Irish abuse report is 'shocking'

[Cinette]

Dear redrosetea :
I think I may be starting to see your point : you do not see a DIRECT link between pedophilia and priestly celibacy. I am not sure there is one either, at least not a direct one as in cause-and-effect. But I have been asking myself -no proof of that of course- if the fact that priests do not marry, is not considered an attractive shelter for a pedophile, a place where he thinks he might be invisible. It is only a thought that came to my mind. And the undeniable fact is that because when someone complained about abuse, the priest was mainly shuffled around to another parish was not, to a pedophile, something to be considered another attraction. Of course, I think those days of secrecy might be over, as abused people are getting more vocal and society is getting less and less accepting of these escapist behaviours. Just out of curiosity, is the Church doing something now to prevent those perverts from entering her as ministers of God ? and something like AA might be a model for supporting those who truly recognize their problem and want to be healed. I know that in Canada, at least, the priests who were sent to a monastery for penance for six months, almost all of them went back to their pedophilia.

Please see Post #177 where I posted a letter on celibacy by a Catholic Priest and you will get an idea how celibates regard their vocation.

Measures are being taken to ensure this kind of thing does not happen again for sure.

 

[Cinette]

The best place for a pedophile to hide is in marriage ,and having a family ,so he has victims to abuse anytime he wants, and this is what happens most of the time…They are married men, with families, and wives…Daddy is the number 1 culprit, and a male relative number 2

You have to remember these people don’t wear a sign saying I am a sexual predator…The church didn’t admit pedophiles knowingly and neither does any place else

There are many safeguards in place we didn’t have in the past starting in the seminaries…All people dealing with children in any form must be screened for a police record, and any acusations of sexual abuse must be reported to the police at once

In the past these men were sent ot a clinic or a Dr for treatment…When the Dr pronounced them cured they were moved…Now to be fair, this all happened decades ago, and there probably wasn’t much of a medical treatment plan or even that much known about this behavior…The Dr probably did think they were cured and the Bishop believed him

I am sure everyone would love a better way to screen for this, but without a police record there just isn’t much to go on, if they haven’t already offended

Hindsight is always 20/20 and in most cases they probably didn’t think these men would be repeat offenders…but it should have been handled better and I am sure all of us wished it had been…but this is ihow all places treated this behavior, it seems

If a boy had said his female teacher had seduced him, people would have probably said you lucky dog, I wish it would happen to me…Or don’t tell anyone just forget it, its over and done with

Society has never been perfect, so we will never have a perfect church or a perfect anything else either

We are in an era where things are brought to the surface and hopefully dealt with, but that doesn’t mean this stuff will be stamped out…I doubt we will ever have an end to sexual abusers any more than there will be an end to other crimes…We just have to be more aware and do a better job protecting children if we can

Your comments are fair and reasonable. Yes Priests can be scrutinised in the seminaries but what about married men? Look at that man from Austria who imprisoned his daughter for 26 years and she fathered 7 children by him? There was another guy in Italy and there are more all over the place.

Sometimes the wife knows and closes her eyes!!!

Terrible!

 

[juhothenero]

A bit about pedophilia:

"For example, the most cited survey of sexual problems among the Protestant clergy shows that 10 percent have been involved in sexual misconduct and “about two or three percent” are “pedophiles.” With regard to the “pedophile” problem, the figure for the Catholic clergy, drawn from the most authoritative studies, ranges between .2 percent to 1.7 percent. "

From: catholicleague.org/printer.php?p=rer&id=29

It seems that for pedophilia it doesn’t matter married or not. And the worse pedophile of all is a female, hence nobody really cares when a woman rapes a boy. It seems that catholic church is an easy target that everybody loves to attack though.

 

[JosieElaine]

Are redrosetea’s statistics correct ? Only 2% of priests are pedophiles ?
But since there are approximately 400,000 priests in the Church, that still makes 8000 pedophiles to deal with, a huge burden and not to be ignored.

 

[redrosetea]

Are redrosetea’s statistics correct ? Only 2% of priests are pedophiles ?
But since there are approximately 400,000 priests in the Church, that still makes 8000 pedophiles to deal with, a huge burden and not to be ignored.

What about the men that are protestant pastors…Take 2% of all Protestant pastors and how many is that?..Jus t what do you suggest can be done?

Take 2% of all the male population around the world and how many is that?

You are fixated on Catholic bashing and it isn’t very attractive behavior

 

[benedictus2]

Dear Benedictus 2 No, I wasn’t. I believe enforced celebacy is “one” of the probable causes of pedophilia but there are others, one being man’s sinful nature.

Well then I suggest you go back to the post I replied to. You were clearly stating that were it not for enforced celibacy there would be no paedophies among Catholic clergy. Take responsibility for what you write.

And the Apostle Paul said it was better to be married then to burn.

But it is clear that St Paul advocated celibacy. No one is forced to be celibate. When priests enter the priesthood they know what is involved.

Some priests are not made for celibacy, it would not be their choice if it was optional.

But these priests know that when they entered the priesthood that is a pre-requisite.

Some men are unable to be faithful to one woman, should we then advocate for polygamy as an option?

I was told that by some priests themselves. But if they want to be priests they are not given the choice. So they try to remain celibate. Some are able to keep their promise, some are not.

If they cannot be ceilbate there is always marriage and a whole heap of options to serve the church as lay people.

So because they are not able to keep their promise we should get rid of the discipline altogether? Some think it is okay to cheat on their wives. Since they cannot be faithful perhaps we should make swinging the mode in marriage?

For those who are not, I still believe it would be preferable for them to be married than to be pedophiles. Don’t you?

See! There you go again with that statement. As if paedophilia is a result of celibacy. Helllooo , where have you been? Married men commit paedophilia even on their own children!!

And the fact that they abuse children means that adult women is not the go for these men. Being married would be a mere cover up. They can easily cavort with full grown women but they choose children.

You’re reasoning is totally askew.

For those who are not able to be celiabate, then they should not have entered the priesthood in the first place. Those who can’t be faithfull to their wives should stir clear of marriage altogether as they only make a mockery of this sacrament.

 

[benedictus2]

Celibacy has nothing whatever to do with paedophilia. How about the many married men who are paedophiles??

Perhaps if this is said often enough, Josie Elaine will get the point.

 

[JosieElaine]

Dear redrosetea ; I am not fixated on Catholic bashing, you are attributing to me motives that you have no possible way of judging. I am heartbroken over the abuse of children, perpretated by whoever it may be. It is a stain on any church that harbours pedophiles, and the only solution I can possibly see is that the Lord comes to have enough of this stench and intervenes Himself. I am speaking here about Catholics because this is the title of the thread. Remember …

 

[AlexisLivia]

Are redrosetea’s statistics correct ? Only 2% of priests are pedophiles ?
But since there are approximately 400,000 priests in the Church, that still makes 8000 pedophiles to deal with, a huge burden and not to be ignored.

Yes! You must have missed my previous post quoting non-Catholic scholar Philip Jenkins:

"While the total number of sexual abusers in the priesthood is much higher than those guilty of pedophilia,** it still amounts to less than 2 percent — comparable to the rate among married men** (Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests).

And as for celibacy: "Celibacy bears no causal relation to any type of deviant sexual addiction including pedophilia. In fact, married men are just as likely as celibate priests to sexually abuse children (Jenkins, Priests and Pedophilia).

Furthermore, "Since neither being Catholic nor being celibate predisposes a person to develop pedophilia, a married clergy wouldn’t solve the problem (“Doctors call for pedophilia research,” The Hartford Currant, March 23). One has only to look at similar crises in other denominations and professions to see this.

So while we don’t want to ignore the Catholic priests who are pedophiles, we also shouldn’t want to ignore pedophiles among other clergy (including Baptist) and among the general population!

 

[Sonic]

So while we don’t want to ignore the Catholic priests who are pedophiles, we also shouldn’t want to ignore pedophiles among other clergy (including Baptist) and among the general population!

I agree… and I am certainly willing and committed to help non-Catholic prevent this sort of abuse from happening in their congregations or communities.

It may be that God wishes Catholics to spearhead the effort of solving the problem of pedophilia and abuse, and our efforts may end up benefiting society as a whole. Perhaps, that is why we are being hit so hard? It’s in order to keep us committed to defending the truth.

It’s easier for some to play the blame game and ignore the problems in their own houses: it’s much harder confront and fix them. It’s definitely a call from God to fix the problem effectively and as compassionately as possible.

 

[Archie]

This “new” story about the abuse of children in Catholic institutions in Ireland is not really new at all. Because of
the publication of the conclusions of the nine-year Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse, and Irish government investigation, this news story has again taken the general public’s attention.

I remember seeing on “Sixty Minutes” or possibly a PBS show in about 2000 or 2001 a story about this matter which was already a matter of investigation by the government. In the story on TV that I saw, there was a man taken from his parents in Ireleand when he was a young child. The custom was to send the children off to other countries where there were children’s “work houses” and similar institutions. The man was now living as an adult in Australia and an investigation located his real mother who was still living in Ireland. I believe the television show paid for the man’s plane fare and trip to meet his mother for the first time since he was a young child. They filmed the reunion and it was heart rending. I also remember talking about this story with family members way back then.

The abuse took place from the late 1800s throughout the 1900s until many of the institutions either closed or starkly changed their abusive practices in the 1990s.

---

I think it is important to mention the work of Kevin Annet of hiddenfromhistory.org/ . His award winning documentary that is viewable for free on his website tells of decades of “genocide” and abuse of every kind to “aboriginal” (American Indian) children who were taken in to Catholic childrens institutions in Canada throughout the 1900s. The numbers of killed and abused children is possible around 50,000, even more than the 30,000 Irish children.

---

Another fairly recent incident of a Catholic institution involved in questionable practices is what is called “The Franklin Coverup” and involves several boys and girls who were regularly allowed to be taken from Omaha Nebraska “Boys Town” . (Remember Spencer Tracy as Father Flanagan in “Boys Town” well known movie.)

State senator of Nebraska John DeCamp wrote a book and has even kept the book updated in later editions telling of his investigation into the scandal involving Lawrence King, a black man who was high up in the national Republican Party. Mr. King embezzled large sums of money from the Franlin Savings and Loan and would regularly have parties in Washington D.C. and other cities where he would provide children to be sexually abused at parties that were attended by top U.S. elected officials from the White House on down. In a documentary shown on American TV only one time, a reporter was shown approaching the door of Boys Town in Omaha and being gruffly turned away by someone who answered the door. The question remains why did the religious who operated Boys Town (which houses girls too) allow these children to continually be taken out and on trips to these parties by Mr. Franklin. Franklin spent about 10 years in prison but is out now and I understand living in Washington D.C.

---

I think that abuse of children is very widespread throughout all institutional for children, but the media will never cover the stories of Child Protective Services scandals in the states and juvenile corrections facilities in the states.

---

I must mention a book …

riteofsodomy.com/reviews/Former%20Priest%20defends%20Bernardin.htm

*The Rite of Sodomy – Homosexuality and the Roman Catholic Church *by Randy Engel

His website used to be www.amchurch.org but I think the website is now defunct. I heard Mr. Engel interview on RadioLiberty.com on two or three shows and Mr. Engel stated that there are only two seminaries in the whole of the USA that are not basically homosexual seminaries for homosexual priests. I think there is a strong correlation between pederasty / pedophilia and homosexual practice.

---

I only list these matters because they are of fairly recent origin and the Irish institutional abuse story is of long-standing and fits together with these other matters.

Christian values and Christian culture of western civilization has been destroyed from within. “The Catholic Church” has not been immune from that destruction.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

QUOTE=pnewton;5266039]I too read the report a while back and noticed the same thing. Nothing detracts from the real problem of child abuse as a broadening of the definition for the sake of building statistics. I also think it bears mentioning that the methodology recording complaints and provided anonymity.
There is there for no way of knowing how much is true and how much is lies motivated by less than pure motives.

In 2004 the Irish Christian Brothers successfully sued the Ryan commission to keep accused members unnamed in its report. Accordingly no priest or nun is named in the report and admissions made to the Commission cannot be used in evidence in criminal proceedings. Because of this, the victims and witnesses are also unnamed, the vast majority of them against their wishes.

For the last few weeks, we in Ireland have seen and heard many victims and witnesses tell their stories. We have seen real flesh-and-blood human beings, ordinary Irish men and women, in tremendous pain and anguish recall what happened to them as children. The one that will be forever seared in my memory was a man called Michael O’Brien. In the 1940s, he was one of eight siblings (one sister was just months old) who were taken from their family home and incarcerated. He ended up in St Joseph’s Industrial School in Clonmel, run by the Rosminian order, where he was sexually and physically abused. He appeared on the panel of an Irish TV program, Questions and Answers recently. This is what he had to say about his experience in St Joseph’s and about what happened when he appeared before the Ryan commission:

“I went to the commission and had seven barristers there questioning me, telling me that I was telling lies when I told them that I got raped of a Saturday, got an unmerciful beating after it and he then came along the following morning and put Holy Communion in my mouth…

“My God, seven barristers throwing questions at us non-stop. I attempted to commit suicide. They brought a man over from Rome, 90-odd years of age, to tell me I was telling lies and that I wasn’t beaten for an hour non-stop by two of them from head to toe without a shred of cloth on my body.

“For God’s sake, try to give us some peace and not continue hurting us…

No one listening to or seeing the ever-present pain of these victims could ever doubt the truth of what they say. Ordinary day-schools run by religious congregations in Ireland in the 1950s and 60s were no holiday camps - I know I attended a convent school for 14 years from the age of four. Corporal punishment was the order of the day, some children were ‘picked on’ more than others, public humiliation was a common tool for keeping children in line.

But the Ryan Commission wasn’t investigating corporal punishment, even the excessive use of it, in regular schools. It was investigating what happened in orphanages and special schools, in reformatories and industrial schools, where children from poor and broken families were placed by the State in the (as it turned out, forlorn) hope that the conditions of their lives would be improved. Many of the children who ended up in the reformatories and industrial schools had done nothing to merit it: in one case, a baby of just a few months old was brought before a local court, charged with an offence, convicted and ‘sentenced’ to 16 years in an industrial school. This was a mechanism by which many small children ended up in these institutions and, despite not having done anything wrong, they ended up with a criminal conviction for life

Tha last few weeks have been difficult for the Church in Ireland, but every week, every day, every hour, is difficult for those who have been abused and brutalised in Church-run institutions at the hands of those from whom they had every right to expect some care and compassion. Some on this thread and in blogs and opinion pieces have sought to minimise the extent and severity of what these children suffered, or to question the veracity of the testimony given to the Ryan Commission. No doubt they do so out of loyalty to, and in defence of, the Church, and I can understand that. But the Church in Ireland and the 18 congregations involved have now fully accepted that these terrible things happened and that their members were responsible.

Because the Ryan Commission was compelled to give the abusers anonymity in its report, it is difficult to pursue criminal prosecutions based on it. Last week the Christian Brothers in Ireland appealed for abusers to contact gardai and own up to their crimes:

“Any brother who has abused has a moral obligation to present themselves to the authorities and take responsibility for their actions…Perpetrators have a moral obligation to confess and account for their actions. This is essential to the healing process.”

 

[JosieElaine]

Hello, AlexisLivia :
Your information helps to put things into perspective. Sexual abuse of children is such an emotional topic.
A verse from the Bible came to mind when I read your post. Something like this : And I will start the cleaning by the house of God. Sorry, I forgot from which book. But it would validate your idea that maybe God wants the Catholic church to be instrumental in doing something to eradicate or at least diminish this horror from our society.

 

[St_Francis]

This “new” story about the abuse of children in Catholic institutions in Ireland is not really new at all. Because of
the publication of the conclusions of the nine-year Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse, and Irish government investigation, this news story has again taken the general public’s attention.

I remember seeing on “Sixty Minutes” or possibly a PBS show in about 2000 or 2001 a story about this matter which was already a matter of investigation by the government. In the story on TV that I saw, there was a man taken from his parents in Ireleand when he was a young child. The custom was to send the children off to other countries where there were children’s “work houses” and similar institutions. The man was now living as an adult in Australia and an investigation located his real mother who was still living in Ireland. I believe the television show paid for the man’s plane fare and trip to meet his mother for the first time since he was a young child. They filmed the reunion and it was heart rending. I also remember talking about this story with family members way back then.

The abuse took place from the late 1800s throughout the 1900s until many of the institutions either closed or starkly changed their abusive practices in the 1990s.

---

I think it is important to mention the work of Kevin Annet of hiddenfromhistory.org/ . His award winning documentary that is viewable for free on his website tells of decades of “genocide” and abuse of every kind to “aboriginal” (American Indian) children who were taken in to Catholic childrens institutions in Canada throughout the 1900s. The numbers of killed and abused children is possible around 50,000, even more than the 30,000 Irish children.

---

Another fairly recent incident of a Catholic institution involved in questionable practices is what is called “The Franklin Coverup” and involves several boys and girls who were regularly allowed to be taken from Omaha Nebraska “Boys Town” . (Remember Spencer Tracy as Father Flanagan in “Boys Town” well known movie.)

State senator of Nebraska John DeCamp wrote a book and has even kept the book updated in later editions telling of his investigation into the scandal involving Lawrence King, a black man who was high up in the national Republican Party. Mr. King embezzled large sums of money from the Franlin Savings and Loan and would regularly have parties in Washington D.C. and other cities where he would provide children to be sexually abused at parties that were attended by top U.S. elected officials from the White House on down. In a documentary shown on American TV only one time, a reporter was shown approaching the door of Boys Town in Omaha and being gruffly turned away by someone who answered the door. The question remains why did the religious who operated Boys Town (which houses girls too) allow these children to continually be taken out and on trips to these parties by Mr. Franklin. Franklin spent about 10 years in prison but is out now and I understand living in Washington D.C.

---

I think that abuse of children is very widespread throughout all institutional for children, but the media will never cover the stories of Child Protective Services scandals in the states and juvenile corrections facilities in the states.

---

I must mention a book …

riteofsodomy.com/reviews/Former%20Priest%20defends%20Bernardin.htm

*The Rite of Sodomy – Homosexuality and the Roman Catholic Church *by Randy Engel

His website used to be www.amchurch.org but I think the website is now defunct. I heard Mr. Engel interview on RadioLiberty.com on two or three shows and Mr. Engel stated that there are only two seminaries in the whole of the USA that are not basically homosexual seminaries for homosexual priests. I think there is a strong correlation between pederasty / pedophilia and homosexual practice.

---

I only list these matters because they are of fairly recent origin and the Irish institutional abuse story is of long-standing and fits together with these other matters.

Christian values and Christian culture of western civilization has been destroyed from within. “The Catholic Church” has not been immune from that destruction.

I haven’t found the source, but I heard that the Irish report boiled down to something like 190 male-oriented predators (child and adolescent), versus 14 female-oriented. This was over the entire span of the time of the report.

 

[Sonic]

I haven’t found the source, but I heard that the Irish report boiled down to something like 190 male-oriented predators (child and adolescent), versus 14 female-oriented. This was over the entire span of the time of the report.

Here it is along with some other sources that were posted earlier…

childabusecommission.com/rpt/

Other sources:
stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm (Baptist Church)
rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy292.html (Anglican Church in Australia)
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2497199.stm (Anglican Church in Canada)

I’m a little skeptical of the the sources presented in Archie’s post. Some of it doesn’t seem to apply to this topic, such as the Hidden from History website. I would need more precise citations before making a proper evaluation.

 

[Archie]

“I’m a little skeptical of the the sources presented in Archie’s post. Some of it doesn’t seem to apply to this topic, such as the Hidden from History website.”

The HiddenFromHistory documentary is the exact same situation as the Ireland matter so I certainly do not see how it does not apply to this topic. We are talking about the topic of Catholic institutions for children and the abuse experienced by the children in those institutions. The “church” has issued a formal apology for the Canada situation which went on for a longer period of time and affected more children, many of whom are dead victims. , thus admitting guilt, but no lawsuits have been prosecuted as in Ireland. A potestant “church of Canada” and the Canada government were also more formally involved in the Canada incident, though it was Catholic facilities where the majority of the extreme abuse took place. For some reason, Kevin Annet’s video and shocking subject receives little to no press.

I guess “indian” children are not considered as important as Irish children.

 

[JosieElaine]

The “Indian” children from Canada involved in the sexual abuse in the Catholic and Protestant institutions were, for the most part, not orphans at all. They were forcibly removed from their families around the age of six under the pretext that this was the only way to properly “civilize” them. They were promptly baptized, taught the religion of their abductors, beaten for speaking their mother tongue, etc., etc., and those that survived were returned to their parents at the age of 16, totally unable to fit in the native culture after 10 years of indoctrination into “civilization”. Hence, the extremely high incidence of suicide in the Canadian native population. This is my country, Canada, and I am deeply ashamed of this part of our history.

 

[Sonic]

I guess “indian” children are not considered as important as Irish children.

Now now… let’s not be that way. I have compassion for these people, too. After all, I did say… “I would need more precise citations before making a proper evaluation”.

My skepticism was based on the numbers you presented… 30,000 Irish children and 50,000 Native Children. These numbers seem very high at first glance, and overlooking the website… the scope of the incidents seem to deal with much more than just the incidents which occurred concerning the original topic. After all, the original topic is about incidents that happened within 20 schools and had nothing to do with the child’s ethnicity… nor was it an attempt to change their cultural identity. Some of the abuse was carried out (according to the report) by some of the children involved. The number of children involved was no where near 30,000.

This Canadian incidents… while related because of injustices… are a conjunction of many incidents that tragically led to what happened and have broader implications involving more than one group of people.

So, please… before you assume the worst… try to make better citations directly related to incidents in this topic to help us understand.

 

[benedictus2]

Dear redrosetea ; I am not fixated on Catholic bashing, you are attributing to me motives that you have no possible way of judging. I am heartbroken over the abuse of children, perpretated by whoever it may be. It is a stain on any church that harbours pedophiles, and the only solution I can possibly see is that the Lord comes to have enough of this stench and intervenes Himself. I am speaking here about Catholics because this is the title of the thread. Remember …

Why then your fixation with attributing paedophilia to celibacy when there are married protestant ministers who commited this crime as well?

 

[JosieElaine]

Dear benedictus 2 :
I am not attributing pedophilia to celibacy as in celibacy=pedophilia, I honestly did think it was one element in the equation, but not the only one. But I am beginning to change my mind, really. Cool off a bit, will you …