Is capitalism a special form of slavery?

[Robert_Sock]

Perhaps you should jump on a plane and spend several years travelling the world.

Maybe then you’ll stop insisting we (west) are responsible for everyone else, that only we can free them to live productive lives.

“Whoever shuts their ears to the cry of the poor will also cry out and not be answered.”
~ Proverbs 21:13

Ezekiel 16:49
Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

1 John 3:17-18
“If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.”

“Life’s prime needs are water, bread, and clothing, a house, too, for decent privacy.”
-Sirach 29:21

Isaiah 58:7-10
Thus says the Lord:
Share your bread with the hungry,
and shelter the homeless poor,
clothe the man you see to be naked
and do not turn from your own kin.
Then will your light shine like the dawn
and your wound be quickly healed over.
Your integrity will go before you
and the glory of the Lord behind you.
Cry, and the Lord will answer;
call, and he will say, ‘I am here.’
If you do away with the yoke,
the clenched fist, the wicked word,
if you give your bread to the hungry,
and relief to the oppressed,
your light will rise in the darkness,
and your shadows become like noon.

Gal 5:13 (Douay Rheims)
13 For you, brethren, have been called unto liberty: only make not liberty an occasion to the flesh, but by charity of the spirit serve one another.

At the end of our life, we shall all be judged by charity. - St John of the Cross.

4A beggar’s request do not reject;
do not turn your face away from the poor.
-Sirach 2

27 He who gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.
-Proverbs 28

 

[stinkcat_14]

Perhaps you should jump on a plane and spend several years travelling the world.

Maybe then you’ll stop insisting we (west) are responsible for everyone else, that only we can free them to live productive lives.

The truth of the matter is that there is a lot we can do. In many developing countries they are starved for capital. That makes it difficult for businesses to be productive. Educational achievement is often poor in these countries, partly due to the fact that they have very limited resources to devote to education. There are ways for those of us in the developed world to help, and as Christians we do have an obligation to the least of those among us.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The current economic system breeds greed, power and prestige, which are all EVIL!!! We need an economic system that caters to those living in extreme poverty; an economic system that invests in the poor by promoting education of all children, and providing decent paying and meaningful, jobs. With 2.4 billion people living on less than $2.00 (USD) per day, can you imagine the strength of an economic system that puts these poor souls to work? Can you imagine the new technologies, increased production and scientific research that could result? This is not a dream or wishful thinking, but a potential reality!

 

[stinkcat_14]

The current economic system breeds greed, power and prestige, which are all EVIL!!!

All economic systems breed greed, power and prestige. There is nothing inherent in capitalism that makes it worse in that regard.

 

[graciew]

The current economic system breeds greed, power and prestige, which are all EVIL!!! We need an economic system that caters to those living in extreme poverty; an economic system that invests in the poor by promoting education of all children, and providing decent paying and meaningful, jobs. With 2.4 billion people living on less than $2.00 (USD) per day, can you imagine the strength of an economic system that puts these poor souls to work? Can you imagine the new technologies, increased production and scientific research that could result? This is not a dream or wishful thinking, but a potential reality!

Robert, I can hear what you are saying about living under poverty line. And there is little to contribute from my limited space but that it does hurt. And words fail.
Sorry not to get into capitalism,it is like I just pray sometimes that God helps me improve the life of just one person and that with much gratitude.
And when everything passes,His word will not pass.
And much much prayer .
Sometimes we can hardly deal with the " micro" …Counting on Jesus always for both " micro" and " macro".
May God bless you and all.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert, I can hear what you are saying about living under poverty line. And there is little to contribute from my limited space but that it does hurt. And words fail.
Sorry not to get into capitalism,it is like I just pray sometimes that God helps me improve the life of just one person and that with much gratitude.
And when everything passes,His word will not pass.
And much much prayer .
Sometimes we can hardly deal with the " micro" …Counting on Jesus always for both " micro" and " macro".
May God bless you and all.

Thanks!

 

[Theo520]

The truth of the matter is that there is a lot we can do. In many developing countries they are starved for capital. That makes it difficult for businesses to be productive. Educational achievement is often poor in these countries, partly due to the fact that they have very limited resources to devote to education. There are ways for those of us in the developed world to help, and as Christians we do have an obligation to the least of those among us.

No, they aren’t starved for Capital.
Programs like the Grameen Bank require very little capital to get going.

We can help with their education system but we can’t fix what they don’t value as a community. Heck, we can’t fix our own education system. Typically, countries that value education don’t need any help.

The real problem is getting them to care about what’s important (or what we think is important). After that, the rest will usually take care of itself.

 

[graciew]

No, they aren’t starved for Capital.
Programs like the Grameen Bank require very little capital to get going.

We can help with their education system but we can’t fix what they don’t value as a community. Heck, we can’t fix our own education system. Typically, countries that value education don’t need any help.

The real problem is getting them to care about what’s important (or what we think is important). After that, the rest will usually take care of itself.

I agree with the importance of education. And you are right,for me.
But it may not be that simple,Theo.
When we say “under poverty line”,persons have a face and a name. And that changes us.
I don’ t know…but it is true that anything can be done for a profit,with zero regard to who is left behind.
And how people take advantage of persons who are vulnerable,or innocent,or naive,that is terrible. And it happens.
You know,there is a limit.
You would not sell the Grand Canyon for a profit ,would you? There is much beauty,much breathtaking beauty to be left in somebody 's hand for a profit for him alone to enjoy.
But we fail to see how much we " sell" ourselves or others for a profit and that hurts.
And we are talking about persons and I am not throwing darts at capitalism,but to all these excesses that,mea culpa also,we fail to see.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Robert,

Do you know where your food comes from?

And how it got to where YOU buy it?

I’m earnestly serious.

Right now, grapes in the market we use come from Chile and from Patagonia.

Visit your local store and look at the labels.

Buy purchasing bananas, you are supporting hundreds of thousands of farmers … for example.

Your money is going to keep those people in the necessities of life.

If someone there wants to paint his house, and they do do that, your money will work its way through the pipeline and that farm worker will get paid and be able to buy the paint.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

The current economic system breeds greed, power and prestige, which are all EVIL!!! We need an economic system that caters to those living in extreme poverty; an economic system that invests in the poor by promoting education of all children, and providing decent paying and meaningful, jobs. With 2.4 billion people living on less than $2.00 (USD) per day, can you imagine the strength of an economic system that puts these poor souls to work? Can you imagine the new technologies, increased production and scientific research that could result? This is not a dream or wishful thinking, but a potential reality!

People in countries oriented around socialism tend to do worse than others.

Similarly people in societies oriented around tribal structures also tend to do worse than others.

People in countries that embrace captialism get raised out of poverty very rapidly.

Capitalism is based on voluntary free exchange of work and products.

Think of which system produces the best access to clean drinking water.

Voluntary associations.

AND you need energy to pump the water.

And cheapest energy is from use of petroleum products.

On a larger scale, the cheapest energy is from use of natural gas.

And on a much larger scale, the cheapest and cleanest energy is from use of nuclear energy.

Each requires education and research.

Which means that the individuals put their personal resources into learning.

And to encourage them, we pay them enough to make it worth their while.

Collective and/or socialism fail.

Capitalism succeeds.

 

[stinkcat_14]

No, they aren’t starved for Capital.
Programs like the Grameen Bank require very little capital to get going.

When farmers are 30 km away from the nearest main road, it makes it difficult to bring their sheep and goats to market. Building roads and rail lines is not something that can be done with microfinance. They are starved for capital and of course, in Africa we see China stepping in to fill the void. Although some of us skeptics wonder what the cost will be.

We can help with their education system but we can’t fix what they don’t value as a community. Heck, we can’t fix our own education system. Typically, countries that value education don’t need any help.

In many countries, the government does not have the resources to support education. So you see a funnel where many people start out in school, but many fewer finish. Parents income is often too low to pay for private school. In a country where the per capita income is $2000, many households spend a large fraction of their income just subsisting.

The real problem is getting them to care about what’s important (or what we think is important). After that, the rest will usually take care of itself.

Personally, I find it difficult to tell a worker who makes $5 a day that he ought to eat less in order for his children to go to school. Or should we tell him not to take his children to the clinic when they are sick. What would you suggest the $5 a day guy cut out of his budget?

 

[GEddie]

So what is the answer?

Private charity is not going to finance school systems for entire countries.

Should hard-working citizens in “nonpoor” countries have more of their wealth taken at gun point (i.e., taxation) so that children in “poor countries” can go to school?

ICXC NIKA

 

[Robert_Sock]

So what is the answer?

Private charity is not going to finance school systems for entire countries.

Should hard-working citizens in “nonpoor” countries have more of their wealth taken at gun point (i.e., taxation) so that children in “poor countries” can go to school?

ICXC NIKA

It will be a sacrifice to begin with, and people like Bill Gates and the World Bank are very involved, but the goal is self sufficiency that could be established in a few generation with education. But everybody on this planet would eventually benefit with a much larger workforce. With the growth of higher education, technology could grow tremendously.

 

[stinkcat_14]

So what is the answer?

The answer is a mix of things. Some local government reform, some international charitable aid, some foreign investment.

Private charity is not going to finance school systems for entire countries.

True. But that does not mean we are justified in doing nothing. If everyone who purported to be Catholic in the US did just a little, there would be a lot more schools in developing country. Just because we cannot do everything does not mean that we get to do nothing.

Should hard-working citizens in “nonpoor” countries have more of their wealth taken at gun point (i.e., taxation) so that children in “poor countries” can go to school?

ICXC NIKA

In general I am against government aid, because it tends to be political in nature and often benefits political elites more than anyone else.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You can read some very encouraging news on poverty here.

blogs.worldbank.org/voices/bill-gates-talks-about-game-changers-financing-development

 

[Theo520]

The current economic system breeds greed, power and prestige, which are all EVIL!!!

You are completely wrong. It’s ‘human nature’ or the temptation of sin that breeds greed and the pursuit of power and prestige. Changing the economic system or type of governance doesn’t by itself change human nature.

The antidote to the sins of man is spiritual education and advancement, not a world govt.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You are completely wrong. It’s ‘human nature’ or the temptation of sin that breeds greed and the pursuit of power and prestige. Changing the economic system or type of governance doesn’t by itself change human nature.

The antidote to the sins of man is spiritual education and advancement, not a world govt.

Capitalism sure does promote materialism which many are addicted to. It’s this addiction that then promotes power, prestige and greed.

 

[graciew]

Capitalism sure does promote materialism which many are addicted to. It’s this addiction that then promotes power, prestige and greed.

Well,greed in our hearts.
And we have seen deviations in other systrms cause virtually whoever in power has a corrupt heart and everything fails…
And I also have seen poor people cause harm to others for a pair of Nike. And not because they had no shoes.
And I do not consider communism into the equation,it does not really count for me.This is not about class warfare to begin with.
But yes, there are persons Who have no limit for profit,or power in whatever system. At least,that is what I have seen.
We have always repeated how important education is. Everywhere.

 

[Theo520]

When farmers are 30 km away from the nearest main road, it makes it difficult to bring their sheep and goats to market. Building roads and rail lines is not something that can be done with microfinance. They are starved for capital and of course, in Africa we see China stepping in to fill the void. Although some of us skeptics wonder what the cost will be.

There is no economic justification to build a rail line or major road to pick up some sheep and goats. A weekly transport truck on the minor roads that do exist will more than meet their needs, no money wasted.

In many countries, the government does not have the resources to support education. So you see a funnel where many people start out in school, but many fewer finish. Parents income is often too low to pay for private school. In a country where the per capita income is $2000, many households spend a large fraction of their income just subsisting.

Again i call BS on that statement, show me a country that doesn’t have the resources for basic education. More than likely they’ve just used their resources for other ends.

Personally, I find it difficult to tell a worker who makes $5 a day that he ought to eat less in order for his children to go to school. Or should we tell him not to take his children to the clinic when they are sick. What would you suggest the $5 a day guy cut out of his budget?

Basic education isn’t expensive, the key ingredient is a desire to learn. I wish you would stop waxing about the dire situations in countries you’ve never spent any time in.

THE USA IS NOT THE WORLD’S PARENT
We are not responsible to feed, educate and provide healthcare to citizens in every other country in the world. We can and do help train their doctors and nurses, but we shouldn’t staff and fund all their medical infrastructure.

But to use this parenting analogy, we can play a role in helping their existing governments act like mature adults who take responsibility for governing their own countries. We can advise and role model, but we can’t do their job for them.

 

[stinkcat_14]

There is no economic justification to build a rail line or major road to pick up some sheep and goats. A weekly transport truck on the minor roads that do exist will more than meet their needs, no money wasted.

Clearly you have never spent any time in developing countries. You have no idea what type of road system is sufficient.

Again i call BS on that statement, show me a country that doesn’t have the resources for basic education. More than likely they’ve just used their resources for other ends.

I would agree that most countries have sufficient resources for basic education. However, they often lack the resources for education that provides the training necessary for job skills that facilitate economic growth.

Basic education isn’t expensive, the key ingredient is a desire to learn. I wish you would stop waxing about the dire situations in countries you’ve never spent any time in.

I wish you would follow your motto and stop making claims that are not supported by facts. How do you know I have not spent any time in developing countries? If your motto is correct and “facts matter”, then show me your facts. Prove that your claim that I have never spent time in developing countries is true.

THE USA IS NOT THE WORLD’S PARENT
We are not responsible to feed, educate and provide healthcare to citizens in every other country in the world. We can and do help train their doctors and nurses, but we shouldn’t staff and fund all their medical infrastructure.

As a guy named Ronald used to say: “There you go again”. I never said it was the United States responsibility to solve the worlds problems. However, as Christians, we have an obligation to the least among us. Perhaps that is why in my profession, some of my work is actually in developing countries. It is not because it is financially lucrative, I would make more money working at home. But we do not relieve ourselves of our responsibility to the least among us, including the least halfway across the world by saying they have bad governments so their poverty is their problem.

But to use this parenting analogy, we can play a role in helping their existing governments act like mature adults who take responsibility for governing their own countries. We can advise and role model, but we can’t do their job for them.

We can do a lot of things to help. As Christians we have an obligation to. One can debate the appropriate path to help them, but we cannot as Christians just turn our backs and say it is their problem.