Is a church membership needed for salvation?

[Sufjon]

This is bordering on spiritual snobbery. It also begs the question.

I suppose you have John on record calling himself an essene?

If John was an essene he would not have been preaching in the desert about the messiah. If you actually knew of the lives of the essenes and their ascetic practices you would know how absurd this conclusion is.

And spare me the speculation of a few “scholars” who have educated themselves into foolishness.

Nobody understood Jesus.

John was so sure that Jesus was the messiah that he had to send his followers to ask Him if he was(yes, that is sarcasim).

You really ought to not read into the Scriptures your own preconceived ideas.

Those not baptized into Christ’s body do not have Christ nor have they entered into His death. They who do not receive His body and Blood do not have Him abiding in them.

Wow. This is a binch of pantheistic nonsense.

“Everything is God and God is everything.” Sorry, but pantheism is contradictory not only to the truth of God and Judaism but also Christianity as well.

False, we were created as psycho-somatic(soul-body) realities. Our bodies are not the prisons of our souls. Our souls AND our bodies ARE who we are. They are integral to our existence. Hence it is why we will be resurrected body AND soul in heaven.

Oh, wow, you did not just really say that God is dependent on His creation, did you?

False dichotomy. I can know with my intellect that 2+2=4. But I won’t die for that belief. I can, and do, know via my intellect that there is a God by observing that which He has made(Rom 1).

Communion with Christ is an objective reality, not a subjective experience. We enter into that communion by the way that Christ ordained; through His Church who ministers His sacraments.

Grey Pilgrim: We can have a discussion, but I sense by your tone that it would only digress into an argument. If you would like to rephrase your response, I would be happy to engage you in a discussion. Otherwise I’ll take it that you’ve said what you have to say and we can let it rest.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Return to the thread topic please

 

[PRmerger]

For those that have responded to my post and I have not answered, I am trying to respond to each one in the order they were posted. I am not ignoring anyone and I will respond when possible. Thanks to all for your (name removed by moderator)ut regarding the subject in this thread.

Bear

Thanks, Bear.

But would you please respond to this post I made, way back on page 5?

Thanks!

We would be happy to do that, once you provide a c & v for your assertion that we need to provide a c & v for all our beliefs.

It is our tradition that the Scriptures were not written to be a full compendium of the faith. Thus, we don’t need to provide c & v for each and every article of faith.

Now, as it is your tradition, you ought to be able to provide the chapter and verse that tells you this is your standard.

 

[tevans9129]

For those that have responded to my post and I have not answered, I am trying to respond to each one in the order they were posted. I am not ignoring anyone and I will respond when possible. Thanks to all for your (name removed by moderator)ut regarding the subject in this thread.

Bear

If I do not respond to the post addressed to me, it is not by choice, apparently, I am breaking too many rules.

Bear

 

[tevans9129]

Sorry this is rather long, and I am by no means a theologian, but this is what I’ve gather after a lot of studying…

In Philippians 2:12-13, Paul writes, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.”

From this we gather that salvation is not a single event. You have to “work it out”

Part 1 of 2

I am sorry but I disagree with your statement for the following reasons.

Paul was writing to the Philippian church, which I think one could plausible conclude were believers. If that being the case, they were already saved, however, would Paul not want to encourage them to become more like Christ. After all, he said to work “out” your salvation, he did not say work “for or toward” your salvation.

Actually, the word “out” does not appear in the original text, it reads, “work your salvation with fear and trembling”.

Now, I have given an explanation for 2:12, would you give me yours for Acts 16:31 where Paul and Silas answered the jailers’ question as to what he must do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Did Paul tell them to believe, and, be baptized and they would be saved, or, did he tell them to “believe” and then, he baptized them?

Matt 24:1 “He who endures to the end will be saved”
This implies that salvation can be lost if you don’t endure to the end of your life.

Matt 24:1 does not say that in my Bible, however, Matt 24:13 does.

Who is Jesus talking to in this verse and what is the subject of the chapter? Was it not to His disciples and in answer to their three questions, "when will these things happen, what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Therefore, I believe that Jesus is answering these three questions in Matthew 24 and it was spoken to Jews, who were looking at it from a Jewish perspective, they were looking for Jesus to re-establish the Jewish kingdom and at that, time knew nothing of the church. It would be in the “last days” or the tribulation, Daniel’s seventieth week. If you believe in the rapture, the church is already gone and the people who must endure to the end are those that come to Jesus during the tribulation period. IOW, it is the tribulation saints that will have to endure to the end.

If you read chapter 24 carefully, I think you will find that it is strictly Jewish in content and does not apply to the church. IMO, it is about the last days and if you read Daniel 9:21-27, I believe you will find that it is for Jerusalem and the Jewish people.

Romans 11:22"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off"
Another instance of being “cut off” which means at one time you were attached or saved.

What is the context of the chapter, is it not about Israel and the grafting in of the Gentiles? Where in v22 is there any thing about salvation or being saved?

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

Here we see that baptism is a requirement for salvation since you cannot enter the gates of heaven without it.

Where does it say anything about “baptism”? It could be, as it could be about the water Jesus spoke of in John 4:14, it could be about the physical birth when one is born. My personal belief is that it represents God’s word and no I cannot prove it, just my belief.

There are also passages that figuratively use water for the spirit of God (Isa. 44:3–4; Ezek. 36:25–26; Joel 2:23, 28 or for God himself (Jer. 2:13; 17:13).

To be continued.

Bear

 

[tevans9129]

John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.”

Here if you don’t “bear fruit” such as the fruit of your labors or works you will be “taken away” or cut off from the vine by the Father.

Part 2 of 2

Is this verse speaking of individuals? Would you agree that a “vine” has many branches? Jesus is the vine, the head of the church, there are churches that bear fruit for Jesus and some that do not. Is it possible that He will “cut off” those churches that do no bear fruit and He prunes those that do so they bear even more fruit? Nope, I cannot prove this with scripture, just my view.

Also cross that with Mathew 7:17 “Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.”

I am sorry but I do not see where this has anything at all to do with one’s salvation.

There are many conditions that God has set up for salvation. I’m sure you can fire back another quote or 2 about Faith being a part of salvation, but in truth it is a combination of BOTH that truly leads to salvation.

OK, here are some quotes, perhaps you can you explain them for me.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Of course, there are other verses like these that I could quote, however, allow me to ask this question, Eph 2:8,9 specifically says that we “have been saved through faith”, and, “not of works”, can you provide scripture that specifically states other requirement for salvation?

One without the other is dead.

It is my opinion, which I believe can be proven with scripture, that we prove our faith by our works, by the fruit that we produce and if there are no work, no fruits, then was there true “faith” to begin with, I think not.

I am not Catholic at this point, but I have been studying the Church for a few years now, and am strongly thinking of joining. I pray that God will lead you to the truth as I feel he has me. We also need to look past our feelings and actively search for the truth. I would suggest reading Catholicism Answer Book by Rev John Trigilio JR and Rev Kenneth D. Brighenti, you could also pick up a copy of the Catechism to read the official words of the Church, or check out these links:
There are a lot more good links I could post, but doing a quick search on Catholic.com will probably yield a ton of good information.

That is one of the differences that I find in the Catholics that I have conversed with, I search for the truth in the scriptures not in what the CC, or any church asserts. If, what they teach can be supported with scripture, I consider it true, if not, then I challenge it, regardless of what “church” it comes from.

May God Bless and good luck in your endeavor.

Bear

 

[cemiller]

Thanks, you have made an interesting point. I will try to explain my view of the verse.

Paul was writing to the Philippian church, which I think one could plausible conclude were believers. If that being the case, they were already saved, however, would Paul not want to encourage them to become more like Christ. After all, he said to work “out” your salvation, he did not say work “for” your salvation.

Actually, the word “out” does not appear in the original text, it reads, “work your salvation with fear and trembling”.

Now, I have given an explanation for 2:12, would you give me yours for Acts 16:31 where Paul and Silas answered the jailers question as to what he must do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Now, do you suppose that Paul would have taken them “that hour” and baptized them had he not believed they were saved?

Of course, I could quote a number of verses like v31 but I think it makes the point.

Thanks again for reminding me of v12.

Bear

Act’s 16 verse:
30
Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved.”
32
So they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house.
33
He took them in at that hour of the night and bathed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized at once.

note that they directly link Baptism with this statement…

John 3 verse:
4
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
5
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Note that the “Born again” concept is also directly linked with Baptism “WATER and spirit”
It would make no sense if water also meant spirit, it would be repeating yourself again saying “being born of spirit and spirit”
The rest I will have to respond to later when I have time to look over it all, sorry

 

[PJM]

=tevans9129;Using the NKJV, I find 42 verses dealing with salvation, not one of them mentions baptism as a requirement.

Here are the DR and KJB sisde by side: John 3:5

D-R 5" Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

KJ 5" Jesus answered , Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

In John John 4:22 he says, for salvation is from the Jews

So Jesus and the Apostles stoped being Jewish? Actualy this references the Line of David from which the Messiah was and did come.

Romans 10:10 he says, believing with the heart and confessing with the mouth results in salvation.

AND Jn. 3:5 "[5] Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” [36] He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him

2 Corinthians 7:10 says that for the sorrow according God’s will produces a repentance leading to salvation.

AND John.20: 21 to 23 "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.*** If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ***

1 Thessalonians 5:9 says that God destined us for obtaining salvation through Jesus.

**AMEN! Matt.16: 19 **“I [JESUS] will give you [Done Deal] the keys [ALL OF THEM] of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” John 20:21 “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” MEANS WITH THE ACTUAL POWER OF GOD HIMSELF.

Do I believe baptism is important for Christians? Certainly, If, a person believes in his heart and makes the confessions as commanded in the verses listed above but for whatever reason, cannot be baptized for a period of time, do you believe that God is going to send that person to hell?

YES! Because Jesus Himself said so above in **Jn. 3:5; and from Mark.16:16 “**He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

OK, what does he say is the reason for repenting and being baptized? Is it for salvation, or, to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

It’s not “either or,” Its BOTH

Where does it say that baptism is required for the remission of sins,

You ARE confused. **Mark.1: 4 "John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins."

I know Christian churches that teach differently and they use the Bible to support their teachings.

**

I

am confused, Your using a Catholic Book].

How can “justification” be used like “salvation”? According to Strongs, the word used for justification is dikaiosis, which means, acquittal (for Christ’s sake):—justification. In my mind, there are two very different meanings, so which one should I believe, that was written in the original Greek and the meanings according to Strong’s, or, “a Catholic”?

:blush:I’m not following you here; please explain. The Bible is a Catholic Book; do you dispute that?

COLOR=“red”] how do you prove your church is right and mine is wrong? Since we both claim that our teachings are based on the Bible, why not use it in support of those teachings?

1. Keys to the Kingdom 2. Power to remit sins in Christ name 3. Jn. 17: 15-19 " I [Jesus] do not pray that thou shouldst take them [The Apostles] out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. "Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. [the Fathers Truth is Christ TRUTH and He passes this on to His Aposles][19] And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. Only the CC on Faith beleifs and Moral issues has Jesus HIMSELF as the WARRANTY of those truths! 4. Their are over 100 vs. in the NT for ONE Faith/One Church.

If you choose to place your trust in the leadership of the Catholic Church

, it is not a problem for me.

Christ DID! Space prohibits a responce. Pls, PM me.

G B !

Pat

 

[tevans9129]

Your question was asked, in Luke 23:42.

A question that Jesus answered directly, in Luke 23:43.

Did Jesus answer that there is only one Church: the Catholic Church?

I do thank God, for the Catholic Church; but, membership is not required [in it or any church], for salvation.

And I agree, I am thankful for all “churches” that want to see people become a member of “the church”, the body of Christ. Unfortunately, I think there are some churches that are more interested in their membership than in Christ’s.

Bear

 

[campeador]

And I agree, I am thankful for all “churches” that want to see people become a member of “the church”, the body of Christ. Unfortunately, I think there are some churches that are more interested in their membership than in Christ’s.

Bear

Are you now saying that Church membership *is *required?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

It is my opinion that it matters not to which “church” one belongs to, or any church for that matter, as to salvation, only the condition of the heart and if one has sincerely accepted Christ as their Savior. What says you and do you have scripture supporting your answer?

Protestants and Catholics approach the word “Church” from different perspectives. The Catholic perspective is that there is only one Church founded by Christ, and that the fullness of that Church can be found within a visible structure in which the successor of Peter is the visible earthly head, who succeeded to the authority that Christ gave Peter as described in Mt. 16:18ff.

We see Christians who have separated themselves from what we believe to be the “fullness” of faith as belonging to ecclesial communities that are (to greater or lesser degree) visibly separated from the fullness that we believe subsides in the Church that is faithful to the rightfull successor of Peter. Although such persons are visibly separated, they are still united to the Church by baptism, which makes them members of the body of Christ. So, there is only one Church, and to greater or lesser degrees there are communities that have set themselves apart in a visible way, although all who receive valid baptism are - in a real sense connected to the Church that Christ established.

So, “the Church” is necessary for salvation. Membership in “a church” is a disconnect in the sense that one must thereby assume Christ established more than one from which one can pick and choose the best fit. Lumen Gentium does a beautiful job of summing up the Catholic perspective. (See Chapter 2, beginning at par. 9) I’ll include a short quotation. Due to the word limits, the full text of the document can’t be posted with its 304 Scripture citations. But a link to the document is here.

All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation…

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

…

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

I hope this helps.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

It is my opinion that it matters not to which “church” one belongs to, or any church for that matter, as to salvation, only the condition of the heart and if one has sincerely accepted Christ as their Savior. What says you and do you have scripture supporting your answer? Bear

Hello again…

As to salvation, what does it mean to “sincerely accept Christ as savior.” I’m guessing that you see it as a single momentary act of the will. But I may be wrong. It’s important to my ability to give a meaningful response. Can you explain for me and others here what you mean by this? What is a “sincere acceptance of Christ as Savior?”

Still catching up on the rest of the responses, so if you’ve already done this, can you cite me the post #.

Peace,
Robert

 

[tevans9129]

Hi Bear! It does matter what church you belong to, but you can be saved if you’re not in the Catholic Church.

I agree that it does matter as to what church one belongs to, however, the question was, “Is church membership needed for salvation”? The intentions of your statement are not perfectly clear to me.

The teaching of no salvation outside the church is that if you reject the church with full knowledge and consent, you can’t be saved (mortal sin).

First the question, what is your definition of “the church”?

Can you provide scripture that supports that contention?

What scripture states that rejecting a church is a “mortal sin”?

It appears to me that Matthew says that every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, except, blasphemy against the “Holy Spirit”, in any age.

Matthew 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Do you have scripture that makes the same argument about the church?

As for faith alone and OSAS, I think the bible refutes both.

OK, would you care to provide the scripture references that you believe supports your view and I will provide the ones that I believe supports my view?

Just to get you thinking, can you be saved if you don’t love God? Catholics will say no, but how about you?

I cannot quote scripture that clearly states that it is not possible, but I do not see how. If one does not love God, why would they wish to be saved in the first place and from what?

If you say no, and you must love God to be saved, then you have to love others to be saved, because you can’t love God if you don’t love others (somewhere in 1 John).

Would you provide the reference that makes that assertion Joey, I have not been able to find anything that says loving others is a pre-requisite for salvation. Are we to love others as Jesus loves us, absolutely. Why, because it is a command of Jesus, John 15:12,17 and others.

That means that works are necessary for salvation (as Catholics say).

Well, I must confess that loving some sure seems like work for me but I am not sure that Jesus would consider that as works. To me, loving others is a command for those of us that are saved, no different than any other commandment, such as not committing adultery, making oaths, loving our enemies etc.

So how do we show our love for Jesus, John 14:21 says,

“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

Are we to have His commandments and keep them before we are saved, where does scripture say that?

You seem to think that Catholics teach you can “earn” your salvation. That is not true, and if you learned more about what Catholics believe you would see that it is not true. I hope this helps.

Joey

OK, can you explain to me then if we must do “works” for salvation, in addition to believing, confessing our sins, and calling on Jesus to be our Lord and Saviour, how can it not be considered as “earning” it?

One additional item, there are 42 verses in the NKJV that speaks of salvation, not once is doing works, or being baptized, stated or implied as a prerequisite for salvation. Why do you think Jesus would not mention something that is so important to our eternal life anywhere in scripture?

I appreciate your comments Joey, some I can agree with, some I cannot.

Bear

PS It is not my intention to ignore anyone’s post on this subject, I am trying to respond in order of the post. Thanks

 

[Robert_in_SD]

You make some valid points about Eucharist in non-Catholic church communities, including the various Orthodox churches. But the main thrust is whether one must belong to “a particular church” to be saved. From a Catholic perspective (See my earlier post with citation to Lumen Gentium) all of the individual members of these churches are united together by their baptism in the one Church that Christ founded. Indeed, from the Orthodox perspective the only insurmountable dogmatic division is in regard to the scope of papal authority. Valid (although ilicit) eucharist is also available in SSPX churches (way off topic now). But again, even members of that group are united to the one Church founded by Christ - from the Catholic perspective, at least.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

How do you explain the obvious life of Christ in non-Catholic christians?, answer that first.

God does not hold against someone what they do not know through no fault of their own. The Catholic Church has consistently acknowledged that the Holy Spririt moves amont those who bear the name Christian. The Church does not abandon those persons based upon something they never knew. However, for those of us fortunate enough to have and hold the Catholic faith, we know through grace that this is a reference to the Eucharist. Our failure to respond to that gift of grace will have serious repercussions. Similarly, non-Catholics who receive the grace to understand what this is teaching should respond to that grace and seek to keep His commandments.

…The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)
…

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

I hope this helps you to see that the Church does not condemn those who are outside of its visible boundaries, and indeed acknowledges that they are not spiritually dead, simply because their faith tradition may deny the teachings on the Eucharist, or simply because their faith tradition lacks a validly ordained priesthood. More reason for all of us to pray… that all would be one.

Peace,
Rober

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Using the NKJV, I find 42 verses dealing with salvation, not one of them mentions baptism as a requirement.

1 Pet. 3:21 “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,…”

tevans9129:

If, our salvation depended upon baptism, would you not think the Lord would have made it very clear? He mentions other issues, why would baptism not be one of them?

Yes. The Lord does make it very clear. “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’” Jn. 3:5. Seems pretty clear he is referencing baptism.
tevens9129:

If, a person believes in his heart and makes the confessions as commanded in the verses listed above but for whatever reason, cannot be baptized for a period of time, do you believe that God is going to send that person to hell?

No. There is the biblical notion that God does not count against a person something that is not their fault. If a person repents and believes the gospel, but for some reason beyond their control dies before they can be baptized, their desire for baptism is sufficient. God is not a “gotcha” kind of God. He is much bigger than that. He gives us the sacraments to help us, not as a trap.
tevens9129:

OK, what does he say is the reason for repenting and being baptized? Is it for salvation, or, to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

“Baptism… now saves you.” (1 Pet 3:21, supra) Seems pretty clear that scripture is saying baptism is necessary for salvation.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I agree that it does matter as to what church one belongs to, however, the question was, “Is church membership needed for salvation”? The intentions of your statement are not perfectly clear to me.

First the question, what is your definition of “the church”?

Can you provide scripture that supports that contention?

What scripture states that rejecting a church is a “mortal sin”?

It appears to me that Matthew says that every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, except, blasphemy against the “Holy Spirit”, in any age.

Matthew 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Do you have scripture that makes the same argument about the church?

OK, would you care to provide the scripture references that you believe supports your view and I will provide the ones that I believe supports my view?

I cannot quote scripture that clearly states that it is not possible, but I do not see how. If one does not love God, why would they wish to be saved in the first place and from what?

Would you provide the reference that makes that assertion Joey, I have not been able to find anything that says loving others is a pre-requisite for salvation. Are we to love others as Jesus loves us, absolutely. Why, because it is a command of Jesus, John 15:12,17 and others.

Well, I must confess that loving some sure seems like work for me but I am not sure that Jesus would consider that as works. To me, loving others is a command for those of us that are saved, no different than any other commandment, such as not committing adultery, making oaths, loving our enemies etc.

So how do we show our love for Jesus, John 14:21 says,

“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

Are we to have His commandments and keep them before we are saved, where does scripture say that?

OK, can you explain to me then if we must do “works” for salvation, in addition to believing, confessing our sins, and calling on Jesus to be our Lord and Saviour, how can it not be considered as “earning” it?

One additional item, there are 42 verses in the NKJV that speaks of salvation, not once is doing works, or being baptized, stated or implied as a prerequisite for salvation. Why do you think Jesus would not mention something that is so important to our eternal life anywhere in scripture?

I appreciate your comments Joey, some I can agree with, some I cannot.

Bear

PS It is not my intention to ignore anyone’s post on this subject, I am trying to respond in order of the post. Thanks

Church membership is necessary for salvation, meaning you must be part of the Catholic Church to be saved. The Catholic Church is made up of all who are baptized in the name of the trinity, believe in Jesus, and love others and God. My definition of church varies. I guess in some contexts it can refer to a denomination, the Catholic Church headed in Rome, the entire Body of Christ, or to a specific parish. I agree with you that any sin can be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. But basically that means (atleast I think it means) that if you continually reject the Holy Spirit and don’t repent, you can’t be saved. Off the top of my head for faith alone, I can think of James 2:24, Matt. 7:21-24, but not for OSAS. Your response to my question about love seems to refute what I consider faith alone, but maybe you have a different definition? If love is necessary for salvation, then it isn’t faith alone (atleast the way I see it). About the works: I’m sure there are many places on Catholic Answers that explain it better than I, but I’ll try to explain it to you. We cannot earn salvation/God’s grace. God gives us his grace freely. God’s grace transforms our lives and changes our hearts when we accept His grace (the ability to accept his transforming grace is in itself grace, which is for a different forum), which makes us perform good works. Good works are necessary for salvation, but don’t earn it, because without works you can’t be saved. you can’t be saved without works because God’s grace isn’t working in you, so to get back your salvation you must repent. You seem to think works are only attempts to earn your salvation (which is very understandable because I believed that about 1 year ago!), but works can also be a result of the Holy Spirit working in you. In order to stay saved, you must cooperate with the holy Spirit by letting him work through you (performing acts of love in faith). Based on what I have read from your responses, what you believe about salvation sounds pretty Catholic to me!

Note: I will try to get back to you with quotes from Scripture soon. I just need a little time first. Thanks for your patience.

Joey

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Paul was writing to the Philippian church, which I think one could plausible conclude were believers. If that being the case, they were already saved, however, would Paul not want to encourage them to become more like Christ. After all, he said to work “out” your salvation, he did not say work “for” your salvation.

Actually, the word “out” does not appear in the original text, it reads, “work your salvation with fear and trembling”.

Even better. Remember that Catholics and Protestants agree that it is grace that saves, and that grace is a free gift. It is our faith that makes us justified (in right relationship) with God. “Working” your salvation means we exercise our new life in Christ, like we would physically exercise for the good of our material bodies and muscles. What happens if we fail to work our muscles (which we received as a free gift in a sense from our physical parents)? The muscles atrophy until eventually they are eventually useless. So it seems is that initial justification would be rendered useless without our “working” our salvation.

tevans9129:

Now, I have given an explanation for 2:12, would you give me yours for Acts 16:31 where Paul and Silas answered the jailers question as to what he must do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Without this initial belief (faith), one cannot be saved. The text does not imply that the salvation of the guards (and certainly not their entire households) will be completed and finished immediately upon the belief of the guards. Rather, this speaks of an initial justification - a placing of one in right relationship with God.

tevans9129:

Now, do you suppose that Paul would have taken them “that hour” and baptized them had he not believed they were saved?

Yes. He would have taken them and baptized them because it initiates them into the Church, is effective for the remission of sins, and gives grace to the recipient.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Answering Bear’s questions.

What scripture states that rejecting a church is a “mortal sin”?

We know what a mortal sin is from 1 Jn. 5:16 - basically a rejection of God. We are the body of Christ (1 Co. 12:12-31), and Christ is the Head of the Body (Eph 4:15-16). So if we reject the body, we reject the head (Luke 10:16). Jesus prayed for unity (John 17), and the apostle Paul wrote about it (Eph, 4:1-6, 14-16). There are 2 concepts of the Church - invisible and visible. Both are true. However, how is unity shown to the world? Invisible or visible? Visible! Christ prayed for unity so that the world would know we are Christians, and since the world doesn’t understand the concept of the invisible church, he must’ve been praying about visible unity. Christ gave us the Catholic Church (Matt. 16:18) so that we may not be “blown here and there by every wind of eaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men” (Eph. 4:14 NIV). So if the Catholic Church is the visible body of christ, then rejection of it is a rejection of Christ, as rejection of the body of christ is a rejection of christ.

OK, would you care to provide the scripture references that you believe supports your view and I will provide the ones that I believe supports my view?

Sure:

Faith alone: James 2:14-26, Romans 1:5, 16:26, Matthew 25:31-46, Hebrews 12:14, Revelation 2:23, 1 Corinthians 13:2,7,13, Matthew 22:34-40, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, etc.

Once Saved Always Saved: 1 Timothy 1:19, 1 Timothy 4:1, 1 Timothy 5:8, 1 Timothy 6:10, John 15:1-11 (stay saved), Philippians 2:12-13, Hebrews 10:19-36, etc.

There are more verses than these, but I hope that this is a start. One thing to understand with not believing in OSAS, we don’t “fear” our entire lives hoping we are saved, because we know we are saved by the Holy Spirit working in us. We can only lose the Holy Spirit by rejecting him.

As for loving others = loving God, I think 1 John 4:7-5:5 does a pretty good job of this.

To your (possible) surprise, works are mentioned atleast once when speaking of salvation: “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that worketh in you” (Phil. 2:12-13). So if there are only 42 verses (I’m positive there are more, unless those Anglicans changed the Bible ) in the KJV referring to salvation, atleast one of them talks about “doing works” for salvation (NOT earning salvation though).

Joey

 

[tevans9129]

Tevans-I really am quite interested in how you feel comfortable using the Bible for your knowledge of how to be saved when it is clear that the very group who compiled the Bible thinks you’re wrong?

OK, I will try to explain and hopefully in a way that will not offend anyone. If the “group” that compiled those scriptures thinks that I am wrong, then why not use the scriptures that “they” compiled to show me that I am wrong?

To me, it is quite simple, I do not think it mandatory to belong to a named church, i.e., RCC, Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist etc as a pre-requisite for salvation. Therefore, if I am wrong, all one must do to change my mind is to quote the scriptures from the Bible, or the original text stating that membership is required for salvation, and, to explain the verses that I have quoted that says differently. That is not saying that I do not believe that it is important to belong to a Bible believing church, because I do.

It’s a question that has bugged me for some time as I have many friends who are not Catholic who believe in the “Bible alone” and the thought process just doesn’t make sense to me. Why trust the Catholic church got it right?

Well, that makes us kind of even, it does not make sense to me when one has difficulty using the Bible that their church claims responsibility for, to prove the teachings of that church.

Personally, I do not buy into the RCC starting with Peter, and I am not saying that to be offensive. There were many churches started by the Disciples of Christ not just Peter. I believe that I am correct that they were known as Christians, not Catholics. Just as there were different churches, by name, in the first century, as there are today. If one believed in and was a follower of Christ, was he not referred to as “Christian”? I believe in and I follow Christ, at least to the best of my ability, therefore, am I not a Christian? If you contend that all Christians are Catholic, then call me whatever you wish. I am a Christian, according to many verses in the Bible that you say came about because of Catholics.

It says in Acts 11:26, “…And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.”

Again in Acts 26:28 the word Christian is used,

"Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”

Even Peter refers to “Christians” in 1 Peter 4:16,

“Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian…”

How many verses can you quote that one is referred to as a “Catholic”?

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia,

“The combination “the Catholic Church” (he katholike ekklesia) is found for the first time in the letter of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written about the year 110.”

Jesus did not use the word Catholic, His disciples did not use the word, in fact, it appears no one did until 110 AD. Why do you suppose that something that seems to be so important for so many was not mentioned by Jesus?

If the church in your opinion gets so many things wrong isn’t it quite likely they’d get what books to put in the cannon quite wrong as well?

Possibly, but the argument is, why can you not prove some of the teachings of the CC with the same Bible as they compiled, can you answer that?

Thanks for expressing your views and listening to mine, however, I think we have moved way off topic of the original thread. I suggest our other interest be pursued in new threads, would you agree?

God bless.

Bear