Is Avoiding/Refusing Marital Relations a Sin?

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Wow, I’d forgotten all about this thread. I’m surprised good ol’ Black Jaque remembered it, and NFPfamily linked to it. It looked like NFPfamily searched it out using keyword ‘beers’. It’s just great to know that this pilot is rembered by his beer drinking.:rolleyes: Rest assured, it’s always at LEAST eight hours between the bottle and the throttle.

My ol’ bud and his wife are still doing fine. We get together often, the wives do their thing, and we hangar-fly in the garage.

It’s hard to miss the contrasts between this tired old thread, and some of the others like, or the since removed, sexless marriage. It seems that the old ‘double standard’ that men are so often accused of having, also appears in the females. It appears over and over again, that when the less-generous partner is the wife, it is commonly held that the husband is obviously doing something, or everything wrong. Further, he has no right to expect marital relations from his wife, unless she is all-willing. In fact, such husband’s are often accused of marital rape and worse, both here and in real life.

When the tables are reversed, and the husband is the less-generous partner, it seems much easier to offer swift and harsh admonition of his lack of interest in the marital act, along with deep caring and sympathy for the wife who is ignored by her husband. I can’t help but wonder why some of that same support and sympathy couldn’t be offered to the husbands in situations such as this?
 
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Celeste88:
As far as infrequent sex being a mortal sin, I don’t think God would force someone to have sex if they can’t or don’t want to!
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Right!
I’m thinkin’ husbands and wives are flesh and bones
not…
http://photobucket.com/albums/y188/ginnyroc/th_ann.jpg

or

http://photobucket.com/albums/y188/ginnyroc/th_pincushion.jpg
 
I think a history of sexual abuse can be very damaging to a person sexually. If such a person, refuses sexual relations it probably wouldn’t be a mortal sin because free consent is impaired.
 
I would have to agree with you about that. Certainly, abuse could reduce the sinfulness of refusing the marital act and even invalidate the very marriage.

One could also argue that the person who entered into a marriage armed with that self-knowlege, and knowing what marriage is all about, should not enter into marriage at all. Having self-knowlege of such abuse, also knowing that it was so severe that it would make marital relations repugnant to the point that it becomes necessary to routinely refuse the innocent spouse’s request would indicate to me that the marriage was never a valid marriage.

By the same token, it would appear that the innocent spouse wouldn’t have free consent either. In other words, it would appear that the innocent spouse would also be a victim of impaired consent, thereby lessening the sinfulness of resorting to forcing marital relations, acts of masturbation or adultery. The whole thing can nose-dive into a smoking hole, taking an entire innocent family down with it. At some point, BOTH spouses have to take responsibility for the care of the other.

It seems that the abuse-excuse is most often cited as the reason to refuse the marital rights. It’s so often cited, that IMO, it ties the old ‘medical reasons’ for using the pill.
 
One could also argue that the person who entered into a marriage armed with that self-knowlege, and knowing what marriage is all about, should not enter into marriage at all. Having self-knowlege of such abuse, also knowing that it was so severe that it would make marital relations repugnant to the point that it becomes necessary to routinely refuse the innocent spouse’s request would indicate to me that the marriage was never a valid marriage.
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I think part of the problem here is that some individuals with a history of abuse sometimes refuse to acknowledge it. Therefore, they enter marriage without that self-knowledge, and they may not inform their partner about their past. It may well cast doubt on the validity of the marriage, partly because they lack a proper understanding of what marriage is.

I could be wrong here, but I think it is also true that we really don’t understand the full effects of sexual abuse and what can be done to treat it. From my limited experience, it can be quite debilitating in certain aspects of an individual’s life. What makes things worse, is that when people refuse to acknowlege the problem, which can cause the innocent spouse to just give up on certain aspects of the marriage, including the sexual relationship.
 
Good morning Cargopilot…

I have just recently discovered this CA Forum…

This thread, which was begun by you last year,
has certainly been an interesting read for me.

Ten years ago my wife, of 27 years, divorced me.
We had five children together and the youngest,
a boy, at the time, was sixteen.

She had frozen me out two years prior to divorce
and I, being thick as a cedar log, and busy as
all get out trying to support our family, as a house
painter missed most of the signals.

Things went from bad to worse quickly and all
communications went to static. The divorce was
quick and fairly painless. I gave her pretty much
all the assets… and we went our separate ways.

My part of the problem was lack of support for
her, tenderness and acknowledging what an
awesome mom she was. I was a very hands on
available dad, fortunately.

Her part of the problem was a very visible and
vocal lack of respect for me, directly and in front
of the children. She often would openly discount
suggestions I made for things concerning our
children.

My reaction… I just shut down and went into my
mental attic.

Neither of us has remarried or gotten close to it.
I’ve continued to pray for her and her spiritual,
emotional, financial and physical well being…
Unfortunately she now has a pulmonary fibrosis which is a progessive disease with no cure. She is very overweight, cannot work, is turning 59 and still has quite an edge about her.

The five children (3 married with 2 grands) live
nearby… They are very supportive and loving to
their mom.

As far as advice to younger marrieds goes… I put
it in terms of gardening. I’ve worked at a cactus
nursery for 6 years now… When we get married
we have started a garden of love. In that garden
love needs to grow. The water in this garden is
kindness, respect, gentleness, patience, forgiveness, tenderness, faithfulness and self
control. As in any garden, weeds will still creep in,
but a well watered garden is easy to weed… lots of
moisture!!

As new plants arrive on the scene… children… the
spouses need to remember to continue to water
their own plot. It’s good for them and good for the
children to observe how this whole garden of love
thing works, practically.

On the one hand, I’m still saddened by the failure of
our marriage. On the other hand, I’m grateful that
I no longer live with a very discontented wife who
so thoroughly rejected me and disrespted me.
I am the first to admit that I was quite diserving of
some of these behaviors, at times. But not 24/7.

Putting this in the perspective of being Catholic…

Jesus said that we need to “abide in Him.” St. Paul
shows what abiding in Christ produces, in chapter
5 of Galatians… A branch that abides in the Vine
bears this kind of fruit… “Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness,
Faithfulness and Self Control.” Paul went on to say
that no Law is needed for those who walk in the
Spirit. They don’t need a law because the Spirit of
Christ fulfills the law in the believer… the law of Love…

Finally… gardening in the garden of love can be
exhausting sometimes. Many outside elements, out
of our control, assault and assail it… hail, drought,
wind, etc. With God’s presence in the garden,
these attacks can be thrwarted as the couple puts
their trust in Him. Tha’ts why Paul warned us to
marry believing spouses!

Paul also warned believers of the Three Pronged
attact agains the church and families (smallest units in the church). The world, the flesh and the devil.
Two of these have been addressed in this thread,
of over 80 posts… The devil, our archenemy, the
father of lies, the angel of light, the destroyer, has
not been mentioned. He hates God and he hates
a successful marriage where children are brought
up on God’s love and light. His workers will put
extra effort into destroying these gardens of love.

Paul gives us a good insight into our defense
against such assault… in Ephesians 6… The
Whole Armour of God… It’s a good read! He
is addressing a body of believers who are to help
each other put on this armour for the spiritual
war we are engaged in.

It is my firm belief that when a couple enters into
marraige in the sight of God and believing witnesses
they are entering into warfare, spiritually speaking.
Once the honeymoon is over an entire array of
things will be brought to bear against this couple,
in their attempt to live godly lives and bring forth
godly children.

Wow… I never intended to write such a long post… If anyone has read this far I hope you’ve
received something of encouragement.

Blessings in the Name of Christ our Lord,

Jack
 
Since when is it a good idea to give out spiritual direction (especially by a lay person who is in no way qualified) especially under the influence of alcohol?
 
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stinkcat_14:
I think part of the problem here is that some individuals with a history of abuse sometimes refuse to acknowledge it. Therefore, they enter marriage without that self-knowledge, and they may not inform their partner about their past. It may well cast doubt on the validity of the marriage, partly because they lack a proper understanding of what marriage is.

I could be wrong here, but I think it is also true that we really don’t understand the full effects of sexual abuse and what can be done to treat it. From my limited experience, it can be quite debilitating in certain aspects of an individual’s life. What makes things worse, is that when people refuse to acknowlege the problem, which can cause the innocent spouse to just give up on certain aspects of the marriage, including the sexual relationship.
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I believe you under estimate yourself, or perhaps you’re just modest. To me, it sounds as if you’re exactly right, and your “limited experience” isn’t so limited. I believe you have a solid handle on this.

As anyone who has ever beaten an addiction, habit or some other behavior issue knows, the hardest part is simply admitting that they, themselves, are the solution. They have to admit that no one but them, can resolve the problem. The prevailing attitude appears that, insofar as this thread, and other similar threads are concerned, the innocent spouse simply has to understand and accept that marital relations will be refused. Further, they must also be in perfect control of their own needs and desires. Any sinful behavior that the innocent spouse resorts to is their own fault, and thus begins the downward spiral and ultimate breakdown of the entire family.

Assuming the ‘offending’ spouse has denial issues, how the ‘innocent’ spouse deals with it is the key. The charity, mercy OR sinfulness lies in what the innocent spouse does next. Realizing that we’re all sinners, he/she needs to address the situation before he/she also falls into sin. So what is the so-called innocent spouse supposed to do when faced with habitual refusal/avoidance of marital relations? How would positive responses differ for male and female ‘offenders’?
 
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MercedesBents:
Since when is it a good idea to give out spiritual direction (especially by a lay person who is in no way qualified) especially under the influence of alcohol?
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I’m assuming you’re referring to me as the drunken lay-person, dispensing spiritual direction. 😉 I have to admit that in addition to “giving out spiritual direction”, I also avail myself to lay-personel for such direction.

Where I’m from, Priests are in very short supply, so everyone doesn’t get their own personal spiritual director. Also, where I’m from, good friends of many, many years, can freely discuss matters of a very personal nature. Often, such friends do discuss such matters over alcoholic beverages. For those of us who aren’t ‘tea-totalers’, it’s not such an uncommon thing for good buddies to do.
 
It’s one thing to “hash things over”; it’s quite another to inform someone that he’s commiting a mortal sin after **you’ve ** downed 5 beers.

A shortage of priests doesn’t automatically convey the qualification for spiritual advisory on you. Maybe your friend needs to get in his car and go some distance to get some good, sober spiritual advice from someone with the proper training.
 
I myself think drinking all those beers…

Then someone mentioning that perhaps the problem would go away if just one more beer was drank…tastless humor.

Not too Catholic.

I would think that one not having sexual relations with their spouse, if the spouse wanted sexual relations, for any reason - is selffish. Martial relations is not about “getting” but “giving” (and procreating from a Catholic point of view).

Just my 2-bits.
 
I’d sure like to get a few beers into his wife and hear HER side of the story. Should be fascinating, sincere there ARE two sides of every story.
 
Thank you for your helpful comments about my qualifications. It’s refreshing to receive your positive and helpful remarks. I am just a sinner, and I know that. It must be nice to so free from sin that you are able to offer such charitable help to those of us who need it so.

I enjoyed reading some of your other posts on this forum, especially this one. Again, I want to thank you for your kind and thoughtful words.
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MercedesBents:
It’s one thing to “hash things over”; it’s quite another to inform someone that he’s commiting a mortal sin after **you’ve **downed 5 beers.

A shortage of priests doesn’t automatically convey the qualification for spiritual advisory on you. Maybe your friend needs to get in his car and go some distance to get some good, sober spiritual advice from someone with the proper training.
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Now that my beer drinking faults have been fully explored, could I redirect interest to my earlier question?

What is the so-called ‘innocent’ spouse supposed to do when faced with habitual refusal/avoidance of marital relations? How would positive responses differ for male and female ‘offenders’?
 
So…what does his wife have to say about all this? You still don’t know what her side of the story is.
 
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cargopilot:
There are times, then, when a married person, in consideration for their spouse’s inability to perform the sexual act, should say no to the desires of the body. In this situation, love and respect for the other would respond with a spirit of self-control.
This came from Sister Mary Lucy’s ‘Acute Awareness in Examining Our Consciences’ article,
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I think this says what the response of the innocent spouse should be.
If there’s no physical reason for the refusal, I would think that they should definitely look into getting help – counselling.
If the problem is insurmountable, the innocent spouse needs to decide whether he or she can live a celibate life in marriage. If there are children involved, a great effort should be made to rescue the marriage.
Remember, a marriage is assumed by the church to be valid; it isn’t invalid until somebody decides they want out of it and can produce a reason.
 
Thanks Cargo. Just a reminder to be cautious with complimenting me. I’m trying to convey a guy-in-a-black-hat image on these boards; a sort of shoot from the hip machismo. You start referring to me as “good ol’” too often and the board moderators will make me change my moniker to “White Jaque”. Just plain “Ol’ Black Jaque” will suffice.
😉

Boy, I’ll bet you didn’t expect to be rided for your quasi-alcoholism when you started this thread. Next time, you’d best hyper-inflate the quantity of beers. That way when the teetotallers respond with such heated venom the foul-language censoring software will prevent them from posting. Or maybe we’ll just have a code like “tea” but always in quotes.

Example:
We were dishcushing mortal Theolgoggy over a keg of “tea”. After about the 8th ice-cold “tea”, my buddy confeshesh to me…
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That way the rest of us guys will know exactly what you’re referring to, but we’ll have no fear of being blasted for our particular choices in beverages.

Actually though there may be some similarities to this double-standard feminism and alcoholism. When a husband is an alcoholic, the wife is doing him no favors by lowering her expectations. By insisting that he get up and go to work, the demands of his duties will force him to face his troubles. If, however the wife, let’s him sleep on the couch, and goes out and gets a job herself - she is known as an “enabler”.

Could the same apply to a person who has a cold spouse? In other words could the “innocent spouse” be enabling the frigid spouse by not putting pressure and expectations on them?
 
So…what does his wife have to say about all this? You still don’t know what her side of the story is.
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Mercedes, before you get all bent out of shape over this thread, perhaps you should read the entire thread. Or at least the beginning. You’ll find the her side of the story IS known, and that she is NOT the offender, and that a priest WAS consulted.
 
BlackJaque and Cargo…

Please don’t get me wrong, here… but you guys
are in good company… Your eldist brother, in
the faith, Jesus, was called to task for a similar
offense…

Here’s how St. Matthew put it into words…

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.” Matt 11

Imagine… Jesus sitting around the table,
discussing important issues of sin and salvation
with the great unwashed, sipping on glass of real
red wine!!! Scandalous!!!

Up in the Diocese of Chicago there is a program
which began there to connect with wayward
Catholics in college. It is called… “Theology on Tap.”
The meetings often have beer on tap as college
kids discuss Christ and the church. It has
evidently been very fruitful in leading many to
the Lord and changed lives! (Wisdom is justified
by her children.)

In the future, I think the ice tea beverage might be
the better approach, considering the sensitivities
of some posters… 😉

CactusJack 👍
 
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