Irish abuse report is 'shocking'

[Detales]

Snerticus,

I think it is great that you are diligent in your faith. To me that only means that you are being honest to yourself as far as you can with what you have, which is exactly what I belive we are all doing.

I was, believe me, in a very similar pair of shoes to yours. Few surpassed me in my zeal for spreading Catholicism, even to denouncing the ways of other religions. But then the rug was unceremoniously pulled out from under me and it was a long effort to regain a meaningful footing. I did find a way of seeing things that was significantly inclusive of many ways, yet principled and consistent in its clarity of explanation. In this way I was actually reconciled to the core source of the Catholic teaching, but on a vastly different footing than is commonly understood. That required, as well, a more thorough than usual delving into church history. I think I have fulfilled your requirement in that area from several perspectives.

And of course the Son of God is not flawed. My urging for anyone to look at the origins of their faith is meant to be an excercise in self knowledge. That is an area of inquiry that appears to be greatly neglected these days by too many to their great loss. The injunction “Gnothi Seaton,” Know thySelf, is not a frivolous platitude. It can be the gate to one’s freedom and a deep foundation in the source of the Golden Rule.

What I do owe you an appology for is what came off, unfortunately, as a bit of snobbery. I play at being an art snob, and proud of it, but this forum is not the venue for that kind of behavior. I do not and did not mean that all of your post are “wrong.” I mean that I do not agree with some of your premises regarding God and religion. For that reason I do not wish your prayers, or the prayers of anyone with similar beliefs, as I do feel that our thoughts have an effect on one another. That is why I do not “pray” in my sense of the word “for” someone unless directly asked. I felt that I was included in the group you were intending to pray for, and got too enthusiasitc about asking to be excused from that ministration. I’m somewhat surprised and red faced about myself in this because I have often encouraged backing off of someone’s “case” on the grounds that we didn’t know who they are.

That is why I am disapointed when the only bit of info I see in someone’s public profile is “Catholic.” That doesn’t help with the intention of tayloring an answer to the background of a poster. A one word profile doesn’t tell you much about whether one is addressing a teenager testing their theological legs, or a full professor of amphigory, an actual Saint, a cleric, or on overly pious lay person, a sage, or anything. It is also why I have posted a lot of info on my own profile, as a conversational courtesy to visitors. I even inadvertantly had a link on there to my private home number! I don’t think though that all the things I posted show up when the profile is viewed, at least I don’t see them except in edit mode.

But anyway, I had no intention of implying you should stop posting, by any means. The expression and exchange of ideas and perceptions is why we are here. All of us are students. But when it comes to prayer, I do everything in my means to stop even my Mother from praying for me. I don’t want that kind of attention focused on me. Take it as a preference, a vehement preference if you will, but don’t take it as a wish to keep you from posting. Our presence here is in the currency of exchanging ideas and that can be a way we become wealthy in perceptions and experience. I can only encourage such exchange.

As for my writing, I learned at the hands of the good Salesian Fathers. Even the one who threw chalk at us and wasted boxes of it on ballistic excercises that defeated his purpose. I was blessed as well to be for some time within osmosing distance of one of the best speakers of classical English I have ever heard. But that is another story. You may also be pleased to know that one of my nicknames is “Bindar the Obscure.” I have some affectionate friends who believe that I learned English too well and delight in making things excessively complicated. I just think I like long lines of musical expression and do it with words because I can’t carry a tune!

In any case, please don’t take me as discouraging your postings. That would be sad, unnecessary, and unproductive. Besides, I think you would anyway, just to make me look, lol!

Thanks for your notes.

Bindar Doondat.

 

[NPC]

When the fruit is so bad, one has to wonder whether Rice was any better than the creatures in the body he founded. This is one of the worrying things about all the scandals - were the supposedly holy persons who founded so many of the bodies involved, fit to be honoured as holy people - or were they depraved, but lucky enough not to be found out ? What reason is there to imagine that Maciel is the only dodgy founder ? He had a reputation as a holy man. What is there to suggest Rice was any better; or a host of others ? If they were perverts or psychopaths or sex addicts, who apart from those able to hush up their less saintly activities would know ?​

Sorry to ask that - but how can the question not be asked ? Especially as the Church now insists that canonisation is an ***infallible ***act.

I do understand your asking this question - I’m sure such a question is running through other peoples’ head too. I suppose, as we have seen with abuse cases involving the clergy in both Ireland and abroad, it is all to easy to tar all clerics with the same brush - or to at least be more suspicious of them.

However, in relation to Blessed Ignatius Rice, with the small bit I have learned about his life over the years, I do believe that he was indeed a holy man who was dedicated to helping the marginalised in society.

One must remember that the Ireland of the twentieth century was absolutely worlds apart from the Ireland that Rice grew up in in the eighteenth century. As you may know, in 1762 when Rice was born, Catholics were suffering greatly under the Penal Laws (imposed by a Protestant government). These laws affected the majority of Irish people as Catholicism remained the main religion - Catholics were not allowed to hold public office, they could not inherit property unless they “converted” to Protestantism. The so-called Hedge Schools became the main source of education for Catholics because instruction in the Catholic faith was illegal. This is how Rice himself was educated - this is the world he grew up in and these harsh laws were not repealed until Rice was twenty years old.

Rice was involved in business after his education and he married in 1785. His wife died tragically in an accident four years later. She was pregnant at the time and the baby was delivered on her deathbed - Rice’s daughter was born, but she was of fragile health. Following the tragedy, Rice devoted his life to charitable work - he sold his business and sought to train teachers who would dedicate their lives to prayer and who would be willing to teach children free of charge. These schools grew in popularity - despite the repeal of the Penal Laws, Catholics continued to suffer terrible hardship. This hardship became more pronounced shortly during Rice’s last years during the Great Famine of the 1840’s. The Famine was a catalyst for the formation of a number of religious orders - the order which educated me, the Patrician Brothers, came to my home city during the famine with the goal of firstly feeding the children and then educating them. I believe that Blessed Ignatius Rice in founding the Presentation Brothers and the Christian Brothers, Nano Nagle in founding the Presentation Sisters, Bishop Daniel Delaney in founding the Patrician Brothers and Sr Catherine McAuley in founding the Sisters of Mercy, did so out of genuine concern and love for the youth of Ireland.

Unfortunately, certain followers of Rice were not faithful to his ideals. While I know there is no excuse for what happened in the institutions - and indeed there are many different reasons for what happened - I believe that ultimately the abuse was symptomatic of a culture of greed which gradually grew (we know the institutions got money from the state which often funded lavish lifestyles for the brothers, rather than being used for the good of the children), and of course of a society which up until recently (1980’s) simply could not question anyone in the Church. Despite this, I think it is important to remember the religious who remained faithful to the Gospel and to the aims of their founders. I am personally of the view that Blessed Ignatius is most certainly worthy of the title “Blessed”.

 

[Cinette]

these scandals are very difficult for all Catholics. i am a new Catholic and they bother me, but for those of you who have been Catholics for many years, i admire your faith.
you obviously love your faith and the Church very much. before i became Catholic, i was troubled by some of the scandals i had read about and just since i became a Catholic less than a year ago, i have to admit, i question how all of these abuses were allowed to continue and how many people kept silent for so many years and the emotional pain they lived with for so long.
if we are supposed to try to change the Church from the inside - how can we, as Catholics,
stop these things from happening and stop further scandal to the Church? i am not one to hide my head in the sand. some very bad things have happened while the Church looked the other way. i find that very sad. especially since we are now in the 21st century.
sometimes i wonder what next.
granted, there are probably some who are making false complaints, but if even one is true
(and i am sure there are more true complaints than false ones) that is too many.
i don’t think we should attack people who question the reaction of the Church to abuse cases and how they were hushed.
it is always difficult to face the truth. until you face a problem head on, you really cannot begin to solve it.
if you believe that the Catholic Church was truly the church started by Jesus Christ, don’t you want it to always set a good example? these scandals show a very dark side of the Church and i wish we could erase that side forever so that no one is ever hurt again by people who they should have been able to trust.

I appreciate your feelings about these abuses as I too have suffered in the knowledge that there were priests and religious who committed such atrocieies - it is unbelievable. For me, who has known so many really good priests and religious - dedicated and self-giving, I hurt for them as well since I know that in the perception of many non-Catholics and Catholics the shame is attributed to those good man and women.

My Faith has not been damaged for I make a distinction between Church and the faithfull and that includes clergy. I know what the Catholic Church stands for and I have seen how it has stood the test of time despite abuse and corruption over the years. It is a human thing and I know that the Church is both human and divine.

For you Seven Sorrows who is a new convert and therefore possibly very fragile it must cause you a lot of pain and uncertainty. All I can say is that you must trust Jesus and his promise that he will be with us always and that the Holy Spirit will guide and empower the Church.

Pray for the abused and the abusers.

Love
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

I think it’s universal and it probably goes back hundreds of years. It’s like a cancer that’s trying to ruin the credibility of Mother Church. Hope that doesn’t sound like wacked out logic! It can grow exponentially, too, IMHO. Some evil priests abuse kids who grow up to abuse, whose victims grow up to abuse. (of course, not all victims grow up to be abusers) Maybe religious orders attract certain deviants because of power/control issues and accessibility to the vulnerable. It can attract pedophiles, sociopaths. But there are rays of light…the saints who remind everyone what the Church is really about.

I tend to agree that it is a universal thing, a human frailty. I believe that the breakdown of family life will further corrupt society. Humans are fragile and we need love and care when we are children to form our characters. Many who come from splintered families where there is abuse within the family tend to manifest the same tendencies when adult.

Sex is always in our face. You watch a movie - girl meets boy and the next scene is pillow talk! Kisses are not tender - they tear at each other’s clothes and appear to want to eat each other. That is not love.

If I had been exposed to such scenes when I was growing up who know how it would have affected me. Sex has become entertainment and recreation!

We need to seek purity and holiness. I have been fortunate to have had a wonderful, faithful husband who was the product of a great love and whose parents were a great example to us and to our children. The result is that our children have faithful partners also. One learns these things from growing up in the right environment. This does not mean that it cannot happen from a single parent family because there are many courageous and wonderful single parents but it makes it harder.

Having a loving and faithfull relationship brings a great deal of happiness and stress free relationship. There are always tensions in life in one way or another but when one has a firm and enduring marriage with a God-centredness one is able to cope better. That is a fact.

 

[ConfusedTim]

i can see that there are rotten eggs in every type of institution but the fact that makes me really doubt the church is the fact that there are cover ups. The guilty should be named and shamed and the church authorities are backing the guilty whilst leaving the innocent to suffer.

 

[irishpatrick]

I believe the best attack on any entity always comes from within. Many private prophecies have foretold of time in which the Church would be severely tested from within and that would the cause for a significant world-wide chastisement.

Time will tell…

 

[kotek]

But I’m sure some kept quiet because there was/is a mindset of protecting a priest NO MATTER WHAT. I think it’s a formula for disaster. This scandal makes the Church look so bad, makes us look so bad (even if we would never hurt a child). How can we as a Church speak out against abortion or gay marriage when pedophilia, abuse, and blatant disrespect for children is so rampant. And then there’s the scandal with the Legionnaires of Christ and their manipulative recruiting tactics. What’s going on??? How many people have left the Church because of things like this? How can it be fixed? IMHO, the Church needs to get it together if we’re going to truly live as Christ wants and bring people to Him.

This is just the tip of the Iceberg. I am a Historian by vocation and so therefore I have a grasp of the sweep of History. The truth is there if you are willing to see it. The Roman Church has a consistent history as an abusive system. Starting in 1200 until 1800 the Roman Church has abused, tortured, and killed thousands of people who disagreed with its teachings. It has sanctioned slavery, mistreatment of indigenous peoples by Spain, Portugal, and other Catholic European powers. It has opposed Science by choking freedom of inquiry and has silenced those who challenged Rome in the field of the intellect. Starting in the 1800s it has opposed Democratic principles and social democratic principles which most of us take for granted today. The Roman Church has fought tooth and nail against freedom of Religion and freedom of conscience.

I have been surfing the web and going to different Catholic forums and what I see there is what I see here, Catholics trying to make excuses for and downplay and cast doubt on the victims of this scandal Ireland. I find such behaviour sickening and morally repulsive.

I left the Roman Church not long ago over Doctrinal issues. If I hadn’t done it then this scandal certainly would have caused me to leave. Because this is just yet another expose in what has become an endemic institutional behaviour, IE the Roman System with its combination of wrong Dogmas, Clerical Celibacy, and Hierarchical Pope who has absolute authority to the point of allegedly being infallible are the actual causes of this long train of abuses and institutional behaviour, from the 600 year reign of terror of the Inquisition, the enslaving of native peoples, opposition to Science, freedom of Religion, liberty of Conscience, Social Democratic principles,and the silencing of Scientific and academic inquiry.

This latest scandal is the last straw for me. I really don’t care what Roman Catholic Apologists say now. As far as I am concerned, based on the behaviour of the Roman Church in this and other scandals and its barbarous callous behaviour, I know that these “Apologists” are distorters of truth and in some cases have been liars whose only interest is to justify Rome and “prove” the Roman Church right at the expense of facts and truth.

When Lech Walesa in Poland started “Solidarity” and the Polish shipyard workers went on strike the Communist government sent negotiators to talk it out. Lech Walesa climbed up a scaffolding with a bullhorn and shouted

“We don’t believe your lies anymore”

to the government representatives.

I say now

to the Popes

to the Hierarchy and Magisterium of the Roman Church

to all the Roman Catholic Apologists and “Catholic Answers”

I Don’t Believe Your Lies Anymore

 

[Yellow_Belle]

For example, St John Baptist de la Sales, founder of the Christian Brothers, is the patron saint of teachers. Yet, if you read his pedagogical method it seems to me to rely on an extreme distancing of teacher from student that, in the wrong hands, could easily lead to children being objectified. In contrast, St John Bosco, the founder of the Salesians, ruled out ‘hateful punishments’ from his method and sought to win his students over to goodness through love, exhortation and advice. We have different streams of thought and practise in Catholic education that need to be examined carefully.

Just a point of information: the Irish Christian Brothers were founded by Edmund Ignatius Rice, not John Baptist de Sales. See newadvent.org/cathen/13040b.htm

I’m not sure how this affects your point about pedagogical method.

 

[Shin]

You’ve made a number of accusations that are broad, sweeping, and inappropriate to a true historian who would understand the nations and cultures of the times, and not blame or misunderstand the various principles and factors involved. How many nations did so much more than you have accused, and continue to do so much more and worse?

It is understandable the outrage, there have been and continue to be great sins committed throughout the hierarchy, high and low. Yet these sins are mirrored throughout the world, outside the instituitions as well.

But this thread is particularly about the abuse in Ireland, not your machine gun method of attacks, which each individually are already addressed in any case, on various threads on these forums.

However, in principle anyone with knowledge of Catholic history should know that the Church is not an impeccable institution, but one containing sinners high and low, from laypeople, to priest, to bishop, to Pope. And that this does not affect the divine nature of the institution, anymore than it affected the divine nature of Israel, however much the great majority of it denied God.

The teachings of the Church are always a shining light before the nations, because despite the sins of those high and low, they are always there, and always will be, and despite the sins and failings of those high and low, the divine nature and foundation of the Church remains.

 

[tomarin]

My opinion (as an American of Irish descent): this is probably as much about Ireland as it is about the Catholic Church.

 

[tomarin]

If you’ve ever read any memoirs of boyhoods spent in English public schools (such as those by George Orwell or Oliver Sacks) you get the very distinct impression that in the British Isles at least, there was at one time a fine line between authoritarian discipline and institutionalized sadism. Sometimes mental stress can push people over that line.

I rather think that in Ireland the gloominess and pessimism of the culture combined with the poverty and asceticism of the life of the religious who ran these institutions somehow created a culture of sadistic treatment of children which is truly lamentable and wicked. I suspect what is needed now is a lot of soul-searching and perhaps criminal proceedings and I intend to pray for the souls of everyone involved.

 

[Shylah]

I am a Historian by vocation and so therefore I have a grasp of the sweep of History.

If this is true, then you certainly understand the complex relationship between Church and State during the Middle Ages, no? For example, I challenge you to tell me how the Spanish Inquisition came about, in detail.

The Roman Church has a consistent history as an abusive system.

hahaha… are you really an historian? If so, would you like to share with us how much abuse and torture the Catholics have suffered themselves? If you cannot name major events in history where Catholics were violently and mercilessly persecuted, I will not believe you are an historian, as you claim. Not for a second…

It has sanctioned slavery, mistreatment of indigenous peoples…

Bold claims. Now back it up with real evidence. Cite papal documents please, or you have no case.

It has opposed Science by choking freedom of inquiry and has silenced those who challenged Rome in the field of the intellect.

As a professor of physics, and a Catholic, I can say that there have been mistakes made, but in general this is a false claim. During the Middle Ages, the Church actually founded and supported many universities which were explicitly given academic freedoms, including in natural sciences. Actually the educational system that we have today is FAR more oppressive than what existed in the Middle Ages. Today’s scientists who disagree with the agenda-driven leftist topics (e.g. global warming) are mercilessly attacked and black-listed in order to shut down debate on the topic. Furthermore, whereas academics during the Middle ages had the freedom to talk about physics and philosophy in the same lecture, today’s academics do not enjoy such freedom because of the over-compartementalization that has taken place through this arificially forced separation of science from religion. Classical education (going back to the Greeks) was always holistic. Modern education, on the other hand, is incapable of understanding humanity and our relationship to the rest of nature because it insists on isolating different aspects of it.

Catholics trying to make excuses for and downplay and cast doubt on the victims of this scandal

Odd… nothing I have read here casts doubt on the true victims of the abuses. There was a very rational reminder, however, that within these mass scandals there will ALWAYS be two types of victims: those who were geniuinely abused, and those who were falsely accused of abusing. Both types of victims need to be remembered in our prayers, don’t you think?

I left the Roman Church not long ago over Doctrinal issues. If I hadn’t done it then this scandal certainly would have caused me to leave.

Funny, it doesn’t want to make me leave. Not at all. I love my Church.

The fact of the matter is that the Roman Catholic Church derives her holiness from Christ Himself, and He is able to act through the Church with the assistance of the faithful clergy and laity and *in spite of *scoundrels from within the Chruch. The scoundrels are not bigger than the Body of Christ. Thank the Lord…

Because this is just yet another expose in what has become an endemic institutional behaviour

I’m sure your comments are based on an unbiased assessment of both the good and the bad that has come from the Church, right?

IE the Roman System with its combination of wrong Dogmas, Clerical Celibacy, and Hierarchical Pope who has absolute authority to the point of allegedly being infallible

Cite the “wrong dogmas” please. Clerical celibacy is a God-send to women who need to talk about complex spiritual issues with a priest. If priests were married, it would not be appropriate to have such conversations. And then where would we go for guidance? Oh… maybe to one of those secularist pop-psychologists who want us to get in touch with our feelings. lol.

And with regards to Papal infallibility, do you even understand what this means? Only the Bible is Divinely Inspired, meaning literally “God Breathed”. It is utterly and truly inerrant in everything that is contained within the Bible as the authors had intended to communicate. Papal infallibility refers to the Holy Spirit providing safety to the Pope when he comments on Christian Dogma as it has been transmitted to us in time and disseminated in space. If we did not have this, then our Church would be in a state of theological chaos, much like what we see today in Protestantism.

This latest scandal is the last straw for me.

I thought the last straw was when you left the Church.

I really don’t care what Roman Catholic Apologists say now.

haha… obviously! You have your special knowledge now… enjoy your life, sir!

As far as I am concerned, based on the behaviour of the Roman Church in this and other scandals and its barbarous callous behaviour, I know that these “Apologists” are distorters of truth and in some cases have been liars whose only interest is to justify Rome and “prove” the Roman Church right at the expense of facts and truth.

You know, this conversation may be a little more interesting if you were to actually back up some of your rants with real facts… but then again, that would perhaps interfere with your version of “the truth.”

At any rate, take heart my fellow Catholics… we have scoundrels in our midst, but Christ is stronger than the scoundrels. We must serve Christ and confront the scoundrels head-on. We must also acknowledge that we do not have perfect knowledge of every situation, and we must pray for wisdom and guidance at every step of the way. Most of all, we must pray for both the victims of clergical abuse and for those who have been falsely accused.

In Christ,
Shylah

 

[Detales]

Shin and Shylah,

From my point of view your squirmings confirm Kotek’s, albeit emotional, mostly accurate view. But as with many posts on here, and to the support of some of your own points, this is not solely/souly a Catholic problem. But having such a label as Catholic aggrevates the situation for a particualar group of christainists as the focus of this thread. It has effects within and on the Church percieved institutionally and on its members which are in fact its functioning body, papal decrees etc. aside. (see documentation on the dismanuation of an entire people by Columbus, destruction of libraries in early CE, etc, etc.)

It is useless to argue this matter as a contrast of institutions. And the Catholic Church’s proper apology, in my opinion, would be to admit its historic corporate deception of ignorant people (despite universities which sponsored theological ignorance) and dissolve into something that can use its funds and resources to better mankind. But that is about as likely to happen as the United States admitting to and disolving over the issue that the Bush family, among others, materially and financially supported the Nazi regimen. (yes, it is documented in the papers and several books. Go look.) Or that Americans daily brutalize each other as did Catholics brutalize Catholics in the past and currently.

What we are dealing with, as I stated above, is a general level of human immaturity taken advantage of by those who have economic. material, and emotional advantage. As I quoted Adolph Hitler, “It is great luck for leaders that men don’t think.” Most of us think well enought to go to the corner grocery without breaking a leg, and to learn to use a vast array of conveniences invented by someone else. But that’s pretty much where it ends for most folks. We, as a group, have no concept of how simple things, like expotiential growth, or a religion accepted as a fact of life from birth, can be an opening for getting blindsided in the long run. We do not have a habit of critcal thinking. Why does anyone think our country went from first in education among the industrial countries to 29th over just about 19years??? Witness the sound-byte, fast take mentality and emotionalism of the corporate directed media. And we live in a world now where India has more honor students than we have students altogether. Wait till China really gets going.

But clearly, from evidence on here, Catholics are to be included in the general population of non-critical thinkers. If you two “S’s” go back and do a semantic analysis of your reply to Kotek, whatever the intellectual state of that post, you would be ashamed of yourselves and your page might turn red with blushing, even if you had valid (not true, but merely valid) objections to his statements.

I am fed up with people who use an ignorantly worshiped god (lower case, because an anthropomorphic, ignorantly construed mental image of God is idolatrous) to feel rightous and religious. I don’t blame you, I’m just railing against a system that allows our world to consistantly and globally utilize the laws of God as physics, yet allows for the deviancy of what, over 700 religions? I’m sorry kids, that’s parochialism triumphing over sanity. The resulting insanity coupled with ignorance allows for the deviancy that happens in our own Catholic house as not separate from the deviancy of the population in general. Wake up and grow up, not for God’s sake, but your, and our, own. Stop ignorantly serving corporations, economic and/or eclesiastic!

BTW, I just got this in an e-mail:“It is imperative to remember that the normal cognitive state is that of self-deception.” ~KG Mills. I’m not claiming that I’m exempt from this, but I *will *agitate for arduous and constant self examination and critical thinking.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

If you’ve ever read any memoirs of boyhoods spent in English public schools (such as those by George Orwell or Oliver Sacks) you get the very distinct impression that in the British Isles at least, there was at one time a fine line between authoritarian discipline and institutionalized sadism. Sometimes mental stress can push people over that line.

I rather think that in Ireland the gloominess and pessimism of the culture combined with the poverty and asceticism of the life of the religious who ran these institutions somehow created a culture of sadistic treatment of children which is truly lamentable and wicked. I suspect what is needed now is a lot of soul-searching and perhaps criminal proceedings and I intend to pray for the souls of everyone involved.

The institutions in which these Irish children suffered so terribly at the hands of those they might have expected would treat them with Christian compassion, were a far cry from an English public school - there is simply no comparison. For a start, English public schools cater primarily for the rich and privileged. Not to be flippant but their families paid good money to have their sons brutalized in the hopes that they would turn into men of honour and courage. This report is the result of a decade-long investigation into orphanages, reformatories, industrial schools and institutions for disabled children run by religious orders at the behest of the Irish state.

The children in these institutions were the most vulnerable in Irish society, poor, disadvantaged, often abandoned and voiceless. One of the things I found disturbing and heart-breaking in reading this report is that their relatives often knew what was going on but were pressured into silence by both Church and state. Likewise, some police, teachers and doctors knew but chose to ignore the children’s complaints.

To make matters worse, the government department that had oversight of these institutions - the Irish state was, after all, paying the religious congregations to run them - failed miserably to do so. Instead, according to the report:

the deferential and submissive attitude of the Department of Education towards the Congregations compromised its ability to carry out its statutory duty of inspection and monitoring of the schools.

But even worse IMO:

Contrary to the Congregations’ claims that the recidivist nature of sexual offending was not understood, it is clear from the documented cases that they were aware of the propensity for abusers to re-abuse…The risk, however, was seen by the Congregations in terms of the potential for scandal and bad publicity should the abuse be disclosed. The danger to children was not taken into account.

Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

There is little possibility of criminal proceedings based on this report. In 2004 the Irish Christian Brothers sued the Commission investigating these matters to keep the identities of its members, dead or alive, from being revealed in the report.

And it’s not over yet. The final report into the handling of cases of abuse in the Archdiocese of Dublin is due out in the next few weeks.

 

[tomarin]

The institutions in which these Irish children suffered so terribly at the hands of those they might have expected would treat them with Christian compassion, were a far cry from an English public school - there is simply no comparison. For a start, English public schools cater primarily for the rich and privileged. Not to be flippant but their families paid good money to have their sons brutalized in the hopes that they would turn into men of honour and courage. This report is the result of a decade-long investigation into orphanages, reformatories, industrial schools and institutions for disabled children run by religious orders at the behest of the Irish state.

Sure, point taken and I agree. If British public school kids got rough treatment by some sadistic educators at times then how much worse for the poor orphans in Ireland. I repeat: very, very wicked. I’m just trying to understand how something like this could have happened, and who is responsible.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

I worked for a man who was a man of such accomplishment in his spirtual life that Jesuit scholars came to him to ask his aid in resolving metaphysical impases. Mother Teresa was his guest for a week. Yes, that Mother Teresa. Her assistant didn’t want to leave. My Mentor, as I regarded my employer, was called by some Catholic clerics “The new St Chrysostom.” He was equally highly regarded by the teachers of other denominations, and Eastern sects from Sufis to Buddhists, some of whom regarded him as “living Vedanta” and others who thought he was the prophesied leader of their order. One Tibetan nun said that in her tradition such living teaching as his had not been given in 2000 years.

This man who was so well regarded by all faiths because of his fundamental stance that was such a solvent for all religions feared little. But one of the things he feared was the prayes of his students. I asked him why, and it was because of the fact that most of them prayed from an incorrect metaphysical standpoint, despite their sincerity. He didn not care to have such attention focused on him.

Snerticus, I regard you as a brother in the world of creatures here by the grace of the Loving God. But I have read your posts. I am simply requesting that you do not include at least me in your prayers, as sincere as they might be. I’m sure that your sincerity will save you in the end, but in the mean time, please don’t include me in your prayers. Thank you.

If you wish to do something useful, please arduously inquire as to what are the origins of your religious beliefs beyond what you were told and accepted. I assure you beyond the shadow of a doubt that you will find the results of such an inquiry exceptionally fruitful if you persist.

Bindar Doondat.

Bindar Doondat? What is that, Boont?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Can I ask a question? There seems to be a lot of effort in making reports such as these recently. The detail and amount of research must have taken a lot of time and resources to be poured in don’t you think?

I wonder… what would happen should they give the same effort when investigating sex abuses in Non-Catholic cases? (E.g. Public schools. Hospitals. Families. Other denominations/religions.)

Wouldn’t it be interesting to see the results and have it paraded the same way BBC is parading this now?

 

[ChristIsLord]

it’s amazing that we can see the ugly truth now tens of thousands of victims worldwide, thousands of priests accused, not ONE BISHOP EVER DID ANYTHING!!! But the normal heterosexual priest who is caught with a full grown woman? he’s thrown before the lions and not one person apologizes for him, he is absolutely demonized. yet we can get hundreds of posters apologizing for decades (that we know about) of child rape, abuse of young teens, torture, and all the while the “bishops” look the other way, not one in the tens of thousands of known abuse cases did a bishop do the right thing.

 

[Lettyd]

Guys it’s not over yet! I’m Irish, living in Dublin and I am just about completely disheartened and sickened by the barrage of “complaints” of abuse…It’s totally newsworthy and a popular subject to hit “headlines” whenever there is a scandal reavealed within the Catholic Church, ( even if it’s been regurgitated several times over, they never get tired…) Media that is…!

I think our own society “owns” this problem to a certain extent! I have 7 siblings, four of them boys…All went to Christian Brothers Schools and one out of four was told what Christian brother to avoid…like it was a joke or something???..It’s no joke…and God forgive us thinking our kiddies could deal with that at the time…I’m so sorry for the CB’s because I think the vast majority where good guys…Shhhhhh…(or maybe don’t Shhh)…they should have “spoken up…”…Evil flourishes when Good men do nothing…"…

Anyway, it is horrific being a practicing Catholic here at the moment because of what happened within the last fifty odd years…It’s so horrendous, most of us don’t know what to say, or how to say it…??? I love my faith, but I feel “let down”…as I have heard so many others say…

We need a cleansing…and I am still waiting for the Church to address our “Western World Culture” with bravado…and humility…!!!

I am hopeful and willing to admit it… I love my faith, but I will NOT stand by and watch cover ups…re-locations…( especially to my home Country )…No way…we’ve outgrown that, we need a Church and Fathers, Bishops, and Priests who willl lead up into that future by being open and honest about past mistakes…My Goodness, of all people these guys should be accountable to any law of any land they serve under…Not just “moved” conveniently…I hate this, and having to defend these treacherous individuals…they should have to answer for themselves…and God knows they will…! Our faith will demand it at the end of the day, they do more harm to us than good…Cover ups are horrible, disgusting, and deserve the utmost contempt…

I don’t care if the same evils where commited elsewhere…I REALLY REALLY want my faith to lay the cards down and move on…I am so sick of seeing empty pews over this stuff…Edit: I don’t mean I don’t care!! I just think the original accusation and avoidance has gone beyond excuses! Whatever any other “institution” knew about abuse or committed abuse…it doesn’t depreciate the fact that we have to “deal with the abuse…up front…and in public…”…It’s a global newsworthy world these days…Thank God!

The faithful today would be rejuvenated and reconciled with our history and our past…if only we could hold our heads up high and said we honoured God with our decisions…and our judgements…

If people in the past did wrong, well…they did wrong…and the “victims” are the one’s we should consider…not as enemies but as potential children in Jesus…

We should be leading the way not lagging behind…

Jail for the accused before “monetary” payment for the “victim”…I’m sure most honest victims would just want to see the perpetrators behind bars…

Can money really pay? I find this kind of abhorrant in and of itself…!

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Can I ask a question? There seems to be a lot of effort in making reports such as these recently. The detail and amount of research must have taken a lot of time and resources to be poured in don’t you think? If you’re talking about Ireland, yes.

I wonder… what would happen should they give the same effort when investigating sex abuses in Non-Catholic cases? (E.g. Public schools. Hospitals. Families. Other denominations/religions.) **Tribunals or judicial/public inquiries are a way of life in Ireland and are usually established under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921.

We’ve had tribunals on:**

1926: Retail prices of articles in general consumption
1926: Ports and Harbours
1928: Shooting of Timothy Coughlin
1929: Whether mixture of maize meal and maize products with home-grown cereals would be in the national interest
1930: Marketing of butter
1933: Pig production
1934: Grading etc. of Fruit and Vegetables
1935: Town Tenants
1936: Pearse Street Fire
1938: Public Transport
1943: Fire at St. Josephs Orphanage, Cavan
1943: Dealings in Great Southern Railway Stocks between 1 January 1943 and 18 November 1943
1946: Allegations concerning Parliamentary Secretary
1947: Disposal of Distillery of John Locke and Co. Ltd., Kilbeggan
1957: Cross Channel Freight Rates
1967: Death of Liam O’Mahony in Garda custody
1969: “Seven Days” Television programme on illegal moneylending
1975: Allegations made by two Members in the Dáil against the Minister For Local Government
1979: Costello Inquiry into the Whiddy Island Disaster
1981: Tribunal of Inquiry into the Stardust Disaster
1984: The Kerry Babies Tribunal to determine the cause of death/connection between the bodies of two babies found within a short period of time in County Kerry
1991: Tribunal of Inquiry into the Beef Industry, chaired by Mr Justice Liam Hamilton
1997: Tribunal of Inquiry into Payments to Politicians by Ben Dunne - the McCracken Tribunal.
1996: Hepatitis C scandal
1997–ongoing: Tribunal of Inquiry (Dunnes Payments) (follow-up), the Moriarty Tribunal
1997–ongoing: Tribunal of Inquiry into Certain Planning Matters and Payments, now known as The Mahon Tribunal
1999: Lindsay Tribunal to investigate the infection of haemophiliacs with HIV and Hepatitis C from contaminated blood products.
2002–2006: Tribunal of Inquiry into the siege and shooting of John Carthy in Abbeylara, County Longford, the Barr Tribunal
2002–ongoing: Tribunal of Inquiry into complaints concerning some Gardaí of the Donegal Division, the Morris Tribunal
2005–ongoing: Commission of Investigation: Dublin and Monaghan Bombings 1974 (Sole Member: Patrick MacEntee SC QC)