(Irish) Archbishop urges lapsed Catholics to leave the faith

  • Thread starter Thread starter markomalley
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
followingtheway said:
I agree, we don’t want people to leave the faith, that’s the whole reason we don’t like them being lapsed either!
Click to expand...
Who said: “A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench”.
Irish Bishops are used to full crowds.
Maybe they’ll have to learn about preaching in the desert…
 
saveusfromhell said:
lapsed catholics recieving holy communion has many problems on various levels.
from our view point they who recieve, Jesus in the eucharist, that are not in good standing, draw judgement on themselves. i think one saint compared it to the crowd who shouted cruify him on good friday.
even if they don’t believe this, out of common decency for us, who do, they should abstain from recieving what we believe to be our God. in the eucharist

also comming into a church to baptise your children as catholics and promising to bring the child up as a catholic is froth with danger for them come judgement day.
many now say i’m a catholic who doesn’t believe. this has an effect on the practising catholics. who wonder why do i still believe when everyone i went to school grew up with and so on think its a fariy story.

so no i think the archbishop called it right
Click to expand...
The bishop called it wrong.
Who is to judge if they are in sin or not?
What happened for the people to behave in auch a way?
Was everybody’s fault?
Who is to judge whether the person who is going to communion is in sin?
Are bishops sinless?
Better bring the lost sheep in than expelling the ones who are one foot in one foot out…
 
Yellow_Belle said:
And there are practical issues: for example, the Church controls 90% of the primary schools here despite the fact that they are state funded, state administered and the state pays the teachers’ salaries. Yet those children with a Catholic baptismal certificate are given preference on enrolment. Why wouldn’t non-believer/non-practising parents have their children baptised when their access to primary education virtually depends on it?
Click to expand...
hogwash you must be thinking of a long gone ireland .
 
markomalley said:
An example of why His Excellency might be right is in the “womanpriest” article also at the top of “Catholic News”:

If one leaves, one cannot effect change. So we’re pushing boundaries

While I think the Archbishop is primarily talking about Christmas/Easter/Baptism/Funeral - type Catholics, he could also be talking about people who don’t form their consciences. While in some cases, it is just neglect, there is a distinct population, like the woman who made the comment quoted above, who simply wish to destroy the Church from within. Yes, it would be far better for heretics like her to simply leave.
Click to expand...
No. that is theater…
 
Pfaffenhoffen said:
The bishop called it wrong.
Who is to judge if they are in sin or not?
What happened for the people to behave in auch a way?
Was everybody’s fault?
Who is to judge whether the person who is going to communion is in sin?
Are bishops sinless?
QUOTE]

your post is not that clear but
Who is to judge if they are in sin or not?
Click to expand...
again your missing the theme of the artilcle
[QUOTEBetter bring the lost sheep in than expelling the ones who are one foot in one foot out…[/]
same as the last few answers and no difference between these 2 groups both need 2 repent to avoid hell.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]
 
Pfaffenhoffen said:
The bishop called it wrong.
Who is to judge if they are in sin or not?
What happened for the people to behave in auch a way?
Was everybody’s fault?
Who is to judge whether the person who is going to communion is in sin?
Are bishops sinless?
Better bring the lost sheep in than expelling the ones who are one foot in one foot out…
Click to expand...
they know themselves if they are in motal sin.
nobody can blame someone else for their sins.
you say who is to judge if they are in sin are not (missing the point) then go on and infere that the bishop is in sin.
people who call themselves catholics yet half believe do untold damage to the faith.
 
Yellow_Belle said:
The Archbishop appears to be asking those who have ‘informally’ defected to ‘leave the faith’. But how are they practically to do that in the current situation in Ireland? It is very difficult to be anything other than culturally Catholic here. Catholicism pervades our history, our folklore, our place names, our landscape, our music, our language. Our Catholic parishes are the basis for the vast majority of our schools, local organisations, and sports clubs. The Angelus is still rung twice daily on state TV and radio. State radio and tv broadcasts Mass on Sundays and all the ceremonies at Easter and Christmas. I could go on, but you get the picture.

And there are practical issues: for example, the Church controls 90% of the primary schools here despite the fact that they are state funded, state administered and the state pays the teachers’ salaries. Yet those children with a Catholic baptismal certificate are given preference on enrolment. Why wouldn’t non-believer/non-practising parents have their children baptised when their access to primary education virtually depends on it?
Click to expand...
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

time warp. it’s hard to take some posts seriously
 
As someone who is not a believer, but was once a Catholic, I get what the Archbishop is saying. Those of us who are clear and open about our lack of belief are often a bit troubled by those we know who agree with us but who still participate to some extent in the Church.

On the other hand, many of us raised as Catholics still like many things about the Church and its communities, and see ourselves as part of that. A solution may be for the Church to think through ways of remaining in contact with people who have left, but without insisting on a full return to membership.

For example, if I wanted to have a non-religious funeral in the parish Church I attended throughout by childhood and youth and into adulthood, i do no think that would be allowed. But if it were, it would enable my family and I to be both honest (about me being a notorious apostate I mean) and at the same time recognising my links to, and affection for, the Church.

Similarly, I would be a lot more likely to take part in activities for former students of my high school if they were not so religious, and operated on the assumption that if you are not willing to be a practising Catholic you somehow didn’t go to the school! Another idea might be to hold Christmas and Easter services that were not Masses but allowed wider, and honest participation by those still interested, but no longer full members. I am not suggesting that Catholics attenuate their faith or its expression. I am suggestion new ways of dealing with the wider community of people who have some identification with the Church, but who reject all or part of its teaching.

PS I am not sure if I am really a ‘notorious’ apostate, since these forums are the only place I go on about my lack of belief. Maybe I am just an apostate.
 
markomalley said:
Per the Irish Independent: (H/T to Deacon Greg Kendra):
The Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, has urged the country’s lapsed Catholics to have the maturity to leave the church.

Over the past two decades, rising numbers of ‘a la carte’ Catholics simply turn up at the altar for the sacraments like baptism, communion and marriage.

But in a new documentary on the future of the church, priests reveal they will expect a firmer commitment from their flock in the future. It shows how church pews swell to almost full capacity for celebratory sacraments, while Sunday services have dwindling numbers.

Archbishop Martin urged non-believers to walk away from the church.
An interesting approach.

Thoughts? (Remember this is an archbishop of the Church, so be respectful, particularly if you don’t agree with him)
Click to expand...
I’m not sure I agree with the Archbishop’s approach, but I can certain agree with his intention. He is, after all, calling for believers to have a mature faith or admit that they have no faith at all. Christianity should not be a hobby or something one practices only at Christmas. It is a committed way of life which challenges us to daily conversion. Those who remain “Catholic” when they clearly aren’t do themselves harm. I applaud the Archbishop for reminding us of what it truly means to live our faith, though, as I say, I’m not sure I agree with his approach.
 
The situation in Ireland is unique. 80% of the primary schools are Catholic. Parents are compelled to present their children for Baptism and other sacraments in order to gain admission to school.

I suspect that the Bishop feels frustration at those who make vows and promises during Sacraments, fully knowing that they do not intend to honor them. Most of the country is Baptized Catholic. Whether or not they are practicing their faith, the children receive the sacraments only to meet the school admission requirements.

Many Irish Catholics participate in the Sacraments as a cultural thing, as opposed to one of faith. The Bishop is urging non-practicing Catholics to refrain from Sacraments.
 
Yellow_Belle said:
I think you are missing the point. The process of formal defection from the Catholic Church no longer pertains and this is universal for the Church. There remains informal defection and notorious or public defection (through publicly declared heresy or apostasy)

The problem with informal defection is obvious: there is no formal record of a person’s defection, it is practically unenforceable and a person can still avail of the privileges of being Catholic (including the sacraments and a Catholic funeral, and in Ireland having your child enrolled in most schools).

The problem with notorious defection (at least in Ireland) is that those who ‘leave’ the Church rarely leave for another faith/denomination/religion, and even more rarely are they public heretics (in the generally accepted view of heretic).
Click to expand...
The issue is that the public guidance is still out there from the Vatican. The document is still published by the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts and there is no rescission published. The Motu Proprio that changed canon law did not state that one could no longer formally defect from the Church, it merely changed any advantage that such a defection would bring in regards to marriage. Somebody could still have such antipathy that they would insist upon breaking all ties with the Church (even though, sacramentally, it is nonsensical and, after 2009, canonically, it is of no effect).

In fact, the presentation of the Motu Proprio acknowledged that there is still a concept of formal abandonment: Dall’entrata in vigore del nuovo Motu proprio, quindi, il can. 11 del Codice di Diritto Canonico riacquista vigore pieno per quanto riguarda il contenuto dei canoni ora modificati, anche nei casi in cui sia avvenuto un abbandono formale.

This is the reason why I would like to see something a little more authoritative than a small note on a single Archdiocesan website before I disregard information that has been published by the Holy See.

Do you know of any publicly accessible document from the Vatican that rescinds the 2006 document linked above? Even a press release from their Press Office?

If you do, so be it. I will be more than happy to admit error. If not, then I’ve got to go with the information I can see rather than hearsay from a third party.
 
I reread the start of the thread a few times. It seems to me that the reference to “lapsed Catholics” as used there means Catholics who don’t come to Mass except for the special occasions and certain sacraments. Everybody knows “Christmas and Easter” Catholics. The mention of a “firmer commitment” is a subtext for more financial commitment. I have heard at least one parish priest complain about an ethnic group that claims to be Catholic but furnishes no regular support at all.

The problem of “Cafeteria Catholics,” of which there seem to be many seems outside the archbishop’s immediate concern. Those Catholics can be at least approached but only if they come to Mass and enhance the effect of church teachings in their life. Coming once or twice a year won’t suffice.

Suggesting that certain sinners leave the Church (users of birth control, etc.) is not made. Ejecting all sinners from the Church would effective end it since all have sinned.
 
mark o'malley said:
Per the Irish Independent: (H/T to Deacon Greg Kendra):
The Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, has urged the country’s lapsed Catholics to have the maturity to leave the church.

Over the past two decades, rising numbers of ‘a la carte’ Catholics simply turn up at the altar for the sacraments like baptism, communion and marriage.

But in a new documentary on the future of the church, priests reveal they will expect a firmer commitment from their flock in the future. It shows how church pews swell to almost full capacity for celebratory sacraments, while Sunday services have dwindling numbers.

Archbishop Martin urged non-believers to walk away from the church.
An interesting approach.

Thoughts? (Remember this is an archbishop of the Church, so be respectful, particularly if you don’t agree with him)
Click to expand...
Guess I’m a little taken back to hear a respected Archbishop come out with a strong statement urging some Catholics to leave due to their lack of Faith and devotion to their religion.

I see a lot of C and E people during the liturgical year. One parish priest I heard say in the sacristy say let God do as He wills with such people. God never turns a blind eye or ear.
Hopefully these Prodigal Sons and Daughters will return to the fold one day. We should truly pray for them not wash our hands of them.
 
Pfaffenhoffen said:
markomalley;8682186:
An example of why His Excellency might be right is in the “womanpriest” article also at the top of “Catholic News”:
If one leaves, one cannot effect change. So we’re pushing boundaries

While I think the Archbishop is primarily talking about Christmas/Easter/Baptism/Funeral - type Catholics, he could also be talking about people who don’t form their consciences. While in some cases, it is just neglect, there is a distinct population, like the woman who made the comment quoted above, who simply wish to destroy the Church from within. Yes, it would be far better for heretics like her to simply leave.
Click to expand...
No. that is theater…
Click to expand...
Not theater at all – it is a strategy that has been successfully employed by dissidents. For instance, radical feminist, Rosemary Ruether, when she gave a keynote address to the infamous Chicago Call to Action, has been quoted as saying “agencies of the spiritual revolution must remember unless we manage to insert what we are doing back into the main institutional vehicles of ministry and community, it will have no lasting impact.” This quote was published in a Jesuit journal (I have no link.) She was also quoted as saying “Roman Catholicism goes along the same as ever when dissatisfied people leave it, happily relieved of their critical presence.”
 
I live in the USA, and most churches are not full weekend after weekend for Mass. I only see most (or all) seats/pews filled if its for Christmas, Easter, or someone getting a sacrament like Baptism, etc. It would be nice to see more people at Mass for more than just a special occasion. I am sure it is the same in other nations too.

I admit I was lapsed for a while but returned, I went to Confession, and went back to practicing my faith now even better before my short period of not going to Mass, etc as I should have. I know not all will take their faith seriously but at least they should be obeying the basic precepts of the church: Mass attendance on Sunday & holy days, supporting their pastor and church financially to the best of their ability, Confession at at least once a year, receiving Communion during Eastertide at least 1 time, and obeying the marriage laws of the Church.

I pray for people like my father, sister, other family members and others I may not know who are fallen away from the Church. I cannot force them to go to Mass and get the Sacraments. They will make their own choices. I have made mine to not fall away again.
 
Hokomai said:
On the other hand, many of us raised as Catholics still like many things about the Church and its communities, and see ourselves as part of that. A solution may be for the Church to think through ways of remaining in contact with people who have left, but without insisting on a full return to membership.

For example, if I wanted to have a non-religious funeral in the parish Church I attended throughout by childhood and youth and into adulthood, i do no think that would be allowed. But if it were, it would enable my family and I to be both honest (about me being a notorious apostate I mean) and at the same time recognising my links to, and affection for, the Church.

Similarly, I would be a lot more likely to take part in activities for former students of my high school if they were not so religious, and operated on the assumption that if you are not willing to be a practising Catholic you somehow didn’t go to the school! Another idea might be to hold Christmas and Easter services that were not Masses but allowed wider, and honest participation by those still interested, but no longer full members. I am not suggesting that Catholics attenuate their faith or its expression. I am suggestion new ways of dealing with the wider community of people who have some identification with the Church, but who reject all or part of its teaching.

PS I am not sure if I am really a ‘notorious’ apostate, since these forums are the only place I go on about my lack of belief. Maybe I am just an apostate.
Click to expand...
I would say the reason you feel a connection to the Catholic church and its members is because you’ve been baptized and whether you admit it or not, you’re still feeling the effects of this on your soul. The Church is a community. It’s a community with Jesus at the center and that’s what draws us all together.
Your suggestion for Christmas and Easter “services” are already practiced in non-denominational churches where you can believe pretty much whatever you like.
 
Tsuwano said:
I’m not sure I agree with the Archbishop’s approach, but I can certain agree with his intention. He is, after all, calling for believers to have a mature faith or admit that they have no faith at all. Christianity should not be a hobby or something one practices only at Christmas. It is a committed way of life which challenges us to daily conversion. Those who remain “Catholic” when they clearly aren’t do themselves harm. I applaud the Archbishop for reminding us of what it truly means to live our faith, though, as I say, I’m not sure I agree with his approach.
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t assume a believer has “no faith at all”.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top