Is Atheism a philosophy of selfishness?

[Angels_Eyes]

Jesus Rocks

:extrahappy:He sure does!

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

While he is living an atheist brazenly says, “There is no God.”
On his deathbed he says, “I hope there’s no God.”

 

[empther]

Atheism is selfishness in the sense that the atheist tries to escape feeling guilty for his sins, and wants to do whatever he wants without worrying about punishment.

Shakespeare wrote about an atheist in Macbeth. Lady Macbeth seems to make no reference to God, unlike Macbeth himself who at least acknowledges that his soul will be lost: “my eternal jewel given to the common enemy of man”.

Macbeth returns to Lady Macbeth with word that the three witches predicted he would be king. Any other person would ask questions about the witches, “What did they look like?” etc, but not Lady Macbeth. She has no interest in the supernatural. Instead, she concentrates on urging Macbeth on to killing the king to become king himself.

Macbeth worries, “What if we fail?” Lady Macbeth answers, “We must not think of these matters. It will drive us mad.”. Don’t worry about consequences. Seize the moment. Take what you can get by whatever means.

After Macbeth kills the king he becomes a ruthless serial killer. He no longer has any interest in Lady Macbeth. She is no longer effective as wife, companion, hostess, or any of the ‘offices’ that make a woman what she is. She had even done the very opposite of what a woman is supposed to do: gently guide her husband to Heaven. She is alienated from her own self because she has denied what she was created to be.
It is parallel to Macbeth’s alienation from himself. “I dare do all that becomes a man. Who dares do more is none.” he says early in the play when he and Lady Macbeth are comtemplating killing the king. Later, he is no longer a man but a serial killilng monster. He has killed himself before he dies.

But, Lady Macbeth’s fatal flaw is that she has imagination, which Macbeth does not. He never things about his victims, but Lady Macbeth does and it drives her mad. In the sleepwalking scene she says: “The Thane of Fife had a wife. Where is she now?” The wife was another of Macbeth’s murder victims. Having renounced God, and cut herself off from grace, Lady Macbeth cannot know where the murdered wife is now.

Despite rejecting God, never giving a thought to the afterlife in the entire play, and being completely unscrupulous,** Lady Macbeth cannot escape her own God-given conscience**. She commits suicide.

 

[Gorgias]

Atheism does not place the individual on a pedestal any more than theistic faith does.

Hmm… but, in the absence of a telos to the universe, doesn’t atheism place the individual at the center of his (subjective) universe?

It is erroneous to suppose that without a supernatural lawgiver, there is no motivation for compassionate, altruistic action.

That’s reasonable, inasmuch as it allows for the existence, objectively, of compassionat altruistic action. Yet…

What it does allow is that humans have enough worth, in and of themselves and to each other, to influence positive action without divine intervention. Perhaps our value is not, after all, some objective and universal standard, but then it doesn’t need to be in order to provide us with the necessary impetus for moral action.

So, then… on what do you base the judgment of the intrinsic worth of human life? (Just curious…)

What would that impetus for moral action be?

In short, atheism offers a life without cognitive dissonance.

LOL… you went from reasonable to judgmental in a split second – congratulations; maybe there’s hope for you to be a believer yet! (Seriously, though – that leap from “no divine creator” to “no cognitive dissonance” doesn’t necessarily follow! Isn’t there the reasonable counter-claim that, in the absence of proof, the leap from “no divine creator” to “existing universe – with sapent human life” difficult to maintain?)

 

[tonyrey]

1. Not believing in god is not a philosophy.

 

[Perplexity]

If one doesn’t choose what to believe or not to believe one is irrational…

It seems to me the consensus in philosophy is that belief is involuntary, so much so that Schellenberg was able to make this one of his assumptions in his celebrated Divine Hiddenness. You don’t do that unless it’d be uber strange for someone to object to it. Be that as it may, here’s one line of reasoning for agreeing:

(1) If we could decide to believe things, we would know that we chose the beliefs we chose.

(2) If we knew that we chose a belief, we would know that it was determined by our choice, not by how things are.

(3) If we knew that a belief was determined by our choice, not by how things are, we would not believe it.

(4) Therefore, belief is involuntary.

 

[Candide_West]

If one doesn’t choose what to believe or not to believe one is irrational…

It’s odd, I hear people claiming that you can choose what you believe, but this seems to be against all the evidence.

How about you give it a go Tonyrey and let us know how it goes. Tomorrow morning, “choose” to believe that Christianity is wrong and that Hinduism is correct. Then in the afternoon “choose” to believe that neither is correct and there are no Gods at all. Then “choose” to switch back to believing in Catholicism in the evening.

Be careful that you don’t just pretend to believe in each position, you must hold each belief in sequence as strongly as you currently hold your belief in Christianity.

If you can do that then fair enough, I’ll certainly grant that you are indeed able to choose what you believe. You will also be (in my experience at least) unique.

Let me know your results.

 

[empther]

(1) If we could decide to believe things, we would know that we chose the beliefs we chose.

(2) If we knew that we chose a belief, we would know that it was determined by our choice, not by how things are.

(3) If we knew that a belief was determined by our choice, not by how things are, we would not believe it.

(4) Therefore, belief is involuntary.

The usual atheist nonsense from Perplexed Perplexity.

We choose to seek knowledge. When we find the truth as we understand it we believe, but we chose to go looking for the truth.

Since science cannot prove God does not exist, and atheism can’t explain the universe,
atheism cannot be seen as the truth, but only something somebody wants to believe for personal reasons.

 

[Perplexity]

We choose to seek knowledge. When we find the truth as we understand it we believe, but we chose to go looking for the truth.

This is precisely what I’m suggesting. Belief is involuntary, but our acquaintance with information can certainly be voluntary. This is why some are said to be intellectually dishonest: they deliberately choose not to consider evidence against their position, lest their belief waver.

Since science cannot prove God does not exist, and atheism can’t explain the universe, atheism cannot be seen as the truth, but only something somebody wants to believe for personal reasons.

Translation of Empther’s argument:

1. If science cannot disprove God’s existence, and atheism can’t explain the universe, then atheism is false.
2. Science cannot disprove God’s existence and atheism can’t explain the universe.
3. Therefore, atheism is false.

No one should accept (1). Science’s inability to disprove God’s existence, and atheism’s inability to explain the universe wouldn’t falsify any premise in a serious (as opposed to intentionally humorous) argument for atheism.

 

[Langdell]

Is Atheism a philosophy of selfishness?

I think for most people who are intentionally atheists, their atheism is not a result of selfishness. When I was an atheist, the other atheists I spoke with seemed to fall into two large groups:

1. People who like to know the reasons for things and who have thought themselves into a corner where atheism or agnosticism seems to be the only rational view. I fell into this group.
2. People who had had bad experiences with religious folk (e.g., someone raised by abusive parents who justified their abuse with religious texts) and became atheists as a reaction to those bad experiences.

I don’t think either group becomes atheists out of selfishness. However, selfishness may play a role in why a person who’s been an atheist for a while is reluctant to consider becoming a believer. I know that in my own case, the idea of having to give up porn held me back somewhat when I was thinking of returning to Christianity.

 

[Gorgias]

(1) If we could decide to believe things, we would know that we chose the beliefs we chose.

Hmm… that we could decide doesn’t necessarily imply that we would necessarily know about it.

This approach seems to deny the role of the subconscious mind; by definition, it operates beyond our conscious knowledge. But, it does make choices – that is, we make choices – of which we are not aware consciously.

(2) If we knew that we chose a belief, we would know that it was determined by our choice, not by how things are.

There are more options than “choice” and “how things are”. This seems to deny the nature of subjective experience. “How things are”, for us as finite, sensory beings, cannot be construed as pure objective reality. We might construct a notion of objective reality, extrapolating from our experience, but in doing so, haven’t we already muddied the waters of “choice” and “how things are”?

(3) If we knew that a belief was determined by our choice, not by how things are, we would not believe it.

Absurd. We believe based on the (name removed by moderator)uts we’ve received and the use of our reason. “Our choice” – that is, the results of our rational thought – are the basis of our belief!

(4) Therefore, belief is involuntary.

No – therefore, your argument doesn’t hold.

 

[Semper_Zelare]

1. Catholicism offers nothing to society, but the work of individual Catholics does. Same with atheists. There have been many intellectual, ethical, scientific, and medicinal contributions from atheists.

You know what is selfish though? Generalizing a huge group of people based on your experience.

You need to read the book: How the Church Built Western Civilization.

Also, you could watch this 2 minute video:
youtube.com/watch?v=swKs2QQU4IA

The Catholic Church’s contributions to intellectual, ethical, scientific and medicinal fields are all greater than those of atheists.

The Catholic Church founded the college system and has around 120 colleges in the U.S. ALONE, how many atheist colleges are there? The Catholic Church helps more AIDS victims in Africa than ANYONE ELSE. The Catholic Church provides 20% of all healthcare, and that’s only in 1 country, in India for instance, 40,000 nuns provide 20% of healthcare for 1.1 billion people. (only 2% of whom are Catholic).

Yeah, the Catholic Church offers NOTHING to society. What a load of hooey.

 

[Semper_Zelare]

Subjectivity is not necessarily subject to conscious choice.

What’s more, if you flesh it out slightly…depending upon a supposed higher power to dictate your moral judgements can be seen as abdicating your responsibility.

It can’t be abdicating responsiblity… if you have no responsibility.

You are a sinner, and I am a sinner. We cannot make moral judgments ourselves. Because we are all innately evil.

Now, every atheist can call themselves a good person. But, its only because they determine morality based on their own fallible experiences. Christians don’t believe you can be a “good person”… that is a relative comparison based on judging others. “well I’m better than everyone in prison…” NO YOU ARE NOT, YOU ARE JUST AS BAD AS THEM.

Here’s a list of 48 mortal sins… if you disagree with even 1 that’s because you’re choosing selfishness and evil over good.
saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

And, on this day of the March of Life; obviously abortion is an evil. If you have an abortion or support abortion you are not a good person.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It can’t be abdicating responsiblity… if you have no responsibility.

You are a sinner, and I am a sinner. We cannot make moral judgments ourselves. Because we are all innately evil.

Now, every atheist can call themselves a good person. But, its only because they determine morality based on their own fallible experiences. Christians don’t believe you can be a “good person”… that is a relative comparison based on judging others. “well I’m better than everyone in prison…” NO YOU ARE NOT, YOU ARE JUST AS BAD AS THEM.

Here’s a list of 48 mortal sins… if you disagree with even 1 that’s because you’re choosing selfishness and evil over good.
saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

And, on this day of the March of Life; obviously abortion is an evil. If you have an abortion or support abortion you are not a good person.

So you don’t just think that atheists are selfish and evil, you think all non-catholics are. Nice outlook.

Sorry, but I don’t use birth control because I’m choosing to be evil and selfish. I use it because want to protect myself and my fiance from hurting our futures by having a child we aren’t ready for.

If I believed in a god I may see a reason not to. But having never felt the presence of a god or seen any evidence of one, despite trying so hard to believe for over two decades, its a bit hard for me to buy in to the no ABC thing.

And you are no better than I am.

 

[tonyrey]

While he is living an atheist brazenly says, “There is no God.”
On his deathbed he says, “I hope there’s no God.”

After he dies he says, “My God, why didn’t I believe in You?”

To which there are various answers…

 

[grannymh]

It is important to remember that any philosophy does not change human nature itself.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

If the universe exists for no reason, then it is true that the universe exists for no reason other than because it just does. What definition of truth are you working from here?

Care to explain how within the universe the “Four Causes” are absolute but when taking the universe as a whole, you leave out the last two (efficient and final causes)?

 

[tonyrey]

It’s odd, I hear people claiming that you can choose what you believe, but this seems to be against all the evidence.

If a choice is rational it is not arbitrary but the result of reflection…

 

[tonyrey]

It seems to me the consensus in philosophy is that belief is involuntary, so much so that Schellenberg was able to make this one of his assumptions in his celebrated Divine Hiddenness. You don’t do that unless it’d be uber strange for someone to object to it.

Belief may be involuntary but if it is rational it is the result of reflection.

.

Be that as it may, here’s one line of reasoning for agreeing:

(1) If we could decide to believe things, we would know that we chose the beliefs we chose.

(2) If we knew that we chose a belief, we would know that it was determined by our choice, not by how things are.

Non sequitur. If it is a rational choice it is determined by our decision to be rational** and** to accept what we consider to correspond to reality.

(3) If we knew that a belief was determined by our choice, not by how things are, we would not believe it.

A false dilemma.

(4) Therefore, belief is involuntary.

Invalid conclusion!

 

[Semper_Zelare]

So you don’t just think that atheists are selfish and evil, you think all non-catholics are. Nice outlook.

Sorry, but I don’t use birth control because I’m choosing to be evil and selfish. I use it because want to protect myself and my fiance from hurting our futures by having a child we aren’t ready for.

And you are no better than I am.

Um, no… I think that all people are innately evil. That is a central tenet of all Christian denominations, but for some reason most people aren’t aware of that. And, to me, because so many people are ignorant of this… it makes a lot of atheists sound like they don’t have a clue what they’re talking about.

Did you see when in the post where I said “I am a sinner” “we are innately evil”. Yes, every single person on Earth is a sinner. Sin is the same as evil. The only way people are saved isn’t because they are good, its by the grace of Christ.

Being a good person is a non-sequiter in Christian theology. We don’t strive to be good people, we strive to serve Christ.

I completely agree that I’m no better than you are. Did you read my post? Both you and I are just as bad a child rapists and murderers. We are all sinners.

So, try not putting words in my mouth next time. Becuase I regard this:

BlueEyedLady:

“So you don’t just think that atheists are selfish and evil, you think all non-catholics are. Nice outlook.”

as an abominable heresy against God and His Holy Church.

Atheists know Christianity as a straw man.
You honestly are accusing me of thinking “I’m better than everyone because I’m Catholic.”

Get a clue about the Catholic Church. Get a clue. Your post couldn’t be further from the truth.

P.S. You must’ve missed these words in my post:

We are all innately evil