Irish abuse report is 'shocking'

[Daz]

BBC: Irish abuse report is “shocking”

An inquiry into abuse suffered by children in Catholic institutions in Ireland is “shocking reading” the country’s parliament has been told.

About 35,000 children were placed in a network of reformatories, industrial schools and workhouses up to the 1980s.

More than 2,000 told the Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse they suffered physical and sexual abuse while there.

The leader of Ireland’s Labour Party said the report contains accounts of children being flogged.

Eamon Gilmore told the Irish Parliament that the report will shock many people when it is published.

The Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen said: “We are all agreed that it is appalling the vista that will emerge in respect of a bygone day that is no longer with us, thankfully.”

The BBC’s Mark Simpson said the inquiry was expected to criticise the Church’s handling of sex abuse complaints.

The institutions housed abandoned or neglected children, but courts also sent those guilty of truancy and petty crime.

Unmarried mothers were also sent to institutions known as Magdalene Laundries, many by their own families.

Hundreds of the victims moved away from Ireland once they left the care homes and went to live in the UK.

Many of those who are alleged to have carried out the abuse are now dead

Apology

The commission was established in 2000 after the then Taoiseach Bertie Ahern issued an apology on behalf of the state to the victims of child abuse.

A government compensation scheme was also established. It has already paid out almost one billion euros in compensation and legal fees to 12,500 people.

Led by Mr Justice Sean Ryan, the commission’s report is believed to be five volumes and 2,500 pages long.

Thousands of abused men and women testified to the commission, which was set up after a television series revealed the scale of the abuse.

Journalist Mary Raftery, who was behind the series, said the extent and depravity of the abuse was “profoundly shocking”.

“It is off the scale in terms of anything we have any knowledge of or any ability to deal with, particularly, as it was perpetrated, in the main, by members of religious orders,” she said.

Ms Raftery said the children ended up in “houses of horror” and were essentially locked up until they were 16.

“They emerged deeply disturbed and damaged and so many of them immediately emigrated,” she said.

"They felt their country had abandoned them as well as everything else, as well as their religion, that just stripped them bare of any kind of support.

“It is an absolutely shameful episode in our history.”

The allegations include sexual abuse and repeated beating of boys and girls with a leather strap.

Some punishments were said to be handed out for talking at mealtimes or writing left handed.

More than 100 institutions run by religious orders have been examined and the inquiry is expected to produce specific findings against a number of facilities.

Another major report is due next month on abuse by Catholic priests working in parish churches around Dublin.

The Archbishop of Dublin, the Most Reverend Diarmuid Martin, warned last month that it would “shock us all.”

 

[kennewickmike]

With all the outside pressure’s making the Church look bad it is so sad when it shoots itself in the foot. We should pray for all those involved.

 

[ckempston]

BBC: Irish abuse report is “shocking”

An inquiry into abuse suffered by children in Catholic institutions in Ireland is “shocking reading” the country’s parliament has been told.

About 35,000 children were placed in a network of reformatories, industrial schools and workhouses up to the 1980s.

More than 2,000 told the Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse they suffered physical and sexual abuse while there.

The leader of Ireland’s Labour Party said the report contains accounts of children being flogged.

Eamon Gilmore told the Irish Parliament that the report will shock many people when it is published.

The Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen said: “We are all agreed that it is appalling the vista that will emerge in respect of a bygone day that is no longer with us, thankfully.”

The BBC’s Mark Simpson said the inquiry was expected to criticise the Church’s handling of sex abuse complaints.

The institutions housed abandoned or neglected children, but courts also sent those guilty of truancy and petty crime.

Unmarried mothers were also sent to institutions known as Magdalene Laundries, many by their own families.

Hundreds of the victims moved away from Ireland once they left the care homes and went to live in the UK.

Many of those who are alleged to have carried out the abuse are now dead

Apology

The commission was established in 2000 after the then Taoiseach Bertie Ahern issued an apology on behalf of the state to the victims of child abuse.

A government compensation scheme was also established. It has already paid out almost one billion euros in compensation and legal fees to 12,500 people.

Led by Mr Justice Sean Ryan, the commission’s report is believed to be five volumes and 2,500 pages long.

Thousands of abused men and women testified to the commission, which was set up after a television series revealed the scale of the abuse.

Journalist Mary Raftery, who was behind the series, said the extent and depravity of the abuse was “profoundly shocking”.

“It is off the scale in terms of anything we have any knowledge of or any ability to deal with, particularly, as it was perpetrated, in the main, by members of religious orders,” she said.

Ms Raftery said the children ended up in “houses of horror” and were essentially locked up until they were 16.

“They emerged deeply disturbed and damaged and so many of them immediately emigrated,” she said.

"They felt their country had abandoned them as well as everything else, as well as their religion, that just stripped them bare of any kind of support.

“It is an absolutely shameful episode in our history.”

The allegations include sexual abuse and repeated beating of boys and girls with a leather strap.

Some punishments were said to be handed out for talking at mealtimes or writing left handed.

More than 100 institutions run by religious orders have been examined and the inquiry is expected to produce specific findings against a number of facilities.

Another major report is due next month on abuse by Catholic priests working in parish churches around Dublin.

The Archbishop of Dublin, the Most Reverend Diarmuid Martin, warned last month that it would “shock us all.”

This isn’t shocking at all. Catholics often made these abuses out to be a mostly “American” problem, but everybody knows better. This sickness is going on in every country, whether first, second, or third world; it’s just a matter of the truth being revealed. I imagine most families are like one very close to me in which a Catholic priest acted improperly toward a boy several decades ago, but the family never made it public or confronted the matter, and the priest is, of course, still a priest. Even if the matter was confronted, the Bishop would have just moved the priest to another unsuspecting parish where he could prey on more boys.

“By their fruits will you know them.”

 

[Steeltemplar]

It is a tragic thing that any such abuses occurred. Yet I would also caution against accepting the “official” numbers as being the truth.

Ever since the beginning of the abuse scandals in the US, people have been lining up for pay-offs. There is little doubt that at least some of them are lying in order to make money. And it is probable that it is happening here as well.

 

[ckempston]

It is a tragic thing that any such abuses occurred. Yet I would also caution against accepting the “official” numbers as being the truth.

Ever since the beginning of the abuse scandals in the US, people have been lining up for pay-offs. There is little doubt that at least some of them are lying in order to make money. And it is probable that it is happening here as well.

Yeah right. For every money hungry welfare bum trying to line his pockets, there are probably 10 “good Catholics” who concealed the matter “for the good of the church.”

 

[Steeltemplar]

Yeah right. For every money hungry welfare bum trying to line his pockets, there are probably 10 “good Catholics” who concealed the matter “for the good of the church.”

That honestly does not make any sense. The good of the Church is served by making sure that abusive Priests (who do exist) are removed.

 

[ckempston]

That honestly does not make any sense. The good of the Church is served by making sure that abusive Priests (who do exist) are removed.

Tell that to the victims who remained silent for years because they thought it was the right thing to do. Do you think you’d be in your right mind if the man who was supposed to represent God himself sexually abused you? Of course it makes no sense.

 

[Steeltemplar]

Tell that to the victims who remained silent for years because they thought it was the right thing to do. Do you think you’d be in your right mind if the man who was supposed to represent God himself sexually abused you? Of course it makes no sense.

Obviously there are those cases. I thought you were referring to people who were not involved covering it up. Of course, that did happen also, but I think that most Catholics would have wanted to reveal the truth had they known.

The point of what I said earlier is that we should seek justice in all ways. We look for justice for those who have indeed been abused. But we must be just also to the Church and not simply accept all allegations a priori.

Innocent before proven guilty is a well accepted concept. It should apply in this case just as it does in any other.

 

[joeflow]

Regardless, it’s time to “clean house” so to speak. Every priest, bishop, and cardinal involved in abuse or covering up abuse needs to be removed from their position immediately. It’s time for the Church to do something drastic regarding this, something for the world to see. Otherwise, they are going to lose a lot of members who do not want to be complicit in supporting those who were a part of any abuse.

 

[Steeltemplar]

Regardless, it’s time to “clean house” so to speak. Every priest, bishop, and cardinal involved in abuse or covering up abuse needs to be removed from their position immediately. It’s time for the Church to do something drastic regarding this, something for the world to see. Otherwise, they are going to lose a lot of members who do not want to be complicit in supporting those who were a part of any abuse.

Yes, that is absolutely the case. The Church should deal as harshly as possible with anyone who is involved in such horrific abuses and, naturally, turn them over to the authorities.

The situation for those who are abused by someone in a place of religious trust is one which I feel deep sympathy for. I hope and pray that those who experience such things may find God despite the evil of mankind.

 

[Steeltemplar]

Do you think you’d be in your right mind if the man who was supposed to represent God himself sexually abused you?

I wanted to mention that this is a very good and powerful way to describe the incredible depravity of what has happened in the sexual abuse cases. The Priest does have that role of being in persona Christe and so for them to commit such an act is incomprehensible.

 

[Detales]

This news item is continuing support for the contention that religion and goodness have little if anything to do with each other, except by inept association. Yes, it is legitimate, worthy, and necessary to “seek” and worship God. However, it is plain to see that simply belonging to and “practicing” the way of the allegedly one, true, etc, church is as useful in terms of results as being anyone else. To know, Love, and serve God is definitly the highest intention on the surface, but historically, except for individuals who through arduous work broke through the appearance of the church, this has not been the case. Catholics have been “good,” or not, in exactly the same proportion as anyone else defined by nearly any other group criteria applyed to society in general, save perhaps prison populaions and terrorist groups. If the church was disbanded tomorrow, its former members would still, I am certain, be in exactly the same moral shoes they have worn so far, with or without the church. Does this say anything about the need to stop worshiping God in ignorance?

Goodness exists and is practiced and experienced on a far different axis than religion. It is, naturally, used by many as a form of explanation for their goodness, and of the invisible factors in life as well. We need to do something like that. But it is a huge mistake to believe that, even with its scholastically allegations of source and tradition, that the church as an institution is adequate in the work of informing its public in the ways of good, only in the ways of faith. It cannot be emphasised enough that these are two mutually exclusive areas and only appear to cover the same “ground.”

Most religionists of any stripe are so by habit and/or by birth. Precious few examine the origins of their faith, and even if they do, it is within the paramaters of that faith. That belief system, whatever denomination in the world it may be, has been emotionally and habitually inculcated since birth by practice and by sanctions. No wonder it appears as “natural” and the only “right” way. No other way is known! By the time questions might arrise, the only options are to conform, even if loosely and by tacit practice, or to reject. As one man said, “It is great luck for leaders that men don’t think.” *

An actual survey of how and why any religon or belief system is aquired, and the actual possibility of a right relationship with Deity, is not only beyond the abilty and, more importantly, the interest of the average practitioner, our very faith is actually the best prophylactic against self examination in this area. Therefore an honest, self respecting, genuine praxis that includes the foundations of human experience and its actual dynamics is, even in the face of emotionalally cathartic “faith” experiences, rare.

I have often recommended as a revitalization of one’s faith a list of authors that deal with the process of practical self examination. These, despite their ability to bring points of needful consideration before the reader in this vital matter, have been habitually rejected by this forum community on the grounds that the authors are not Catholic. Well, folks, electricity is not Catholic, and neither is gravity, and neither are a lot of other things, including how the mind works. I have yet to hear of a physiologist look at a number of brains on a table and distinguish which ones are former Catholics. This can be done with the brains of one, siingle, outstanding group, and that is musicians. Such a distinction on the basis of faith is impossible. It is said, however, that the musician phenomenon is attributable to the correlation of the laws of music with the laws of the Universe. That, additionally, might tell ussomething.

The historic and contemporary phenomenon of our and other churches displaying behavior that is far, far, far from commensurate to the law of Love could be used as a wake up call to go deeper than the faith we hold dear and believe, perhaps mistakenly, to be deep and complete. If men and women of the cloth, our leaders, are so continually fallible in their example of taking The Master’s ways into the world, is there not something here to look at, not in them, except as lessons in what not to do, but in each one of us, as to what is really the basis of actual, practical goodness, and not of simple blind faith. Really, if you were the one at the gate of heaven, and in charge of admissions, would you just let people in because of what they allegedly believed as a faith, or what they actually did that had the result of blessing lives?

*The man who said that about not thinking was Adolph Hitler.

 

[Steeltemplar]

Just to show that I am not making this idea up, here is an example of fraudulent claims:

independent.ie/national-news/i-forgive-you–priest-asks-court-to-show-mercy-on-his-accuser-858576.html

Fraudulent claims are not only injust to the Church and the people being accused. They also are an injustice and an insult to people who legitimately suffered from abuse.

 

[OriginalJS]

Isn’t the abuse of children in church run facilities in Ireland old news? I recall that several years ago there were movies about these abuses, the head of an order of nuns apologized, and I recall the Irish government making payouts to those who had been abused. I thought everybody knew about the maltreatment of children by the Christian Brothers (ironic name, hey!) in Ireland.

As to concerns about fraudulent claims, that’s what courts and tribunals are for. The fact there may be some fraud, doesn’t mean no claims should be allowed. Furthermore, the groups responsible set themselves up for claims in the first place. I don’t feel sorry for child abusers or those who abet or protect them.

 

[mrs_miggins]

Although sexual abuse is obviously, in any form at all, completely abhorrent and inexcusable I would like to make a little point here.

These claims, as I have heard them today on UK news, date back to the 1920’s. I don’t know what it was like in the US but here up until, I believe, the 1970’s corporal punishment was the done thing in schools. Children were caned, hit with a leather strap, had blackboard chalk and sometimes even the erasers (wooden ones!) thrown at them. Parents routinely disciplined their own with slippers and belts and it was a completely acceptable way of dealing with a errant child.

The claims I have heard today are unacceptable by today’s standards, and quite rightly so, but to make out that the Catholic Church was the ONLY authority to be doing this is disingenuous. (And I realise ‘2 wrongs don’t make a right’ but the point is that that was the way that society at that time expected you to discipline your child.)

Our news reports here have lead almost all day with this - although important it is not the only important thing going on. And I’d bet that many Church of England orphanages had the same problem, only its not as ‘sexy’ (for want of a better word) to report those - say the words ‘Catholic Church’ and ‘abuse’ together and watch your ratings soar.

 

[ckempston]

Obviously there are those cases. I thought you were referring to people who were not involved covering it up. Of course, that did happen also, but I think that most Catholics would have wanted to reveal the truth had they known.

The point of what I said earlier is that we should seek justice in all ways. We look for justice for those who have indeed been abused. But we must be just also to the Church and not simply accept all allegations a priori.

Innocent before proven guilty is a well accepted concept. It should apply in this case just as it does in any other.

You are in denial. Catholic Bishops moved paedophile priests around on unsuspecting parishes and abuse allegations seemed to follow certain priests in their travels. I suppose you’d have everyone believe that is just a coincidence.

 

[ckempston]

Although sexual abuse is obviously, in any form at all, completely abhorrent and inexcusable I would like to make a little point here.

These claims, as I have heard them today on UK news, date back to the 1920’s. I don’t know what it was like in the US but here up until, I believe, the 1970’s corporal punishment was the done thing in schools. Children were caned, hit with a leather strap, had blackboard chalk and sometimes even the erasers (wooden ones!) thrown at them. Parents routinely disciplined their own with slippers and belts and it was a completely acceptable way of dealing with a errant child.

The claims I have heard today are unacceptable by today’s standards, and quite rightly so, but to make out that the Catholic Church was the ONLY authority to be doing this is disingenuous. (And I realise ‘2 wrongs don’t make a right’ but the point is that that was the way that society at that time expected you to discipline your child.)

Our news reports here have lead almost all day with this - although important it is not the only important thing going on. And I’d bet that many Church of England orphanages had the same problem, only its not as ‘sexy’ (for want of a better word) to report those - say the words ‘Catholic Church’ and ‘abuse’ together and watch your ratings soar.

So, what you’re saying is that the Catholic church just goes along with whatever society is doing. Great point!

 

[Steeltemplar]

You are in denial. Catholic Bishops moved paedophile priests around on unsuspecting parishes and abuse allegations seemed to follow certain priests in their travels. I suppose you’d have everyone believe that is just a coincidence.

I am not denying that such things happened. If you read my post there, I said that they did occur. And I condemn the Bishops who either did this or allowed it to happen.

It should be recognized, though, that those Bishops acted against the Church’s teachings and without the consent of the Vatican. Had the Vatican known of what was happening, it would have been dealt with immediately. Indeed, the Vatican took the matter very seriously once it came to light.

 

[mrs_miggins]

So, what you’re saying is that the Catholic church just goes along with whatever society is doing. Great point!

No you are deliberately taking me out of context - I was merely trying to point out that you cannot use today’s ethics and moral arguments to put down what people did years ago. When I was young if I had done anything wrong at school and got the strap from the Headmaster I would have gone home and been given a hiding as well from my parents - because I had ‘obviously deserved it’. This is certainly not the way I raise my children and I am glad they no longer have this punishment in state schools. But that was the way it was done then and it is unfair to look back and judge harshly, looking through today’s eyes.

 

[Jon_Paul]

Personally, I will take this report with a pinch-of-salt… all to often these “official” reports are nothing but fluff to throw around.

Does every child that has had a cane taken to their backside the sufferer of abuse? Hell… most people will tell you giving an inerrant child a good talking-to is abuse. This report claims over 20,000 – some reports of which are coming from second-hand sources – persons suffered physical and sexual abuse. How many cases were sexual, and how many were physical, and what was the nature of this pshyical abuse?

By todays standards, most of what was going on in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s was abusive. Personally, I believe it is todays standards that are a little off base. And this is coming from a seventeen-year old.

I want to know more about what is actually in this report and how much we can take as fact.