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SueG
Guest
Black Jaque:
:tsktsk:
:tsktsk: 
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C
C_S_P_B
Guest
In an Old Testemant Jewish marriage, one of the things a husband was specifically to provide to his wife was sex.
Also look up Corinthians chapter 7. His body does not belong to him but belongs to his wife. If he witholds what he gave to her in front of God, family and friends on his wedding day, it is a serious matter.
He entered into a Covenant with his wife. This is much more than a contract. He needs to fulfill his sacred duty because he is depriving his wife of a Sacrament.
Also look up Corinthians chapter 7. His body does not belong to him but belongs to his wife. If he witholds what he gave to her in front of God, family and friends on his wedding day, it is a serious matter.
He entered into a Covenant with his wife. This is much more than a contract. He needs to fulfill his sacred duty because he is depriving his wife of a Sacrament.
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cargopilot
Guest
Hi Kathy,Since when is making love to your spouse a “job”?
~ Kathy ~
I was recanting the conversation between a couple of guys who have had a few beers. I’m hoping you can gimmie a break. I regret that the discussions among ‘buddies’ can become a little less than PC, but that’s just the way it is. I was trying to provide an accurate portrayal of the discussion.
But isn’t describing our obligation to the marital act as a ‘job’ really an accurate, if simplistic, representation of it’s importance? Just because it’s a job, doesn’t mean one has to hate it, and could actually be positive. I love my job…I’d almost do it for free. To me ‘job’ isn’t a bad word.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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cargopilot
Guest
Black Jaque:
You mean like this?:whacky: Or, like this?
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SueG
Guest
Being “pretty Catholic” and drinking 5 beers with a buddy really doesn’t go together. Also, talking about something THAT personal with a friend instead of praying about it or consulting a priest doesn’t sound truly religious. Sorry, but I’ve been on both sides of that street. Most of my Catholic friends or their hubbies got sterilized after a few kids, present company included. Now I’m praying and working to undo the damage.Going to weekly mass, sending kids to Catholic school, wearing a crucifix does not make a “good Catholic”. (You shall know them by their fruit.) For years, I was guilty of punching my Sunday timeclock and then I put God on the shelf for another 6 days unless I needed Him.
Well, I’ll end my rant on that subject, but in my circle of friends and relatives, divorce for the reason where they no longer “feel” love or attraction for the other can be traced back to their use of contraception and/or sterilization. I’ve even heard (on Catholic radio) about a scientific study on gorillas where the female was placed on birth control. The males began to avoid her and began to “interact” with each other instead.
M
mike182d
Guest
Did you know that today is July 13, the feast of St. Henry, King of Germany and head of the Holy Roman Empire? Did you know that he preserved virginity in his marriage? Interesting…
However, the difference might be because it was of mutual consent.
However, the difference might be because it was of mutual consent.
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cargopilot
Guest
SueG said:
Going to weekly mass, sending kids to Catholic school, wearing a crucifix does not make a “good Catholic”. (You shall know them by their fruit.) For years, I was guilty of punching my Sunday timeclock and then I put God on the shelf for another 6 days unless I needed Him.
Well, I’ll end my rant on that subject, but in my circle of friends and relatives, divorce for the reason where they no longer “feel” love or attraction for the other can be traced back to their use of contraception and/or sterilization. I’ve even heard (on Catholic radio) about a scientific study on gorillas where the female was placed on birth control. The males began to avoid her and began to “interact” with each other instead.
Hi SueG,
Yes, you’re right. Drinking five beers with a good friend isn’t the mark of a good Catholic. You see, I am a sinner. I’m not proud of that, and I have to celebrate the sacrament of reconciliation regularly.
You’re also right, good, close and dear friends of many years should never discuss something ‘THAT’ personal. We should always limit our discussions to small-talk of sports, airplanes or cars.
For your edification, I did ask my friend about the use of ABC, to which he replied, “no, never”. I’d like to add that my wife and I do not use ABC, either. I would agree that such use probably does increase divorce, as well as reducing the ‘drive’ of the users. In this case, you’ll probably have to keep looking for another explanation of why he avoids/refuses the marital act.
Before you ask, I will point out that it is VERY unlikely that either one of them has ever cheated. In spite of your warnings of discussions of such a personal nature, he would have probably revealed that to me and/or his wife would have revealed that to my wife. Yes, they too, have discussions of a personal nature. Further, my wife usually tells me everything.
I’m afraid that he has lost interest in her simply from years of marriage, combined with her weight gain. Both of our wives have put on a few pounds. Both of us really can’t, as the nature of our jobs requires fitness for regular medical exams. He happens to be more sensitive to her weight, than I am. Personally, my wife’s weight isn’t really a factor. To me, she’s quite ‘comfy’. I would never ask her to diet or work out, as mentioned by other posters. I’d be afraid that would hurt her, and I wouldn’t want to hurt her, particularly for something that doesn’t matter to me.
In general, I think that husbands should forget about their wives weight, just love them for what they are, and ‘get busy’.
N
NFPfamily
Guest
:clapping:Hi SueG,
Yes, you’re right. Drinking five beers with a good friend isn’t the mark of a good Catholic. You see, I am a sinner. I’m not proud of that, and I have to celebrate the sacrament of reconciliation regularly.
You’re also right, good, close and dear friends of many years should never discuss something ‘THAT’ personal. We should always limit our discussions to small-talk of sports, airplanes or cars.
For your edification, I did ask my friend about the use of ABC, to which he replied, “no, never”. I’d like to add that my wife and I do not use ABC, either. I would agree that such use probably does increase divorce, as well as reducing the ‘drive’ of the users. In this case, you’ll probably have to keep looking for another explanation of why he avoids/refuses the marital act.
Before you ask, I will point out that it is VERY unlikely that either one of them has ever cheated. In spite of your warnings of discussions of such a personal nature, he would have probably revealed that to me and/or his wife would have revealed that to my wife. Yes, they too, have discussions of a personal nature. Further, my wife usually tells me everything.
I’m afraid that he has lost interest in her simply from years of marriage, combined with her weight gain. Both of our wives have put on a few pounds. Both of us really can’t, as the nature of our jobs requires fitness for regular medical exams. He happens to be more sensitive to her weight, than I am. Personally, my wife’s weight isn’t really a factor. To me, she’s quite ‘comfy’. I would never ask her to diet or work out, as mentioned by other posters. I’d be afraid that would hurt her, and I wouldn’t want to hurt her, particularly for something that doesn’t matter to me.
In general, I think that husbands should forget about their wives weight, just love them for what they are, and ‘get busy’.
I just wanted to clarify that in my post about getting back in shape, that it was me who wanted that. My hubby never commented in any way that I should do that. I was unsatisfied with my fitness level at that point and wanted to get fit so I felt better. I just wanted to emphasize that it takes a good, supportive husband to do that. He is cheering me on, but never makes me feel like I have to do it to satisfy him or anything. I agree that we should be accepting of our spouses in any condition, and of course, ‘get busy!’
D
dwc
Guest
I don’t know. Honestly, isn’t men’s sexuality highly visual in nature? If so, if he no longer finds his wife attractive due to excess weight, is his failure to be attracted sinful? Obviously, one would hope that the love of one’s spouse would overcome this, but I could see how it would be possible to still love your spouse but no longer be sexually attracted. If one is not sexually attracted, how does one force themselves to have marital relations – and even if you somehow do, is it authentic if it’s something you’re forcing?
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SueG
Guest
Cargo…
Thanks for your patient reply. I sincerely thought that contraception was the root of most marital problems. Or maybe that’s just mine. :ehh: Hey, I personally believe that any couple not contracepting these days are saints!
Well, if there are no pretty girls at the job turning his head, and there’s no pornography involved, and there’s no contracepting, then he could just be suffering the effects of brainwashing. In a world that convinces you constantly that skinny is better, that physical beauty is something to pursue, you’d have to be a robot to be able to filter that out. Even though deep-down we know that spiritual beauty is the only worthwhile pursuit, years of conditioning can’t be ignored.
Maybe they could go to Eucharistic Adoration together? If he hasn’t already, he should turn off the tv–constant mind-control going on there. Also, has he prayed daily for the grace to “feel” love for his wife? Gotta be specific with God sometimes.
NFPFAMILY posted “It is wonderful to explore the spiritual side of the sexual union and to begin to see it as it should be- a renewal of the marriage covenant.” I AGREE! I liken this whole situation to the Wedding Feast at Cana where the Good Wine (the spiritual side of sexual union) was served after the other wine (the physical “worldly” side of sexual union) was gone.
Thanks for your patient reply. I sincerely thought that contraception was the root of most marital problems. Or maybe that’s just mine.
:ehh: Hey, I personally believe that any couple not contracepting these days are saints!Well, if there are no pretty girls at the job turning his head, and there’s no pornography involved, and there’s no contracepting, then he could just be suffering the effects of brainwashing. In a world that convinces you constantly that skinny is better, that physical beauty is something to pursue, you’d have to be a robot to be able to filter that out. Even though deep-down we know that spiritual beauty is the only worthwhile pursuit, years of conditioning can’t be ignored.
Maybe they could go to Eucharistic Adoration together? If he hasn’t already, he should turn off the tv–constant mind-control going on there. Also, has he prayed daily for the grace to “feel” love for his wife? Gotta be specific with God sometimes.
NFPFAMILY posted “It is wonderful to explore the spiritual side of the sexual union and to begin to see it as it should be- a renewal of the marriage covenant.” I AGREE! I liken this whole situation to the Wedding Feast at Cana where the Good Wine (the spiritual side of sexual union) was served after the other wine (the physical “worldly” side of sexual union) was gone.
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dwc
Guest
Well, this is a little off the issue, but there’s a big difference between “skinny” or “beautiful” and having let oneself go. It’s unfair to infer that the man is totally shallow and must want a skinny beautiful model type just because he is no longer attracted to his wife. I’m assuming from the original post that this isn’t a situation of normal aging and wear and tear, but a case of excessive weight gain and not taking care of herself. My point is that if things have gotten to the point where he is no longer sexually attracted to his wife, he’s not intentionally witholding sexual relations and isn’t wilfully sinning.
The original question was whether he was sinning, and posters just quoted the catechism and concluded he was sinning and should just get busy. That seems pretty disrespectful of him because it assumes he is a sexual automaton who just performs on demand, whether or not he has underlying feelings.
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cargopilot
Guest
Hi SueG,Cargo…
Thanks for your patient reply. I sincerely thought that contraception was the root of most marital problems. Or maybe that’s just mine.
Well, if there are no pretty girls at the job turning his head, and there’s no pornography involved, and there’s no contracepting, then he could just be suffering the effects of brainwashing. In a world that convinces you constantly that skinny is better, that physical beauty is something to pursue, you’d have to be a robot to be able to filter that out. Even though deep-down we know that spiritual beauty is the only worthwhile pursuit, years of conditioning can’t be ignored.
Maybe they could go to Eucharistic Adoration together? If he hasn’t already, he should turn off the tv–constant mind-control going on there. Also, has he prayed daily for the grace to “feel” love for his wife? Gotta be specific with God sometimes.
NFPFAMILY posted “It is wonderful to explore the spiritual side of the sexual union and to begin to see it as it should be- a renewal of the marriage covenant.” I AGREE! I liken this whole situation to the Wedding Feast at Cana where the Good Wine (the spiritual side of sexual union) was served after the other wine (the physical “worldly” side of sexual union) was gone.
Thank you for your post. And yes, I believe you’re right about the brainwashing, as none of those other things you mentioned are a factor.
I implied that she ‘just let herself go’. That may have been an somewhat of an overstatement, but true, to some extent. She really is a fine, devoted wife. Anybody would be so lucky to have her as a wife. Age has, as it does on all of us, taken it’s toll. I just happen to be less critical about such matters than he tends to be.
I’m happy to report, thanks to the kind posters on this forum, tons of material found on the net, as well as his Priest, he has had a chance examine his own conscience, and found that, yes it IS, without a doubt, a very serious sin to avoid/deny marital relations to one’s spouse, that HE is/was the problem, and that he was most certainly mistaken to think that she didn’t care, or miss the embrace. Father recommended Marriage Encounter, and they will attend a weekend. My wife reports that his wife has said he has ‘gotten very busy’, lately.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
It would appear that if everyone simply followed the teachings of the Church, as closely as they can, that the divorce courts would be out of business.
T
turboEDvo
Guest
SueG said:
I know that drinking with my friends isn’t my style (I don’t drink, and probably won’t even when I’m 21), but how is it sinful to drink a few beers and chat with a friend about something like this? How do we know this didn’t lead to pray time or a talk with a priest?
Eamon
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Siena
Guest
Cargo-
One last thing, if you would please tell your friend. This is a very sensetive subject for me, and perhaps for her as well. My husband has a hard time taking his mind off his work long enough to think about me “in that way” much of the time. Even when I go to the effort of dressing myself up, or trying to look “sexy”, he still hardly notices, and never says anything to comment on my nice apperance. (I too, have gained some weight, and the 4th childs baby weight is still not going anywhere, but I can still make myself up to be very attractive) What I found is that over time (we are approaching 10 yrs of marriage) I stopped caring to look nice to/for him. If he didn’t notice when I looked good, would he notice when I looked frumpy? No makeup- baggy clothes? The answer was no. Over time, his rejection, physically and intimatly, wore down much of my self esteem, and made it easier to “let myself go”, especially around the house (stay at home mom). (I am working on looking nice for me- it was starting to lead to some symptoms of depression)
If your friends wife was feeling physically/emotionally rejected already, this could have started a snowball effect where she concluded her looks didn’t matter, and continued to let things go- a little at a time, until she ended up here.
Make sure your friend does 2 things for his wife- 1, tell her he loves her (and why), and 2, find something about her apperance that he truly does like- and compliment her on it. Women take rejection (physical and emotional) VERY seriously, and VERY personally.
(Make sure he apologizes for his behavior, and if financially possible- take her out shopping for some nice, well fitting clothes (shoes, and new makeup too, if possible) Nothing helps a woman feel like looking good than new, well tailored clothes! And if she feels so good she looses some weight- great! More new clothes! )
Thanks!
One last thing, if you would please tell your friend. This is a very sensetive subject for me, and perhaps for her as well. My husband has a hard time taking his mind off his work long enough to think about me “in that way” much of the time. Even when I go to the effort of dressing myself up, or trying to look “sexy”, he still hardly notices, and never says anything to comment on my nice apperance. (I too, have gained some weight, and the 4th childs baby weight is still not going anywhere, but I can still make myself up to be very attractive) What I found is that over time (we are approaching 10 yrs of marriage) I stopped caring to look nice to/for him. If he didn’t notice when I looked good, would he notice when I looked frumpy? No makeup- baggy clothes? The answer was no. Over time, his rejection, physically and intimatly, wore down much of my self esteem, and made it easier to “let myself go”, especially around the house (stay at home mom). (I am working on looking nice for me- it was starting to lead to some symptoms of depression)
If your friends wife was feeling physically/emotionally rejected already, this could have started a snowball effect where she concluded her looks didn’t matter, and continued to let things go- a little at a time, until she ended up here.
Make sure your friend does 2 things for his wife- 1, tell her he loves her (and why), and 2, find something about her apperance that he truly does like- and compliment her on it. Women take rejection (physical and emotional) VERY seriously, and VERY personally.
(Make sure he apologizes for his behavior, and if financially possible- take her out shopping for some nice, well fitting clothes (shoes, and new makeup too, if possible) Nothing helps a woman feel like looking good than new, well tailored clothes! And if she feels so good she looses some weight- great! More new clothes! )
Thanks!
O
otm
Guest
Yeah, if it were pints; but if it is one of those 8 ouncers, that’s 40 ounces; or a little over three pints. Over a night of talk, that is not going to make you stewed prunes…That’s a lot of beer!
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SueG
Guest
Perhaps it’s just my experience, but when I used to drink, I was just a nominal Catholic. Since my faith and devotion has increased and I’ve become (IMO) “pretty Catholic”, five/six beers would be indulging in drunkenness. (I’m sure you know what St. Paul said about that little vice.)
Sorry if I’m reading too much into the “pretty Catholic” label. Sounds like we’re guilty of not being on the same page as far as our understanding of the terminology. In my nominal days I resorted to other humans when I had a problem. I’ve since learned to turn to God in prayer first (and priest if necessary) before other humans.
I hope I explained my point of view better this time.
P
Pug
Guest
Good news! I hope it works out for them.
I agree, and think we’d be better off if somehow the young couples understood what marriage is all about before they marry (is that possible?)
M
MrS
Guest
Black Jaque:
and all the “problems” would have been solved
Or maybe after six beers his wife would have looked so good that…
and all the “problems” would have been solved
O
otm
Guest
I may be wading in where I am not needed, but it would appear that you are female; 5 to 6 beers in a three hour (evening from 7 to 10) session probably would be a bit much, given that in general, women weigh less than men and the result is a higher blood/alcohol ratio. A 180 lb. man simply has more blood than a 120 lb. woman. Keeping that in mind, and assuming this was a long evening session, rather than a couple of jocks “pounding” in a short sesion, it is not likely they were drunk by a common language usage; whether they could pass a sobriety test may be another issue.
I don’t disagree at all with your statement of turning to God in prayer. We all should, and all too many think a prayer life means saying grace before all meals.
I do, however, take issue with your comments about not turning to other human beings; last I recall, Paul has a number of statements, starting with his reflections that we are the Body of Christ, and further reflections on how we are to build one another up. That doesn’t sound to me as a prohibition to talking with another human being. If anything, it strikes me as saying that we have a duty to listen to someone who is having a problem; and we can’t listen if they don’t talk.
I would also take issue with the comment about going to a priest first, for at least two reasons. An older priest, in his 60’s or more, was trained in moral theology according to the “manual”. While it helped to parse a sin down to it’s finest ramifications, it also gave a rather mechanistic, legalistic, and nominalist approach to moral theoloegy. That is to say, an older priest could say that there is no sin; the husband is not committing adultery, he is not engaging in self-abuse; he is not beating her or using overt psychological manipulation. He brings home the paycheck and is kind to her; he’s just not having sex and that is not a sin (as the manual would define it).
A priest younger than that, say to mid to late 40’s is more likely not to really wnat to talk about sin at all, and may or may not be trained sufficiently in either psychology or counseling to pick up on the probelms at hand.
A young priest is probably the last person this guy is ghoing to want to talk to because he is too young, in unmarried, or doesn’t have the trust level built that this guy can bare what are some fairly initmate issues.
The whole question of sinfulness in this situation is much more subtle than most of the black and white issues we are familiar with; adultery, fornication, self-abuse, homosexuality, rape, etc.
The issue can be framed in terms of “marital right”, but that is going to leave a bad taste in most people’s mouth; reducing the complexities of the intimacy between husband and wife - something far more complex than coitus - to a “right” just isn’t speaking a language that has meaning and content. Further, it is a language that is too often used the other way - concerning a woman who is either disinterested in coitus, or repelled by it.
If we are going to speak of sin, we need to remove it from the language of legal acts (or illegal) and put it in its true context; that of relationship.
And as far as relationships go, to put it in the terms used by the warden in Cool Hand Luke: “What we have here is a failure to communicate”. Coitus isn’t the issue, it is the symptom. The issue is that they have not had intimate (and I don’t mean sexually oriented) conversation for a long time. I’d lay bets he hasn’t told her that he loves her - let alone why, or in what areas - for a long time. Flowers? Nope. A box of chocolates? Nope again. A surprise dinner out? Same response. A card? A phone call in the middle of the day saying he was thinking of her? No. In other words, no romance. Romance isn’t about sex; it is about communication. Romance is saying “you’re really special to me, and I want to let you know”.
Sadly, we almost always reduce it to a means to coitus.
S
SueG
Guest
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