Is capitalism a special form of slavery?

[GEddie]

Basic education isn’t expensive.

Not particularly.

But to provide it, a higher than basic level of education is needed. This requires bringing in people from outside the poor area, who often don’t want to stay there. Or send natives of the poor area outside to be schooled, who then, [DUH] don’t want to go back [/DUH!]

Even in poor areas of nonpoor countries, brain drain is s very real factor. Getting kids from poor world areas relocated to already overcrowded big cities is not an outcome worthy of world charity.

THE USA IS NOT THE WORLD’S PARENT
We are not responsible to feed, educate and provide healthcare to citizens in every other country in the world. We can and do help train their doctors and nurses, but we shouldn’t staff and fund all their medical infrastructure.

On that, + 1.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Robert_Sock]

I think certain people on this thread need to read the bible and then explain to me why we are exempt from doing all we can to combat poverty. What does “love your neighbor as yourself” convey to you? It’s not a request from Christ, but a commandment that we are all meant to follow. To ignore it is to risk going to Hell!!

 

[Theo520]

Clearly you have never spent any time in developing countries. You have no idea what type of road system is sufficient.

Actually I have, spent many years living in what people call 2nd and 3rd world countries, in the Pacific and Central America. How about you?

Infrastructure projects always require some level of economic justification, otherwise they’re just a pork project for the politically connected.

Legitimate projects get funded from the responsible Govt, sometimes with help from the World Bank or one of the numbers regional development banks (ADB, IFAB, CAF, AIIB, CDB, AfDB, etc. etc.). Roads are proportionally cheaper to build in 3rd world countries, they are affordable with such project backing.

I would agree that most countries have sufficient resources for basic education. However, they often lack the resources for education that provides the training necessary for job skills that facilitate economic growth.

I doubt you can back that up. Factories readily hire trained engineers in Costa Rica, the Philippines, and other developing countries. Guatemala has more serious problems that aren’t fixed by donating $ to their universities.

I wish you would follow your motto and stop making claims that are not supported by facts. How do you know I have not spent any time in developing countries? If your motto is correct and “facts matter”, then show me your facts. Prove that your claim that I have never spent time in developing countries is true.

I apologize if my guess was wrong, in which developing countries have you spent time working/living?

As a guy named Ronald used to say: “There you go again”. I never said it was the United States responsibility to solve the worlds problems. However, as Christians, we have an obligation to the least among us. Perhaps that is why in my profession, some of my work is actually in developing countries. It is not because it is financially lucrative, I would make more money working at home. But we do not relieve ourselves of our responsibility to the least among us, including the least halfway across the world by saying they have bad governments so their poverty is their problem.

Yes we have a responsibility to help our neighbors, but that requires actually helping them. There is far too much grandstanding of people thinking they are helping people around the globe when their immediate neighbor needs their attention. If other countries have corrupt leadership then that should be the focus of our Govt’s actions. Helping the individuals within such countries is likely best achieved through religious ministries that also focus on the hearts and minds of their citizens. I’ve never once criticized the actions of CRS.

FYI, CRS recognizes this and supports the existing development banks to do as they are designed, fund the appropriate large scale development projects.

We can do a lot of things to help. As Christians we have an obligation to. One can debate the appropriate path to help them, but we cannot as Christians just turn our backs and say it is their problem.

As noted above, perhaps we should set a better example and focus on our immediate neighbors, then encourage our more distant contacts to do likewise.

Recognizing which aspects of aid done in the past that have failed or worked is not unchristian, it’s being smart about what you do.

 

[GEddie]

The rich man in Luke 16 was not faulted for not going to Peraea, or Egypt to look for poor people to help. He was confronted with Lazarus, a poor man who had been in his life.

Methinks instead of worrying about “the world”, which, really, we can no more affect than we can push it along its orbit, we should pray for the grace to see the need around our life that we can partially alleviate. If God later entrusts us with great means, we can then concern ourself with great needs.

ICXC NIKA.

“Love afar is spite at home.” — Thoreau

 

[Theo520]

Capitalism sure does promote materialism which many are addicted to. It’s this addiction that then promotes power, prestige and greed.

No, human nature promotes materialism, which many are addicted to. Capitalism is simply a method of trade. Fixing prices simply creates a black market where appropriate prices for trade are established.

If you want people to be more spiritually inclined, then you must focus on spiritual education. It’s not about economic systems of trade and pricing.

 

[Robert_Sock]

No, human nature promotes materialism, which many are addicted to. Capitalism is simply a method of trade. Fixing prices simply creates a black market where appropriate prices for trade are established.

If you want people to be more spiritually inclined, then you must focus on spiritual education. It’s not about economic systems of trade and pricing.

Just turn on the TV or radio and wait for a “commercial.” and you will be enticed by attractive females who are pushing things material; sex and materialism go hand in hand when it comes to pushing a materialistic product. Pride, power, prestige, sex and greed are made implicit in advertizing.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Actually I have, spent many years living in what people call 2nd and 3rd world countries, in the Pacific and Central America. How about you?

I have worked in East Africa, mainly Ethiopia, with some time in Southeast Asia, mainly Thailand.

Infrastructure projects always require some level of economic justification, otherwise they’re just a pork project for the politically connected.

Legitimate projects get funded from the responsible Govt, sometimes with help from the World Bank or one of the numbers regional development banks (ADB, IFAB, CAF, AIIB, CDB, AfDB, etc. etc.). Roads are proportionally cheaper to build in 3rd world countries, they are affordable with such project backing.

I agree that infrastructure needs economic justification. The problem is, when you are capital constrained, there are often more profitable projects than there are funds available.

I doubt you can back that up. Factories readily hire trained engineers in Costa Rica, the Philippines, and other developing countries. Guatemala has more serious problems that aren’t fixed by donating $ to their universities.

The university grads definitely do get jobs. I am talking about the mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc. Developing countries often put little money towards training in these areas where the skills are needed (and the costs are relatively low) and often too much is spent on trophy items like medical schools. The problem is, in some countries there is the limit to the number of people who are allowed to finish high school, so additional training is mostly ignored for this group.

I apologize if my guess was wrong, in which developing countries have you spent time working/living?

Yes we have a responsibility to help our neighbors, but that requires actually helping them. There is far too much grandstanding of people thinking they are helping people around the globe when their immediate neighbor needs their attention. If other countries have corrupt leadership then that should be the focus of our Govt’s actions. Helping the individuals within such countries is likely best achieved through religious ministries that also focus on the hearts and minds of their citizens. I’ve never once criticized the actions of CRS.

FYI, CRS recognizes this and supports the existing development banks to do as they are designed, fund the appropriate large scale development projects.

As noted above, perhaps we should set a better example and focus on our immediate neighbors, then encourage our more distant contacts to do likewise.

I agree that we need to limit ourselves to things that actually help our neighbors. That is why I am not saying we need lots of government aid to other countries. That tends to be inefficient. That said, China is investing a lot in Africa and one has to wonder about their motives. I do wonder whether the US ought to try and counter that a bit. But as a matter of philosophy I am not a fan of most foreign aid.

Recognizing which aspects of aid done in the past that have failed or worked is not unchristian, it’s being smart about what you do.

I agree.

 

[Theo520]

I have worked in East Africa, mainly Ethiopia, with some time in Southeast Asia, mainly Thailand.

For myself I’ve worked/lived in China, Korea, Philippines, Malaysia, Costa Rica, & Guatemala. Only been to Thailand on vacation, nice country though.

I agree that infrastructure needs economic justification. The problem is, when you are capital constrained, there are often more profitable projects than there are funds available.

Apologies, I may have mixed up your positions with another poster here.

The university grads definitely do get jobs. I am talking about the mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc. Developing countries often put little money towards training in these areas where the skills are needed (and the costs are relatively low) and often too much is spent on trophy items like medical schools. The problem is, in some countries there is the limit to the number of people who are allowed to finish high school, so additional training is mostly ignored for this group.

While the issue is real, I don’t see how foreigners can play a constructive role beyond supporting market forces. When good plumbers or mechanics are in short supply, wages rise and more young people peruse it as a career path. We still haven’t figured out how to get our own disadvantaged segments to achieve a solid foundation of education.

I agree that we need to limit ourselves to things that actually help our neighbors. That is why I am not saying we need lots of government aid to other countries. That tends to be inefficient. That said, China is investing a lot in Africa and one has to wonder about their motives. I do wonder whether the US ought to try and counter that a bit. But as a matter of philosophy I am not a fan of most foreign aid.

Again, I was probably responding to the sentiments of another poster here (my bad)

China is providing development aid for the strings that are attached. If they fund a dam, power plant, or road complex, then the project is required to use Chinese turbines or heavy equipment to execute the project. Much of Gov Dev Aid by 1st world countries comes with such strings attached, to drive export sales for conglomerates back in the home country. It’s hard to compete with the Chinese in Africa since their strings are more affordable, even if the quality suffers.

 

[Theo520]

Just turn on the TV or radio and wait for a “commercial.” and you will be enticed by attractive females who are pushing things material; sex and materialism go hand in hand when it comes to pushing a materialistic product. Pride, power, prestige, sex and greed are made implicit in advertizing.

Yes, advertising preys on human lusts and appetites. The way to combat them hasn’t changed though since the Bible was penned, it’s through spiritual growth. A man of mature spirit doesn’t covet his neighbor’s wife or possessions.

Conversely, not allowing advertising (your position?) won’t prevent a man from coveting a younger woman or his neighbor’s possessions.

I think a better title for this thread would be “Are the 7 deadly sins a special form of slavery” since they better depict your core argument.

 

[YADA]

It will be a sacrifice to begin with, and people like Bill Gates and the World Bank are very involved, but the goal is self sufficiency that could be established in a few generation with education. But everybody on this planet would eventually benefit with a much larger workforce. With the growth of higher education, technology could grow tremendously.

You blame the West an Capitalism for all the 3rd worlds woes … this is just patently false …

In the early 1980s my father went to Somalia with USAid - a federally funded program that your tax dollars paid for … what did he do … he helped build a foundry and trained Somali’s in its operation … all paid for by me, you and the tax payers … All of this was to provide for economic growth and prosperity … to help build industry and end poverty …

Well civil war, tribalism and socialism ruled the day … I doubt is there is an operational foundry in all of Somalia …

This has played out all over the 3rd world …

Federal assistance and private charities have spent billions od dollars trying to end poverty in Africa and around the world … much of the food stores gets coopted by War Lords and corrupt politicians - never reaching the people who so desperately need it.

I have traveled to Mexico and Guatemala on medical and other humanitarian assistance missions - I have seen a vast amount of racism and discrimination perpetuated by the citizens an governments of these countries against their fellow citizens or non-citizen migrant workers [this is very common in Mexico - the country that lectures the US on immigration policy].

Have you ever gone and worked to end poverty overseas? Have you gone to see and experience the realities of failed governments in these countries with high poverty?

The Franciscan Priests in one area of Mexico I visited to work lectured us constantly on not handing out "gifts of goods, food or money’ to the inhabitants of the migrant farm camps - They said its the worst and almost a hateful thing to do - because the people loose self respect and the desire to work to lift themselves from poverty … they subsist on handouts and their lives loose purpose and meaning … He said it is very sad when Christians come onto their area and want so much to make a difference in a positive way - only to have their “Charity” be one of the root causes of poverty …

 

[Monte_RCMS]

WAWA = West Africa Wins Again

Expression of sheer frustration experienced by people working there.

 

[Theo520]

WAWA = West Africa Wins Again

Expression of sheer frustration experienced by people working there.

I think much of our foreign aid should be focused on indoctrination and establishment of ‘rule of law’. A community/society believing in and respecting the law seems the missing link in most 3rd world countries. I don’t know how this would be accomplished but it’s the foundation stone for nation building. I expect we could figure it out, if it was the focus.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You blame the West an Capitalism for all the 3rd worlds woes … this is just patently false …

In the early 1980s my father went to Somalia with USAid - a federally funded program that your tax dollars paid for … what did he do … he helped build a foundry and trained Somali’s in its operation … all paid for by me, you and the tax payers … All of this was to provide for economic growth and prosperity … to help build industry and end poverty …

Well civil war, tribalism and socialism ruled the day … I doubt is there is an operational foundry in all of Somalia …

This has played out all over the 3rd world …

Federal assistance and private charities have spent billions od dollars trying to end poverty in Africa and around the world … much of the food stores gets coopted by War Lords and corrupt politicians - never reaching the people who so desperately need it.

I have traveled to Mexico and Guatemala on medical and other humanitarian assistance missions - I have seen a vast amount of racism and discrimination perpetuated by the citizens an governments of these countries against their fellow citizens or non-citizen migrant workers [this is very common in Mexico - the country that lectures the US on immigration policy].

Have you ever gone and worked to end poverty overseas? Have you gone to see and experience the realities of failed governments in these countries with high poverty?

The Franciscan Priests in one area of Mexico I visited to work lectured us constantly on not handing out "gifts of goods, food or money’ to the inhabitants of the migrant farm camps - They said its the worst and almost a hateful thing to do - because the people loose self respect and the desire to work to lift themselves from poverty … they subsist on handouts and their lives loose purpose and meaning … He said it is very sad when Christians come onto their area and want so much to make a difference in a positive way - only to have their “Charity” be one of the root causes of poverty …

I refuse to give to the homeless here in America because the money often goes to alcohol or drugs, so I can relate somewhat to what you say, but I do give to Catholic charities who have been around for a while and know how to truly help out. The same goes for industry and education. If I had the cash I would not simply build schools, but give the money to organizations, like UNESCO, who have close ties to the governments of the world and know how to produce long lasting results.

 

[graciew]

I refuse to give to the homeless here in America because the money often goes to alcohol or drugs, so I can relate somewhat to what you say, but I do give to Catholic charities who have been around for a while and know how to truly help out. The same goes for industry and education. If I had the cash I would not simply build schools, but give the money to organizations, like UNESCO, who have close ties to the governments of the world and know how to produce long lasting results.

It was already kind of you to bring these issues about poverty foward.
We may not always present the perfect case,the perfect solution nor the perfect system, but kind gestures keep hope alive . So thanks!

 

[Theo520]

I refuse to give to the homeless here in America because the money often goes to alcohol or drugs, so I can relate somewhat to what you say, but I do give to Catholic charities who have been around for a while and know how to truly help out. The same goes for industry and education. If I had the cash I would not simply build schools, but give the money to organizations, like UNESCO, who have close ties to the governments of the world and know how to produce long lasting results.

Sock, several of us have inquired about your first hand experience in 3rd world environments. It seems a fair question considering your strongly stated positions on what we should do to help their poor… So, what’s your background in this regard?

Regarding UNESCO, I like their purpose but I don’t know how effective they are. I appreciate how they work to publicize and preserve world heritage sites

To fulfill its mandate, UNESCO performs five principal functions :

1. 
   *]Prospective Studies : what forms of education, science, culture and communication for to morrow’s world?
   *]The advancement, transfer and sharing of knowledge : relying primarily on research, training and teachig activities.
   *]Standard-setting action : the preparation and adoption of international instruments and statutory recommendations.
   *]Expertise : provided to Member States for their development policies and projects in the form of “technical co-operation”.
   *]Exchange of specialized information

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Came across this today.

youtube.com/watch?v=S3sN9KDEfXY&nohtml5=False

 

[Robert_Sock]

Sock, several of us have inquired about your first hand experience in 3rd world environments. It seems a fair question considering your strongly stated positions on what we should do to help their poor… So, what’s your background in this regard?

Regarding UNESCO, I like their purpose but I don’t know how effective they are. I appreciate how they work to publicize and preserve world heritage sites

My only experience with true poverty was when I took a trip to Mexico, I also gained special knowledge of poverty in the world through a political science course I took at UCLA. The rest of my knowledge comes from trusted, third party sources, like missionaries.

 

[GEddie]

My only experience with true poverty was when I took a trip to Mexico, I also gained special knowledge of poverty in the world through a political science course I took at UCLA. The rest of my knowledge comes from trusted, third party sources, like missionaries.

So you received some progressive propaganda as part of your college education. Methinks before you continue browbeating everybody else, it doth behooveth you to gain some more eyes-on knowledge of the issues.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA

 

[Robert_Sock]

So you received some progressive propaganda as part of your college education. Methinks before you continue browbeating everybody else, it doth behooveth you to gain some more eyes-on knowledge of the issues.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA

How many courses on poverty did you take? To say that’s it’s all propaganda is to live in denial. Do you believe that extreme poverty is real? Were my eyes deceiving me when I visited Mexico? Why do you call my posts “browbeating?”

 

[GEddie]

How many courses on poverty did you take? To say that’s it’s all propaganda is to live in denial. Do you believe that extreme poverty is real? Were my eyes deceiving me when I visited Mexico? Why do you call my posts “browbeating?”

I never took any courses specifically about poverty. Didn’t need to.

Prior to college, I lived in sight of the so-called third world; in childhood, I lived in the third world. Yes, they have it rough in parts of MX. It also gets worse.

I didn’t need to buy an $89.00 textbook to learn that there is such a thing as world poverty.

No, your eyes weren’t deceiving you in MX; indeed, there is probably more truth in such an experience than in a class at a liberal college.

Brow-beating was possibly an unkind word and I apologize.

ICXC NIKA