(Irish) Archbishop urges lapsed Catholics to leave the faith

[CMatt25]

A similar thread was closed on World and we were directed to post on this one instead.
It never ceases to amaze me when I see Catholics tell other Catholics they are not Catholic enough to identify themselves as Catholic or “to leave” when at the same time teaching is that a Catholic becomes a member of the Catholic Church by Baptism which imparts an indelible, permanent character upon one’s soul. To me Catholics who do this appear themselves not to be following teaching. I think what they mean is someone might not be a practicing or faithful Catholic but they make it sound as if they are not a Catholic and should leave.

Yet the truth is Baptism makes one a Catholic and they have the right to call themselves a Catholic at least according to the Church. It might not make them a practicing Catholic but it is also not the same as calling themselves a horse. The Church Herself considers them Catholics. If the Church doesn’t want a lapsed Catholic to be a Catholic, albeit a non practicing one, and wants them to leave the Church, maybe She should change her definition of who is a Catholic and no longer claim them as such.

But pushing Catholics away in this manner has the potential to severely discourage them and push them even further away. In the case of the Catholics the archbishop is talking about, they might never return to even attending Mass. As I see it, not a good way to get them to ever return to the practice

 

[kama3]

Perhaps he hopes to purge the Church of those who do damage from the inside - the “I’m a Catholic, but…” brigade, of which I used to be a member - as in “I’m a Catholic but I don’t believe in contraception, I don’t go to Confession, etc., etc.”

Honestly, I just cannot understand this idea.

First off, how the dissenters are supposed to be damaging the Church? It’s a hierachical church, and the laity has no say on doctrinal matters. So even if 100% percent of laity is pro-choice, the teaching isn’t going to change one bit.

Second, as evidenced by threads on this very forum, the Church doctrine is so vast and complicated that virtually everyone is bound to disagree with something. Problem is, that each person disagrees with something else, thus the dissenters have little in common – except for being dissenters. To give you an example: suppose that person A disagrees about abortion, person B disagrees about contraceptives and person C disagrees about Just War theory. But each of these persons agrees with the Church on two other matters, thus everyone is in minority on the issue they disagree with. But by using that logic, everyone should be kicked out.

Third, dissent is good, because it demonstrates that the faithful are capable of thinking for themselves (even though they may end up being misguided). Lack of dissent is characteristic for cults.

Fourth, if some bishop (not necessarily the one in question; I’m speaking in general here) is willing to get rid of dissenters, than it means he does not want to engage them. That suggests either that he is either unable to win the argument (which means he is theologically or intellectually inferior to them, thus unfit for the job) or unwilling to start an argument (which means he is too lazy for the job) or he recognizes that his position is weak and wants to avoid embarassment (which means that the dissenters are right). The call to get rid of dissenters thus suggests willingness to use an “easy-out” option – which can be a sign of deeper, underlying problems. It’s just shooting the messenger. Or calling for a schizm, which is near-impossible to fix.

That’s not to say that bishop should be unable to excommunicate people. Quite the contrary; if he sees that dissenters pose an organized threat to the church, then issue a formal anathema and kick them out. But asking people to quit on them own is just… cheap.

Fifth, Jesus said he came for the sinners, not for the faithful. Thus the idea that one should abandon preaching the sinners and focus on the faithful is deeply un-Christian. The faithful will do fine on their own.

 

[CMatt25]

That’s not to say that bishop should be unable to excommunicate people. Quite the contrary; if he sees that dissenters pose an organized threat to the church, then issue a formal anathema and kick them out.

Except even excommunicated Catholics are also still considered Catholics by the Church. They are told they can not partake in Communion or any of the Sacraments short of reconciliation and are not allowed to hold positions in a parish. But they can attend Mass for instance. And can also have the excommunication lifted and be reconciled back into full communion.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=567871

 

[Tigg]

Except even excommunicated Catholics are also still considered Catholics by the Church. They are told they can not partake in Communion or any of the Sacraments short of reconciliation and are not allowed to hold positions in a parish. But they can attend Mass for instance. And can also have the excommunication lifted and be reconciled back into full communion.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=567871

What is your point exactly and why do I get the sense there is something more you want to say? The reality is that there is a vast gulf between Catholics who are dead in sin and those Catholics vibrantly living a sacramental life and advancing toward holiness.

Reconciliation requires true repentance, and yes, they will always be welcomed back if that condition is met.

But pushing Catholics away in this manner has the potential to severely discourage them and push them even further away. In the case of the Catholics the archbishop is talking about, they might never return to even attending Mass. As I see it, not a good way to get them to ever return to the practice

When Jesus told His followers that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have eternal life within them, many said this teaching is too hard and they turned away. He did not recant, nor change what He said, nor call them back - He let them go away as they chose.

I agree with this bishop. We must live with our individual choices in life and the mission of the Church is not to cajole or persuade, but merely to present the Truth of Christ. Those who have lapsed and neither believe nor practice their Catholicism, should, in all honesty, find another path (if they can) since the Church is not going to change her teachings, nor compromise moral truth. The Church always prays for her separated brethren, but there is nothing more that can be done. God does not force Himself upon us and those in direct opposition to objective truth can only cause harm and confusion among the faithful.

 

[nickybr38]

The prodigal son would have never learned his lesson if he had never left home…

 

[Tigg]

The prodigal son would have never learned his lesson if he had never left home…

Perhaps, but he returned home BECAUSE he saw the error of his ways and repented.

 

[CMatt25]

What is your point exactly and why do I get the sense there is something more you want to say? The reality is that there is a vast gulf between Catholics who are dead in sin and those Catholics vibrantly living a sacramental life and advancing toward holiness.

Reconciliation requires true repentance, and yes, they will always be welcomed back if that condition is met.

When Jesus told His followers that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have eternal life within them, many said this teaching is too hard and they turned away. He did not recant, nor change what He said, nor call them back - He let them go away as they chose.

I agree with this bishop. We must live with our individual choices in life and the mission of the Church is not to cajole or persuade, but merely to present the Truth of Christ. Those who have lapsed and neither believe nor practice their Catholicism, should, in all honesty, find another path (if they can) since the Church is not going to change her teachings, nor compromise moral truth. The Church always prays for her separated brethren, but there is nothing more that can be done. God does not force Himself upon us and those in direct opposition to objective truth can only cause harm and confusion among the faithful.

My only point in response to the poster who said the bishop should still be able to excommunicate and kick them out if they posed an organized threat, was that they would still be Catholics.

Some might go away as they choose. But as they choose. Which is not the same as a bishop or you telling them to leave or to find another path. The Church says if someone had a change of beliefs and does not remain, they could not be saved. So perhaps others hold to some of the faith rather than “leaving” completely. Because you never know when they might reconcile. But when folks start actually saying things like “leave” or that someone is not a Catholic or can not identify as such, that could also do more harm than good toward the reconciliation process you pray for.

 

[Tigg]

My only point in response to the poster who said the bishop should still be able to excommunicate and kick them out if they posed an organized threat, was that they would still be Catholics.

Some might go away as they choose. But as they choose. Which is not the same as a bishop or you telling them to leave or to find another path. The Church says if someone had a change of beliefs and does not remain, they could not be saved. So perhaps others hold to some of the faith rather than “leaving” completely. Because you never know when they might reconcile. But when folks start actually saying things like “leave” or that someone is not a Catholic or can not identify as such, that could also do more harm than good toward the reconciliation process you pray for.

The bishop did not say those with only a vestige of faith were not Catholic. From the article:

Over the past two decades, rising numbers of ‘a la carte’ Catholics simply turn up at the altar for the sacraments like baptism, communion and marriage.

He said: “It requires maturity on those people who want their children to become members of the church community and maturity on those people who say ‘I don’t believe in God and I really shouldn’t be hanging on to the vestiges of faith when I don’t really believe in it’.”

In our own parish we see the same thing; people want their children baptized and to make their first communion - then we never see them again. We actually have a sign-in sheet for those preparing for a sacrament; they must “sign-in” at the Mass they have attended so at least we know they are going to Church. How bad is that - that we need to force them to worship God once a week? In no way can this be called a faith-filled life or a mature one; indeed, it appears hypocritical, or even worse, superstitious. The sacraments are not magic and are being terribly misused. Without embracing the fullness of the faith, you have not accepted Truth and to say otherwise is duplicity. Do not underestimate the harm being done to community by these people. The Body of Christ suffers from the sins of its members, just as blessings are received from the good they do.

These people need to make a choice. I think what the bishop is saying is actually a kindness rather than a rejection - “look at the reality of your life - are you sincerely seeking Christ and eternal salvation through this Church? If not, for your own sake, then you need to find another way.”

 

[kama3]

I think what the bishop is saying is actually a kindness rather than a rejection - “look at the reality of your life - are you sincerely seeking Christ and eternal salvation through this Church? If not, for your own sake, then you need to find another way.”

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, so what “another way” can the bishop be talkign about?

 

[CMatt25]

The bishop did not say those with only a vestige of faith were not Catholic.

In our own parish we see the same thing; people want their children baptized and to make their first communion - then we never see them again. We actually have a sign-in sheet for those preparing for a sacrament; they must “sign-in” at the Mass they have attended so at least we know they are going to Church. How bad is that - that we need to force them to worship God once a week?

The Body of Christ suffers from the sins of its members, just as blessings are received from the good they do.

These people need to make a choice. I think what the bishop is saying is actually a kindness rather than a rejection - “look at the reality of your life - are you sincerely seeking Christ and eternal salvation through this Church? If not, for your own sake, then you need to find another way.”

Here’s the problem. If they are forced to leave, then he might as well be saying they are not Catholics even though the Church says they are, albeit perhaps non practicing.

Yes I know in the territorial parish for Catholics in my neighborhood, a child can not be baptized unless the parents have been registered and using the parish envelope system for 6 mos. You think it’s bad to have to force people to sign in. I think it’s sad that the priests at my local Catholic parish make envelopes a requirement for Baptism.

In regard to the Body, none within the Body, no matter how faithful or practicing, are immune from sin.

 

[Pork_Roll]

Its pretty simple–better to be ice cold than lukewarm. Didn’t our Lord say as much, that he would vomit us out for being lukewarm? The church is being merciful by kicking out the heretics and obstinate sinners. I think the church if it is to grow needs to be vibrant and saintly.

In the ancient church, confession was disclosed to the whole church and penances were severe. You weren’t expected to ever seriously sin after baptism. So kicking lukewarm obstinate heretics is certainly a tradition discipline.

 

[Tigg]

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, so what “another way” can the bishop be talkign about?

While we know and believe there is no other way (outside the Church) we cannot judge the motivation as to why Catholics do not practice their faith. Some have left and ardently pursue false religions but only the Lord can read their heart. But I agree - Nothing is more horrific than the thought of losing one’s soul and I fear for the salvation of those who have obstinately turned their back on the one thing that promises the hope of eternal life.

 

[Tigg]

To Catholics who have fallen away from the faith - the very instrument of your salvation, we only ask you to not undermine the faith of others (who may also be struggling) by your rejection of church teaching, constant criticism, bad example and refutation of what we believe to be Holy and True. You are free to go your own way - if you must do so, then leave us in peace. But why do you find it necessary to destroy the object of your desertion?

Remember, though, we will always pray for you:

*"Lord, we implore you to send your Spirit of Love and Truth upon those Catholics opposed to your Church, your teachings and your will that they, like the prodigal son, may come home and once again attain peace and the hope of their salvation.

Heal their afflicted spirits and assist them with your gifts of wisdom, understanding and knowledge. May they be given the grace to acknowledge the imperfection of human intellect and propensity for sin which Satan uses to deter them from the path of life.

May they instead, assent to the faith as you gave it to the Apostles and which is preserved by Holy Mother Church. Assist them that they may distinguish between the weak human element of the institution and the Divine, which is impeccable. May they lay their troubled souls and wounded hearts at the foot of your cross and through the one perpetual sacrifice ever re-presented in the Sacred Liturgy, we beseech You to bring them into full communion with the Mystical Body of Christ that they may draw deeply from the wellspring and Treasury of the Church as has been attainable throughout the ages. Illuminate their consciences that by humble submission to You alone, they may come back to the Fold.

May we be generous in extending our love and support to them in their struggle, and aided by your inspiration and grace may they attain the joy promised to them at their Baptism. Through the practice of holy obedience and faithfulness may they come into the fullness of your light where Truth and unspeakable happiness reside."*

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

lapsed catholics recieving holy communion has many problems on various levels.
from our view point they who recieve, Jesus in the eucharist, that are not in good standing, draw judgement on themselves. i think one saint compared it to the crowd who shouted cruify him on good friday.
even if they don’t believe this, out of common decency for us, who do, they should abstain from recieving what we believe to be our God. in the eucharist

also comming into a church to baptise your children as catholics and promising to bring the child up as a catholic is froth with danger for them come judgement day.
many now say i’m a catholic who doesn’t believe. this has an effect on the practising catholics. who wonder why do i still believe when everyone i went to school grew up with and so on think its a fariy story.

so no i think the archbishop called it right

lapsed Catholics?
what are doing in the Church?
why did not they go to the bar instead.
if they are in the church it is for a cause…no?
I think the problem in Ireland is they have got many Catholics so they can afford to kick some of them out…

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

An example of why His Excellency might be right is in the “womanpriest” article also at the top of “Catholic News”:

If one leaves, one cannot effect change. So we’re pushing boundaries

While I think the Archbishop is primarily talking about Christmas/Easter/Baptism/Funeral - type Catholics, he could also be talking about people who don’t form their consciences. While in some cases, it is just neglect, there is a distinct population, like the woman who made the comment quoted above, who simply wish to destroy the Church from within. Yes, it would be far better for heretics like her to simply leave.

“Christmas/Easter/Baptism/Funeral - type Catholics” - are these Muslims? Budhists? xintoists? Hindhus? Jews? Atheists? Communists?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Our local Catholic schools stopped teaching/providing sacramental prep as a way of “forcing” Catholics to turn to their parishes for this.

We will see in a generation whether that means more or less people in Catholic Churches and schools. My guess is that there will be far less kids in Catholic schools.

As to the Archbishop telling part-time or lapsed Catholics to take a hike: remember he’s Irish and he’s speaking to Irish people! I’ve never known an Irishman to do what he’s told

The Irish are the Northern Latinos !!!

 

[Yerusalyim]

Doesn’t the welfare of the child come into this at all? Even if the parents are lapsed or worse, having the child baptized is certainly better than the alternative, no?

It is so critical to have children baptized at a young age; and the wrongdoing of their parents shouldn’t preclude the children from baptism. I don’t think there should be any unnecessary impediment to baptizing innocent children.

The priests I know would refrain from baptizing a child of a lapsed Catholic. Part of the deal with infant baptism is the priest has to have a reasonable hope that the child will be raised Catholic.

 

[CMatt25]

Its pretty simple–better to be ice cold than lukewarm. Didn’t our Lord say as much, that he would vomit us out for being lukewarm? The church is being merciful by kicking out the heretics and obstinate sinners. I think the church if it is to grow needs to be vibrant and saintly.

In the ancient church, confession was disclosed to the whole church and penances were severe. You weren’t expected to ever seriously sin after baptism. So kicking lukewarm obstinate heretics is certainly a tradition discipline.

I think instead I’ll not judge whose heart is or is not on fire for the Lord. And shall leave it to Him to judge whose heart is or is not lukewarm and whether or not they will be spit out.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=commit%20mortal%20sin&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.saintaquinas.com%2Fmortal_sin.html&ei=sJboTs6iLs20hAe178DgCA&usg=AFQjCNFcMb-cC3OtyAsGfyl3XNVKuKDbeg&sig2=rNdhUvjRHH0PLw5EiAoGsg

actually i answered your 3rd question but you didn’t seem to understand that either, but i am interested why you think it’s posible not to know your committing a mortal sin?

by the way, what is your first language, is it spanish?

Look, The church says that no one can be sure to be in a state of grace.
I suppose the reverse is true.
Look: you’ve got to have: 1)grave matter; 2) 100% consent; 10% knowledge. Who is able to determine these conditions? I use to say that I do not have a morta-sin-meter. Was it 80% consent? 90%? 99%?
My first language is italian.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I can understand his frustration. There is a problem with cultural Catholicism here in Ireland. People who go to Mass when they absolutely have to, for the social element, or just for the “hatch, match and dispatch” occasions. Perhaps he hopes to purge the Church of those who do damage from the inside - the “I’m a Catholic, but…” brigade, of which I used to be a member - as in “I’m a Catholic but I don’t believe in contraception, I don’t go to Confession, etc., etc.”

And I suppose it’s two-sided. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if there was just a core group of really faithful believers in the Church, all with the same goal and belief system, all encouraging each other in personal holiness, instead of the mish-mash of New Age, liberal, cafeteria Catholics that we currently have.

However, having been part of the latter group, maybe we would be depriving them of an encounter with God which might be instrumental in their re-conversion to the faith. Maybe the words they might pick up in one homily could speak to their hearts, maybe… But I still understand his frustration, and would liken it to Jesus’ cleansing of the Temple.

So, the Archbishop only wants the saints in the mass.
The sinners, they, they better not to go…
Funny !!!