Irish abuse report is 'shocking'

[Cinette]

and those choices also created a climate for fraud. If the CC had not hidden what was going on, moved these offenders around like chess pieces and paid victims off-they wouldn’t have such a lack of credibility now.

I grieve for these victims, and for the good Priests and Sisters who get tarred with the large brush of “abuser” by an unthinking public.

I spent my entire childhood in Catholic school and never saw a child struck in anger.

I think that to feel the need to hide something that is not good and that would is scandalous is human. A woman or man cheating on their spouse would not want it known by one and all for instance and so on…

However, when abuse is committed by a priest who has taken sacred vows then it is something really terrible. I can understand that a Bishop might have thought that after of a period of prayer and reflection and counselling a priest who has been guilty of sexual abuse might be “reformed” and then be moved to another parish. I believe that society at large also did not have the knowledge we have today that paedophilia is incurable. I know that occurrence of paedophilia occurs in all parts of society and it is a curse.

As you say what happens is that all the many wonderful, holy and self-giving priests and clergy are then tarred with the same brush. It hurts. I also grew up in Catholic schools all my school life and never witnessed or heard even a rumour of abuse by the clergy. In all I attended 5 different schools in my primary years and one in my high school years - out of 6 institutions and was not aware of anything untoward ever!

 

[Kwashic]

But the point is, dear Kwashik, that in the 1940’s and 1950’, nobody believed you, not even your parents. The Catholic priest was a God and could do no wrong. And like I said, it was NOT a crime then, only a Sin. Nobody went to jail for a sin. Now, you can report them, but back then, it was hopeless.

I see Josie… Just that I dont understand how people allowed this to happen. Will we 50 years from now discover some foolishness about how we did things today? And if so… can we blame only the perpertrators? I think then society at large is to blame for allowing such to happen. Today i think we give too much power to political leaders who are chosen by the misled majority… should we change from voting to qualifications for presidents?

How did we create this impression that Catholic priests were like Gods. And I think the churches that constantly attack the Catholics for events of the 1920s must ask themselves if they wont realise 30 years on that they were just cults led by the nose ring, if their own ancestors were part of the misled few who took priests as gods. Mistakes of the past must be fixed not by pointing fingers, but by putting in place checks and balances that prevent the same ever happening. Saying the church is like this or that will not prevent the same not happening in other churches, where already we are beginning to hear of Pastors making every decision including when babies should be born.

If the Catholic church has had its fingers burnt by this, then maybe thats all the reason to go there, than where the same mistakes can be repeated by a somewhat sub-conscious society.

Just my opinion.

 

[Kwashic]

While these priests are sinners, I will not cast a single pebble their way, for I am no better. I may not be abusing anyone or such, but i too have my own battle against sin to fight, and i cant say i have won. Many will scream and shout about these evil deeds by these priests, but have their own terrible sins hidden, At least these bad priests heeded the call and preached the gospel some day, something i have never been able to do. May God forgive them for they know not what they do… and only by his mercy would i be able to even show up at the gates of heaven asking to be let in, with all the ‘better Christians’ who see us Catholics as unworthy and bad.
I must admit, I am no good christian…YET! I am still trying to achieve what many protestants see as a level i should ‘come up to’. In the mean time i ask for God’s mercy and patience with this unworthy soul.

 

[JosieElaine]

Dear Kwashik :
The Catholic Church has always taught that a priest is an “alter Christus”, another Christ. And from the encyclical “Lumen Gentium” I quote “virtute ac persona ipsius Christi”. The priest has the “power” to act with the “power” of Christ. The lust for power is the strongest lust in the created being . Remember Lucifer with his" I WILL". Man being sinful, it is a very small step from being told he has the power of Christ to “believing” he is some kind of God. Now, I know for sure the Church never said that a priest is God. But it was a fine line to cross, and many have crossed it. And with uneducated and gullible parishioners, in the past, it was relatively easy to exert this power and believe that one is above the law. And even today, Scott Hahn teaches that when a priest is ordained, something happened in his soul, that he is transformed into a new being, has attained a new level of evolution, is a different human being than the rest of us, he is nearer to God,etc.,etc. So, still this lust for power is put in front of his eyes. Must be very difficult to resist.
This is also why I believe that pedophilia is seen as a worse sin when it comes from a priest. When people believe you are almost God, it is quite a shock to learn that you are only a man after all.

 

[Cinette]

Dear Kwashik :
The Catholic Church has always taught that a priest is an “alter Christus”, another Christ. And from the encyclical “Lumen Gentium” I quote “virtute ac persona ipsius Christi”. The priest has the “power” to act with the “power” of Christ. The lust for power is the strongest lust in the created being . Remember Lucifer with his" I WILL". Man being sinful, it is a very small step from being told he has the power of Christ to “believing” he is some kind of God. Now, I know for sure the Church never said that a priest is God. But it was a fine line to cross, and many have crossed it. And with uneducated and gullible parishioners, in the past, it was relatively easy to exert this power and believe that one is above the law. And even today, Scott Hahn teaches that when a priest is ordained, something happened in his soul, that he is transformed into a new being, has attained a new level of evolution, is a different human being than the rest of us, he is nearer to God,etc.,etc. So, still this lust for power is put in front of his eyes. Must be very difficult to resist.
This is also why I believe that pedophilia is seen as a worse sin when it comes from a priest. When people believe you are almost God, it is quite a shock to learn that you are only a man after all.

We believe that priests are shepherds taking care of Christ’s sheep here on earth and, as such, they represent Christ on earth. This does not mean that we believe that “priests are almost God” as you put it. It is unworthy of you to say this.

Other than that I agree with you when you say “I believe that pedophilia is seen as a worse sin when it comes from a priest”. It is a huge abuse of power and I believe that the punishment for this is huge. It is a huge sin.

I hurt when I read of such scandals. I hurt for the victim who is betrayed and the pain he/she endures from the assault. I hurt also for other good and holy priests who are tarred by the same brush.

After all is said and done we see that these priests are not alone. So many men from different social strata and different professions: teachers, Scout leaders, Youth leaders - prominent people, are also paedophiles. It is a symptom of our sick and secular and God-less society. It is a symptom of the breakdown of the family. It is a symptom of single parenthood (it is not always the choice of women but sometimes forced by abandonment or death but no parent can always handle single parenthood - it is a trial).

Community is extremely important to the wellbeing of society. I could go on and on…

But please do not be judgemental - it is unworthy of you. It is a blemish on an otherwise very good post.

We are here to debate and exchange view, not to say hurtful things.

 

[JosieElaine]

Dear Ginette :
You know what you believe NOW.
I know what WE believed in the 1940-1950. We believed that the priest was “almost” God. We all went down on our knees when he entered our house. We kissed his hands. We knelt when we went to his office. We did what he told us to do. I did not say the Church teaches that. I said that is what WE believed. And that immense power we gave him may be one of the reasons for the abuse of power in the past. Were you there sixty years ago? I was and I know what most of us, uneducated and gullible, believed. And because we believed that then, it made for a more shocking reaction to the revelation of sexual abuse so many decades later.
I am not saying this to be hurtful. I am saying this to make the Catholics of today understand the Catholics of the past and realize that there is a difference between the two which may have , without our knowledge of course, encouraged sexual abuse then. " If you do not learn from the mistakes of the past, you are bound to repeat them"

 

[Cinette]

Dear Ginette :
You know what you believe NOW.
I know what WE believed in the 1940-1950. We believed that the priest was “almost” God. We all went down on our knees when he entered our house. We kissed his hands. We knelt when we went to his office. We did what he told us to do. I did not say the Church teaches that. I said that is what WE believed. And that immense power we gave him may be one of the reasons for the abuse of power in the past. Were you there sixty years ago? I was and I know what most of us, uneducated and gullible, believed. And because we believed that then, it made for a more shocking reaction to the revelation of sexual abuse so many decades later.
I am not saying this to be hurtful. I am saying this to make the Catholics of today understand the Catholics of the past and realize that there is a difference between the two which may have , without our knowledge of course, encouraged sexual abuse then. " If you do not learn from the mistakes of the past, you are bound to repeat them"

I have been around for a long time! LOL!

I have never heard of such behaviour to a priest. I have spent most of my life in Africa, was educated in Catholic boarding schools and have NEVER seen this kind of “adoration” towards a priest. It would be unheard of!

In fact, my Mother’s brother was a priest on the Island of Mauritius (where I was born) and he was a normal human being with a very good sense of humour. There was no adulation.

I am sorry to hear this and understand your point.

 

[JosieElaine]

Dear Ginette :
Thank you. Being believed takes away some of the hurt. It is not being believed that makes some of the abused people go up in arms, like not being believed is like a second abuse. Thank you.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Last Friday, Cardinal Sean Brady and Archbishop Diarmuid Martin met with Pope Benedict to brief him about the Ryan report.

From: irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0608/breaking33.htm :

Pope Benedict was “visibly upset” when he heard details contained in the Ryan report on abuse in State institutions run by religious orders, Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin said today.

Archbishop Martin and Catholic Primate Seán Brady were speaking after meeting bishops in Maynooth today in the wake of a meeting with the pope on Friday where they discussed the Ryan report with the pontiff…

In a statement to journalists after today’s meeting, Cardinal Brady said the Pope had "listened very carefully, very attentively, very sympathetically to what we had to say and he said in reply that this was a time for deep examination of life here in Ireland in the Church.

He said the Pope urged them to establish the truth of what has happened, ensure that justice is done for all, put in place the measures that will prevent these abuses happening again, with a view to healing for survivors.

Archbishop Martin said: “The Pope wrote his first encyclical about the love of God. He was very visibly upset, I would say, to hear of some of the things that are told in the Ryan report, how the children had suffered from the very opposite of an expression of the love of God.”

Meanwhile, Fr Vincent Twomey, a former student and long-time friend of Pope Benedict has offered this analysis:

Catholic theologian Fr Vincent Twomey has described as “monsters” and the “dregs of society” the religious who abused children in church-run institutions. Speaking yesterday on BBC Radio Ulster’s Sunday Sequence programme, Fr Twomey praised many other members of religious orders for caring for a country that had been abandoned by government for over 200 years.

The former professor of moral theology at the National University of Ireland described his reaction to the Ryan report as one of horror, and said it left him unable to sleep for some nights. Asking how it was possible that religious supposedly devoted to Christ and the care of children turned out to be such “monsters”, he suggested part of the problem came from the church’s failure to develop a self-critical, thinking Christianity.

Irish Catholicism was conformist, parochial and narrow-minded, he said, and it wasn’t open to the big questions. The religious were very devotional and emotional, but not generally intellectual. He said “a conformist, externally orientated, ritualistic practice grew up, which didn’t touch the heart”. Extract from: irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0608/1224248284736.html

 

[Don_Schneider]

“Irish Catholicism was conformist, parochial and narrow-minded, he said, and it wasn’t open to the big questions. The religious were very devotional and emotional, but not generally intellectual. He said “a conformist, externally orientated, ritualistic practice grew up, which didn’t touch the heart””

It seems to me that Catholic theologian Fr. Vincent Twomey has matters arse backwards. It is my distinct impression that sexual abuse of children, particularly of boys, only became rampant after Vatican II which was supposed to reform just what this priest decries about the state of the religion (and not just in Ireland) prior to then.

Prior to Vatican II, physical abuse of children was a much more serious problem. At that time, corporal punishment of children was generally accepted throughout society. The problem was, as indicated within my essay that I linked to on another note, that accepting corporal punishment in principal inevitably leads to excesses and injustices.

So must we choose between broken bones or sexual perversity?

 

[Yellow_Belle]

It seems to me that Catholic theologian Fr. Vincent Twomey has matters arse backwards. It is my distinct impression that sexual abuse of children, particularly of boys, only became rampant after Vatican II which was supposed to reform just what this priest decries about the state of the religion (and not just in Ireland) prior to then. QUOTE]

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Yellow Belle:

Thank you for the clarification.

Firstly, I just wanted to mention that I am half Irish and that I have always considered myself Irish, simply because I take after my late mother in just about every way, and my late father in just about none. My uncle (still alive but elderly) has long been active in Irish affairs and knew personally your illustrious “Dev.”

In Philadelphia, the Catholicism of my youth was dominated by the Irish clergy, and I would estimate that approximately 75% of my parish was either Irish or partially so (like myself). The impression of which I spoke came from my own experiences. As I have stated many times, even discussing sexual matters with kids was strictly taboo then. We had absolutely no sex education and no “facts of life” talks from our parents. Most of us hit puberty without having the faintest idea what was happening. (If any of my numerous friends had, believe me, I would have known too.)

I never heard any gossip whatsoever during those years prior to the “reforms” of Vatican II having been instituted in our archdiocese of any sort of sexual child abuse by the clergy (or anyone else for that matter).

You refer to priests who had been ordained prior to Vatican II who later were guilty of such despicable behavior. I do not doubt you. However, I must ask, did this degenerate behavior begin prior or subsequent to Vatican II in most cases?

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

You refer to priests who had been ordained prior to Vatican II who later were guilty of such despicable behavior. I do not doubt you. However, I must ask, did this degenerate behavior begin prior or subsequent to Vatican II in most cases? Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Hi Don greetings to another ‘Irish cousin’

I can only answer your question by referring to the time periods covered by the Ferns report and the Ryan report.

Ferns covered the period from the late 1950s to 2000, although some incidents reported occurred prior to that time period. As I said, almost all of the priests detailed in Ferns were ordained before 1964 (some in the 1940s and 50s) and their abusive behaviour very clearly began before Vatican II.

The Ryan report covers the period 1930-1970, but, again, some of the incidents occurred in the 1920s. Unlike Ferns, the Ryan report does not confine itself to investigating sexual abuse nor are all the abusers priests - brothers and nuns were responsible, too. But it is clear that sexual abuse was taking place throughout the entire period covered by the report, so, again, I would have to say that Vatican II was not a factor.

But I’m curious - why would you think it would be??

PS Apologies if I am less than coherent - it’s almost 1 am here and tiredness is beginning to overtake.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Yellow Belle:

Thanks again.

Like most traditionalists who have long decried what we view to have been the folly of Vatican II, I have always blamed it for a general loss of faith (and empty Masses, as opposed to the standing room only crowds of my boyhood days). Prior to Vatican II, most priests or lay brothers who might have harbored such unnatural urges would have kept them in check for fear of retribution. By retribution, I am referring to the eternal kind. That’s basically my reasoning, along with, as I said, my own experiences as a kid prior to Vat II. It’s possible that I simply lived in an aberrant environment. Philadelphia has always been among the more conservative of dioceses in our country.

However, if you have firm evidence that this perception is incorrect, then perhaps I am wrong. I always pride myself on being educable.

 

[ron77nyc]

It is also what the lawyer of an innocent man would say. How do you know the difference? Telepathy?

The names of the guilty are in the report but a deal has already been made to protect the abusers.

Protect the unborn but when they get here throw them to the wolves.

What’s up with that?

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Dear Yellow Belle:

Thanks again.

Like most traditionalists who have long decried what we view to have been the folly of Vatican II, I have always blamed it for a general loss of faith (and empty Masses, as opposed to the standing room only crowds of my boyhood days). Prior to Vatican II, most priests or lay brothers who might have harbored such unnatural urges would have kept them in check for fear of retribution. By retribution, I am referring to the eternal kind. That’s basically my reasoning, along with, as I said, my own experiences as a kid prior to Vat II. It’s possible that I simply lived in an aberrant environment. Philadelphia has always been among the more conservative of dioceses in our country.

However, if you have firm evidence that this perception is incorrect, then perhaps I am wrong. I always pride myself on being educable.

Thank you. I don’t think you lived in an aberrant environment. I also grew up in a very traditional culture, albeit in a different country, where Catholicism seemed to be the air we breathed and where our Church had a ‘special place’ in our Constitution. Ireland was a prime example of a confessional state. There was no such thing as sex education - it’s an old joke in Ireland that there was no sex here until the advent of TV in 1961. - and films, newspapers, books, magazines etc. were either heavily censored or never made it into our cinemas or into our homes.

I, too, would have expected that the fear of eternal damnation would have kept priests and religious with abusive tendencies - whose vocations were nurtured in the rigorous and traditional 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s - in check. However, I have to accept the evidence to the contrary. I knew some of the priests named in Ferns. One of them, long since deceased, was a senior priest in my parish in the early 1960s. There was nothing ‘different’ about him, he did not stand out from the other priests in the parish as someone to avoid or not to trust. Yet, even by that time he had a history of sexual abuse. He was an equal opportunities abuser, abusing both girls and boys, and he got away with it all his life, dying as a respected (if not especially liked because of his arrogance) parish priest. You can imagine the shock of all those in whose parishes he served when the truth about him (including his fathering a child on a young girl he had abused from an early age) was revealed.

The point I’m making is that the cultures and Catholicism we grew up in were probably not all that different. No one knew about clerical sex abusers, I doubt if anyone could even imagine that such a thing existed. I know I didn’t. But we were wrong. One may blame Vatican II for many things but clerical sex abuse is not one of them.

 

[Cinette]

The talk of the scandal in Ireland has affected everybody. It is shocking, especially when the perpetrators are people of God. The people we trust with our children.

My first reaction was how could this happen! I imagined the pain of the children and how I would have reacted. Then I thought of all the good priests and religious I knew throughout my childhood and how they were incapable of inflicting such pain. The nuns at the boarding schools I attended (in the 50s) were strict but fair and very loving – always. They put up with our nonsense and had a good sense of humour. Although I am in Africa most of the nuns (about 90%) were Irish and their memory remains with me to this day. I have a special feeling for the Irish people – in fact, I joke that I have an Irish rib!

My husband spoke of the teachers at his school and how some had a reputation for wielding a nasty stick and were not afraid to use it. One thinks of Charles Dickens and the cruelty in those days. Tom Brown’s school days was a film that showed the abuse of children by other children. Even today this happens where children are teased and sometimes driven to suicide by their fellow school mates. Right now there is a case in the courts here in South Africa relating to abuse in “initiation ceremonies” at a school. I have seen on the Oprah show (don’t watch Oprah anymore) cases of abuse.

Children have endured these abuses for many, many years. I sometimes wonder if my Mother had not experienced such abuse herself because she was always warning us of strange men and to steer clear of them. Not to talk to anyone. I thought she was being paranoid! Now I think back and wonder. When I was a little girl the son of a couple friendly with my parents gave me a piggy back and started touching and I wiggled off his back and ran to my Mother. I refused to talk to him. Some years later I saw him on a buss and my heart beat fast and I immediately got off the buss.

I think that my Mother’s constant warnings helped me to be bold. Sometimes children are approached by people they know and love and feel too embarrassed to react. Statistics show that it is usually someone like close to the family who is responsible for sexual abuse.

One of my cousins lost her Mother to cancer and an aunt of ours took her and her sister while an uncle took the two boys. My aunt had 7 children but was severe and abusive to my cousin. She locked her up in a room (under the house) for a month because her marks at school were not very good. My cousin was messed up and this affected her life later. My father used to boast that her sister was strict “a bar of iron” he used to say. I have another cousin whose father (for a reason I have long since forgotten) refused to speak to him from the age of 8 and it was only when he was 22 that he began to talk to his son again!! Strange but true.

I am very glad that it is all coming out in the open and I hope parents will warn their children. We often read in the newspapers of stepfathers or boyfriends of the Mother who do these things and often the Mother does nothing even though she knows.

When it is a priest then it is the worst of all. We are soon going to enter into the “Year of the Priest” and hope this will cause a lot of reflection. I have watched some programmes on EWTN and it appears that seminaries are filling up in America with a new breed of priests. I think we should always pray for priests and offer them our support.

We should always bear in mind that the devil is always lurking and tries to lure good people.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Yellow Belle:

You said:

“The point I’m making is that the cultures and Catholicism we grew up in were probably not all that different. No one knew about clerical sex abusers, I doubt if anyone could even imagine that such a thing existed. I know I didn’t. But we were wrong. One may blame Vatican II for many things but clerical sex abuse is not one of them.”

This is exactly right. If you have five to ten minutes sometime, please read my current essay regarding this point:

wwwdnschneidercom.xbuild.com/#/miscellaneous-31/4534015510

You are obviously most intelligent and seem most perceptive as well. What is your theory concerning why a man or woman who ostensibly devotes his or her entire life to God would act is such an incongruous way? My theory is that this is not a case of people putting on fronts and trying to get access to children in what appears to be a natural and respected manner. I think through some psychological mechanism they manage to departmentalize their minds, separating what they say (and even truly believe) and how they act. What I mean is that they may actually inwardly rage at other child abusers while abusing kids themselves. This transcends mere hypocrisy. It almost borders on Multiple Personality Syndrome.

The maternal side of my family came from Mayo, sure ‘n’ enough, where “No good wind ever blows.” As I’m sure you know, that benevolent limey Cromwell once said: “The Irish can go to Hell or go to Connaught.”

An old joke used to be that Ireland’s leading export was Irishmen. There are more Irishmen in NYC than in Dublin. My people were typical refugees from the potato “famine.” The Irish prospered here. It was said that something in Ireland must have been missing from their diet; namely, food! It was a matter of emigrating or dying, as “taking the soup” was out of the question. God, I admire the faith people had in those days.

I often wondered how the Irish who remained weathered the storm. Do you know how your ancestors did during that tragic period of time?

I told you that I take after my mom in every way and my German father in almost none. That includes in appearance. I have a website devoted to school bullying. While searching for articles on the subject to link to, I came across an article from an Irish online news publication concerning school bullying in Ireland.

I linked to it but unfortunately the article itself is now down, though for some reason the photograph of the two kids they had used for models remains up. Except for his hair style due to time period differences, the kid in front (being taunted) could have been a dead ringer for me at his age. If my short story ever gets made into a TV film, I wish this kid could play the part:

images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26ni%3D20%26va%3Dschool%2Bbullying%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501%26xargs%3D0%26pstart%3D1%26b%3D741&w=240&h=160&imgurl=www.irishhealth.com%2Fcontent%2Fimage%2F11125%2Fimage001.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishhealth.com%2F%3Flevel%3D4%26amp%3Bid%3D11125&size=5.3kB&name=image001.jpg&p=school+bullying&type=JPG&oid=52ac2a49f5032b38&no=742&sigr=11gvb3dmn&sigi=11kl6sskq&sigb=13ppah09u&tt=10883

Maybe we’re distant cousins!

Best regards,

Don

 

[Yellow_Belle]

What is your theory concerning why a man or woman who ostensibly devotes his or her entire life to God would act is such an incongruous way?

Don, the question of why a priest or religious, whose life is, by definition, devoted to God, could abuse a child physically or (more especially) sexually and still live as a priest or religious, is one I’m sure very many people here in Ireland and elsewhere have been asking themselves since these scandals first became public. I agree with you that compartmentalisation may have been a way of coping with the apparent double life that these abusers lived, but I don’t think it addresses the ‘why’ of it all. Can you give me a day or two to gather my thoughts about it and I will PM you so as not to derail the thread?

I often wondered how the Irish who remained weathered the storm. Do you know how your ancestors did during that tragic period of time?

 

[Cinette]

Don, the question of why a priest or religious, whose life is, by definition, devoted to God, could abuse a child physically or (more especially) sexually and still live as a priest or religious, is one I’m sure very many people here in Ireland and elsewhere have been asking themselves since these scandals first became public. I agree with you that compartmentalisation may have been a way of coping with the apparent double life that these abusers lived, but I don’t think it addresses the ‘why’ of it all. Can you give me a day or two to gather my thoughts about it and I will PM you so as not to derail the thread?