is likely that the buildings are worth much less than €66 million and are unlikely to find buyers.

So, as I said, the Irish taxpayer will have to foot the bill.

The full report is available here www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt

The Irish compensation board for abuse victims www.rirb.ie

Why did our state agree to this? I’m baffled! Why would our “State” interfere in the first place and say more or less…“Ahh yeah sure we’ll pay…!” Makes no sense to me anyway…

Only thing I can think of… is that there are probably judges and everything embroiled in the whole controversy throughout the last few decades. Afterall, the Gardai, Judges, Doctors…and even Parents ( shockingly enough ) “knew” that something was deadly wrong in these institutions…And they did…Nothing! They allowed this rot to spread and get worse over time with their complete apathy, and awe filled hypocrisy…

Why didn’t anybody ever speak out?

Perhaps I’m listening to propaganda, but isn’t the Church one of the richest Institutions? Why the need to strike a deal? Mmmm strange…

I’m really upset about how this is going to affect Catholics of this generation too…There has been some hysteria on message boards, and the obvious opportunists jumping in with their own agenda…Some people talking about not getting their babies Christened or Confirmed…and a cry out to the state and Church to seperate as far as education in particular is concerned…

It’s a bitter sweet legacy of our history that the Church were ever involved with education…Seems it’s gone really bitter since we’ve decided “at long last…” to stand up and say “this is wrong…” …

 

[Holly3278]

With all the outside pressure’s making the Church look bad it is so sad when it shoots itself in the foot. We should pray for all those involved.

Amen! We should pray for all those involved.

 

[Norminha]

Amen, Shin!!!

However, in principle anyone with knowledge of Catholic history should know that the Church is not an impeccable institution, but one containing sinners high and low, from laypeople, to priest, to bishop, to Pope. And that this does not affect the divine nature of the institution, anymore than it affected the divine nature of Israel, however much the great majority of it denied God.

The teachings of the Church are always a shining light before the nations, because despite the sins of those high and low, they are always there, and always will be, and despite the sins and failings of those high and low, the divine nature and foundation of the Church remains.

For over 2,000 years the Church of Jesus Christ is standing in splendor and glory and will continue until the returning of her Husband, our Lord Jesus. And this is all I care.
Maranatha!!!

It is easier to forgive than to accuse! It is energy saving!!
Keep praying for those terrible sinners, including ourselves! Don’t waste any more time!

 

[7_Sorrows]

it is nice to forgive and it is nice to apologize for the Church, but what can Catholics do to prevent these type of scandals from happening again. we can’t remain silent, because that is part of covering up. sometimes forgiving and apologizing isn’t enough.

 

[Cinette]

Amen, Shin!!!

For over 2,000 years the Church of Jesus Christ is standing in splendor and glory and will continue until the returning of her Husband, our Lord Jesus. And this is all I care.
Maranatha!!!

It is easier to forgive than to accuse! It is energy saving!!
Keep praying for those terrible sinners, including ourselves! Don’t waste any more time!

It is also evidence that light overcomes darkness;
Good overcomes evil;
Life conquers death;
Love overcomes a multitude of sins;
Love gives us hope;
Faith generates grace;
Trust builds our Faith;
Faith builds us up;
God is always with us and has given the Holy Spirit to empower us.

I just allowed my feelings to be expressed and when I contemplate these things I have evidence of God’s great love and promises. We need each other - community builds us up - our Faith builds us up - we need to love and to share and to reach out and give of ourselves in order to survive!

 

[Cinette]

it is nice to forgive and it is nice to apologize for the Church, but what can Catholics do to prevent these type of scandals from happening again. we can’t remain silent, because that is part of covering up. sometimes forgiving and apologizing isn’t enough.

Precisely what is happening now - EXPOSURE!

We need to be vigilent and transparent and to teach our children how to defend themselves and speak up.

Above all we need to listen to children and give them the attention they need.

For too long parents have used this “mantra” that “children should be seen and not heard”. Well, children should be heard, children *need *our constant attention, children need reassurance - CHILDREN NEED STABILITY AND THAT MEANS LOVING AND STABLE FAMILIES.

We are to blame for our children’s pain. We have inflicted too much pain on our children. When families are splintered our children are the victims, they suffer. We need to take our Faith seriously and constantly depend on God to support and assist us. We need to love with a sacraficial love. Our children should come first - they are gifts from God and have been given to us for safekeeping.

We have taken God for granted for too long. It is time to take stock.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Why did our state agree to this? **I don’t know why the State agreed to cap the Congregations’ liability at such a low figure. I would have thought that a 50-50 Church-State liability would have been more equitable and just.**I’m baffled! Why would our “State” interfere in the first place and say more or less…“Ahh yeah sure we’ll pay…!” Makes no sense to me anyway… **The State placed these children in the care of the religious Congregations and paid for them to be looked after. Therefore it had a duty of care towards them. That duty involved the proper and diligent oversight of how the children were treated and the investigation of complaints. As Justice Ryan’s report makes clear, the State failed in this duty. Both the State (through its government) and the religious Congregations (through their current superiors) have accepted responsibility for what happened in these institutions. The fact that neither the current government nor the current superiors (nor, indeed, the current taxpayers) were in any way responsible for what happened historically is irrelevant. **

 

[Norminha]

Indeed,

I just allowed my feelings to be expressed and when I contemplate these things I have evidence of God’s great love and promises. We need each other - community builds us up - our Faith builds us up - we need to love and to share and to reach out and give of ourselves in order to survive!

My God never asked me to be nice but to follow His Truth. His Truth is FORGIVENESS, which is LOVE itself. If all our WORLDLY WORKS seems **NOT **WORKING ANYMORE (no matter how angry one becomes), we still have the power to forgive and pray for ALL SINNERS. Why not to give it a try?:clapping:

ANYWAY by Mother Teresa
People are often unreasonable, illogical,
and self-centered;
Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind, People may accuse you
of selfish, ulterior motives;
Be kind anyway.

If you are successful, you will win some
false friends and some true enemies;
Succeed anyway.

If you are honest and frank,
people may cheat you;
Be honest and frank anyway.

What you spend years building, someone
could destroy overnight.
Build anyway.

If you find serenity and happiness,
they may be jealous;
Be happy anyway.

The good you do today,
people will often forget tomorrow;
Do good anyway.

Give the world the best you have,
and it may never be enough;
Give the world the best you’ve got anyway.

You see, in the final analysis,
it is between you and God;
It was never between you and them anyway.
PRAY FOR ALL OUR MILITARY BROTHERS & SISTERS this Memorial Day!!

 

[Yellow_Belle]

The religious congregations’ 2002 deal with the Irish State has been much criticised here and there have been many calls for the settlement to be revisited. Now it seems even members of the hierarchy are beginning to question it:

rte.ie/news/2009/0524/abuse.html