Is a church membership needed for salvation?

[Frankenfurter]

Of course the only Catholic answer to the OP’s question is no.

Even the Pope has said that the unborn, the unbaptized have the possibility of salvation.

And I don’t know any priest who does not think that most protestant Christians are validly baptized.

We Catholics sometimes say that non-Catholics miss out on the fullness of the faith. But to deny salvation would be playing God.

But since Jesus said that the only way to the Father is through him. And since all that we know about Jesus (Scriptures) we got from what we now call the Catholic Church, and since that Church says it tries very hard to preserve all that we can know about Jesus, well, I don’t think God will deny anyone of us salvation, but spiritually, we may have a hard time with it if we don’t get straight with Christ. Personally, I need the Catholic Church to do that.

 

[PRmerger]

Can you provide a c & v for your assertion? Bear

We would be happy to do that, once you provide a c & v for your assertion that we need to provide a c & v for all our beliefs.

It is our tradition that the Scriptures were not written to be a full compendium of the faith. Thus, we don’t need to provide c & v for each and every article of faith.

Now, as it is your tradition, you ought to be able to provide the chapter and verse that tells you this is your standard.

 

[Sufjon]

The question is who is mocking and what is being mocked.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[PRmerger]

The question is who is mocking and what is being mocked.

Your friend,
Sufjon

Why, Sufjon, it’s nice to meet you again on a thread! But, I must say, reading your post below, you have changed your tone indeed. :sad_yes:

You were, in our past conversations, always polite, even to the point of extremes, and now, this post below is indeed mocking and sarcastic.

Sarcasm is the protest of the weak.

What happened?

Yes, Jesus insists that you belong to a fully accredited church, and have all of your supporting paperwork in order. Makes sense, doesn’t it? That’s why Jesus built big churches all over Palestine, collected revenues, kept copious notes and records on membership, and spent most of His time on rituals. Of course this was necessary, because who could follow a guy who roamed the countryside without any august trappings, formal structures and proper hierarchies in place. Such a person might be crucified. Beter sign up for one today. The bigger the better.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Revert_43]

wsxyz;7868134:

In Chapter 66 of Justin Martyr’s First Apology,

Thanks for the info wsxyz, however, I would like to have scripture supporting your view, not the opinion of other men. I think we can agree that with the internet, one can find support for most any view one may have. IMO, if it cannot be proven with scripture, then it is only the opinion of the one expressing his views. Bear

Perhaps this should be a different thread but why is it important for wsxyz to have scripture supporting his view? Scripture doesn’t support this statement.

In fact your last statement contradicts your first statement. You say that it is your opinion that if it cannot be proven with scripture then it is only an opinion. Your words state your own opinion, yet you require the proof of scripture to accept other peoples views. Why the double standard?

And before rehashing the scripture alone argument here are scripture references

scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0310sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0310sbs.asp

 

[Sufjon]

(name removed by moderator):

My point is that it is fine to follow God within the parameters of a defined church structure if that is how one is able to find God. I do not believe that it is fine to build any sort of organization and then try to confer upon it any level of authority on God’s behalf, or to name any person the Charge d’Affairs of Christ through whose offices one must deal in order to reach God. Such arrangements are fine for those who feel they need it, but to turn around and tell others that one prescribed way or another is preferred by God is in my view hard to comprehend or explain. As for Jesus bashing His own faith, well, my sense is that He was usually pretty much at odds with the Temple establishment and preferred the company of Essenes, or at least acted like one of them. He showed absolutely no inclination to create anything that looks like a well oiled and defined establishment. If you want to have something like that, well that’s fine, but I think it’s rather a stretch to convince others that it’s needed.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[PJM]

=tevans9129;7868296]Can you provide a c & v for your assertion? Bear

It is Wise, Prudent, Well-Founded, reasonable and rewarding BUT NOT MANDATORY:thumbsup:

WHY?

Because such a position would in “Cause and Effect” be no different than the ERROR of OSAS, and saved by “Faith Alone.”

Our Almighty and ALL-Wise God Created us [Humanity] as he did; precisely so that we COULD FREELY choose to love Him more perfectly. READ Isaiah 43: 7 and 21

God Bless you!

Pat

 

[tevans9129]

tevans9129,

We must cooperate with God’s gift of the Holy Spirit to us to remain in holiness for our salvation. Christ is present to us in his body the Church. Those cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, and refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

Can you provide a Bible reference for the assertions you have made above?

James 2:24-26
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

“Justified”, yes, where is there anything about salvation?

26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I totally agree with v26, I believe that James makes it very clear that our faith is proven by our deeds but can you quote a verse where our “salvation” depends upon works?

Matt 16:15-19
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

What did Jesus ask Peter, was it not who Peter thought Jesus was? And what was Peter’s answer, was it not, “You are the Messiah”? Where does Jesus say that it is on Peter that He will build His church? Does He not address whom He is making the statement to, Peter, and can it not be interpreted that His church will be built upon the fact that Jesus was the Messiah, Peter’s answer? Why would Jesus build the church upon a man, any man, why would it not be for Jesus’ glory and not Peter’s. After all, Peter made mistakes, even denying that he knew Jesus, was rebuked by Paul, (gal 2:11), is that a “rock” that one would believe Jesus would build His church upon? How many times in scripture is “rock” associated with Peter, verses the Lord? Or, is it more plausible to think that Jesus would build His church upon His word?

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

And v19 applies to salvation how?

Mark 16:15-16
15 He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Exactly, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved”, where does it say that you must belong to the Catholic Church, or any church, to be “saved”?

John 20:21-23
21 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
Mark 2:10
10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth"

Great verses, however, I fail to see how they apply to salvation.

Thanks for your comments Vico, some we agree on, some, perhaps not.

Bear

 

[mackbrislawn]

My point is that it is fine to follow God within the parameters of a defined church structure if that is how one is able to find God. I do not believe that it is fine to build any sort of organization and then try to confer upon it any level of authority on God’s behalf, or to name any person the Charge d’Affairs of Christ through whose offices one must deal in order to reach God. Such arrangements are fine for those who feel they need it, but to turn around and tell others that one prescribed way or another is preferred by God is in my view hard to comprehend or explain. As for Jesus bashing His own faith, well, my sense is that He was usually pretty much at odds with the Temple establishment and preferred the company of Essenes, or at least acted like one of them. He showed absolutely no inclination to create anything that looks like a well oiled and defined establishment. If you want to have something like that, well that’s fine, but I think it’s rather a stretch to convince others that it’s needed.

The thing is, is that it is only because a well oiled establishment came into being that Jesus’ and his disciples teachings are remembered at all. Only a defined organization with authority allowed the Christian writings to remain and be copied and collected as a canon. Without it, they would have been lost and the nascent Christian movement would have been subsumed into the other mystery religions of the Roman empire, and as forgotten as they are forgotten.

So, whatever we may think of organized religion, it is only because of organized religion that we are today not pagans, that we believe in God and the bible at all. It is a debt we owe it. That is why it is needed.

No, Jesus didn’t define an establishment, He left that up to the apostles He chose. They did that by appointing overseers, presbyters, and deacons.

True, Jesus had conflicts with the establishment, but that was because of its hypocrisy. Otherwise, he recognized its authority, as noted in Mt 23:3.

 

[tevans9129]

John 6:51-55

Tevans, are you eating the flesh of the son of man?

No, I am eating the bread that is symbolic of the flesh of the Son of Man.

In Matthew 26:26 when Jesus said, "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

Do you believe that the “bread”, made by human hands, that Jesus gave to His disciples was actually His body? Or, is it more plausible that it was “representative” of His body, something to be done in remembrance of Him? Just as He said in,

1 Corinthians 11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

Therefore, if you choose to believe the bread is literally the body of Jesus, so be it, I choose to believe that it is symbolic and we partake of it in remembrance of what Jesus did for us until His return.

I imagine you’ll answer no. So will God raise you up on the last day?

There is not one iota of doubt in my mind, I believe God’s word and that His promises are irrevocable.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

IMO, it is strictly through Jesus that we come to the Father, not through the Catholic Church, the Lutheran, the Methodist, and the Baptist etc. The church does not save anyone, it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us, in my view. After we are saved, should we belong to an organized body of believers, I certainly think so. Does membership in that organization automatically make us a member of God’s body, I think not.

I appreciate your comments, and, especially your politeness in our discussion.

Bear

 

[Sufjon]

The thing is, is that it is only because a well oiled establishment came into being that Jesus’ and his disciples teachings are remembered at all. Only a defined organization with authority allowed the Christian writings to remain and be copied and collected as a canon. Without it, they would have been lost and the nascent Christian movement would have been subsumed into the other mystery religions of the Roman empire, and as forgotten as they are forgotten.

So, whatever we may think of organized religion, it is only because of organized religion that we are today not pagans, that we believe in God and the bible at all. It is a debt we owe it. That is why it is needed.

No, Jesus didn’t define an establishment, He left that up to the apostles He chose. They did that by appointing overseers, presbyters, and deacons.

True, Jesus had conflicts with the establishment, but that was because of its hypocrisy. Otherwise, he recognized its authority, as noted in Mt 23:3.

Hi mackbrislawn: I agree with most of what you are saying. I don’t, however, think it is necessarily true that handing down the words of Jesus or the transcendent truths that He gave humanity is or was dependent on any particular structure. He did leave overseers and the like, and what they put on place developed, changed and split into a number of permutations over time, (Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, and so on) but it all has the same source. My point is to say that any one in particular is a static representation of anything that was intended more so than the other, or that any of them alone or collectively are necessary is hard to imagine and probably counter to His intent. Again, for the most part, I do agree with you.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[tevans9129]

tevans9129,

Sometimes when those of us who spent our lives not being Catholic try to think about what the Catholic view might be, it feels a lot better to see chapter and verse - it’s what we are used to seeing. Vico did a great job giving you some verses to think about and I hope you will. Especially consider this, if in Matt. 16 Jesus built his church on Peter the rock, wouldn’t you want to be a part of that church?

Blessings.

I appreciate your comments. I believe the operative word in your statement is “if”. I think it is very debatable that Jesus built His church on Peter, or any man. In answer to Jesus’ question, Peter said that Jesus was the Messiah and I believe that Jesus was saying that is the “rock” that His church will be built upon. If Jesus is head of the church, why would he say that He was building it on a man?

To answer your question, yes, I would want to be a part of the body of Christ. In my view, Jesus does not make mistakes, every other church body does. I believe the Bible is the word of the Lord and it is infallible, no church run by man is, which I think is the reason the Lord admonishes us in Acts 17:11,

“Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.”

Do you notice that it does not instruct us to run to this church or that church for verification but to the Scriptures? Churches make mistakes; the Lord does not, IMO.

Bear

 

[PJM]

=tevans9129;7869414]This is my reply to a post by Elsport1, please let me know if I have broken any rules, if I have, I apologize.

First, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post and, for your best wishes.

Where did the Bible come from??? How can you use something the Catholic Church put together to attempt to disprove the teachings of the Catholic church?

This statement is confusing to me, if, the Catholic Church put the Bible together, and, if, I quoted from that Bible, how is it me that is disproving the teachings of the Catholic Church? Is all of the Bible inspired, or only parts of it?

My dear friend in Christ; allow me please to add a historical perspective that may; God Willing; aid your understanding.

Keep in mind that From the first to the last page in the bible; God desired, wanted, founded, and protects only one God, One Faith and After Christ Visitation; only One Church. [their are OVER 100+ passages to support this in the NT alone]. So it is not debateable.

The Entire NT [100%] is writen under the Inspiration of God; which is to be understood as GUIDED BY GOD to insure NO [zip-zerro] Moral error or errors of Faith-belief. It is NOT a history book, but does recount through verbal transmission; the history of the Hewbre Nation.

Because the OT recounts the One God / One Faith belief; it is continued in the NT. Because it alone is God’s Will.

The Catholic Faith: first called “The Way,” then “Christians” and early in the Second Century; “catholic=Universal” ny Saint Ignatious; was THE ONLY God supported Faith, Church and Christian belief systeme of note in the Entire World until the GREAt Schism of the EAST around 1010 Anno Domini. And they still retained MOST of the same beliefs and Apostolic Succession continue the sacraments.

With this Back goround the Bible has to be [no other options existed] a Catholic Book; WRITTEN for the catholic Community of One Faith, One God and One Church [now in many locations].

It is from this foundation that ONLY the CC as guided and Protected by God can, does and will continue as the Truthful interpretor of the Bible. [READ: John 14:16-17 “FOREVER”, and John 17:15-19]* wehre jesus GIVES literally HIMSELF as the WARRANTY of her [Mother Church] unfaling and UNABLE TO FAIL teachings of Morals and Faith Beliefs.

The scriptures need to be taken as a whole. Not as little one liner’s. Remember the Bible was not originally broken down into chapter and verse.

OK But that does nouting to change what I have shared above; and in FACT completly supports it.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

What exactly must one confess? I’m not sure if just reading this line you can say.

READ: 1 John 1:8-10, 1 John5:16-17 and John 20: 19-23 for your ANSWER

It has not been my intention to suggest that any doctrine can be established using one verse, just as you stated earlier. I thoroughly agree that the Bible should be taken as a whole{/QIOTE]

While I agree intellectually; it is a practical impossibility to cull ALL of the Teachings, Commands, and Obligations in doing so. Such an exercise would RIGHTY say the Bible is ALL about Love; and indeed it is; But that friend is only part of the message…

I “believe on Him” with all my heart, I have confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord, I believe that God raised Him from the dead, I have confessed my sins to Him and have asked His forgiveness and that He will be my Lord and Savior, however, I am not Catholic, therefore, is it your opinion that I do not have salvation?

Bear

At BEST…IFFY!

WHY?

It requires TWO THINGS: 1. PERFECT CONTRITION [in God’s understanding of “perfect.”]

God MUST BE FAIR and JUST; and so he is!

THEREFORE HE MUST judge what one is able to know about the TRUTH [did you actually look up the verses I provided?] as being the SAME as knowing the truth and denying it.

It is HIGHLY probable that your access to this Form makes you eligible to KNOW the TRUTH. Still in the end it God’s call not our to make. Like I said "IFFY."

God Bless,
Pat

 

[tevans9129]

Are you talking about a church building?

No.

Because a Catholic doesn’t HAVE to belong to a particular edifice, he can go to any Catholic church anywhere.

Protestants make much of belonging to a “good, bible-believing church.”

Is it your contention then that it is not important to be associated with a "Bible-believing group?

For Catholics it’s not so much the edifice that’s important as is the body of Christ. No building can ever contain it in its entirety.

I don’t have any Scripture passages to “prove” any of that, though, so I assume you will ignore it.

OK, I have many opinions that I cannot prove with scripture, which I think are reasonable to express, as long as I do not state them as “fact”

I used to use the passages you cite to assuage my guilt for not practicing my religion (a rebellion in which I spent over two decades). Those passages said I was safe and “saved,” so why should I go to Mass? The question is, if you’re a Catholic, why wouldn’t you want to go to Mass? The Mass is an incredible gift, even without the miracle of the Eucharist, why wouldn’t you want to partake?

I am not Catholic, I read and study the Bible every day, asking the Holy Spirit for guidance in that study, I am a member of a church, attend regularly and I enjoy taking communion. So, in your opinion, does God “ignore” and places no value on that because it is not done with the blessings of the Catholic Church?

You can ignore that, too.

It is not ignored, I just view it as your opinions.

Bear

 

[Sufjon]

Why, Sufjon, it’s nice to meet you again on a thread! But, I must say, reading your post below, you have changed your tone indeed. :sad_yes:

You were, in our past conversations, always polite, even to the point of extremes, and now, this post below is indeed mocking and sarcastic.

Sarcasm is the protest of the weak.

What happened?

Hi PRMerger: Sometimes I am a bit intolerant for the same reasons as stated on your bumper sticker.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PRMerger: Sometimes I am a bit intolerant for the same reasons as stated on your bumper sticker.

Your friend,
Sufjon

Fair enough.

I just never saw this side of you before.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Stick to the topic and not each other.
Thanks

 

[jmcrae]

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

And how does one get through Jesus? How does Jesus come physically into your body to become part of you, so that every action of yours is His action? It can only be by means of the Sacraments of the Catholic Church that He Himself established for this purpose.

Merely wishing it does not accomplish it - saying the Sinner’s Prayer as if it were a set of magic words cannot “save” anyone - the person must be incorporated into Christ by means of His Sacraments.

 

[campeador]

tevans9129,

if you don’t mind me asking, what is your ‘pillar and foundation of Truth’?

What does the Bible say?

Peace

 

[Joseph651]

Thank you all for your statements with the correct fact and not correct fact. I believe that the Church stands on it own as no one can name another Christian Denomination that has over 1 billion+++++ and counting as members of THE ONE TRUE CHURCH THAT JESUS CHRIST FOUNDED UPON PETER AS HIS FIRST ADMINISTRATOR.

Thank you Father, Son and Holy Spirit for our lives.