Is capitalism a special form of slavery?

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Monte_RCMS said:
I did do a Google search.

I read up on what the articles said about both the coffee workers and the banana workers.

Both sets of articles said basically the same thing … that the workers are grossly underpaid. And that they live in horrible conditions.

The problem is that I know for a fact that the articles about the banana workers are presenting false information.

From several years of work in the banana field, I KNOW that the banana workers are well paid. And that the companies make sure that the workers live well. Why? Because if the bananas are not handled properly AND gently, that defects will not show up until the bananas are ripened and arrive at the store. All an employee needs to do is to rub a green banana and there will be no sign of it until much later at the store when the rub marks show up as black scars. Unhappy employees can easily sabotage the product and NO ONE wil know. But they don’t damage the product. We know that from looking at the bananas at the stores. AND they put their labels on the banana, brand name bananas, so you know which banana to buy in future.

And when the bananas are harvested the workers need to know which bunches to pick because of the growing cycle. AND the plants must be tended carefully.

chiquita.com/The-Chiquita-Difference/Improving-Lives/Wages-Benefits.aspx

chiquitabananas.com/banana-information/find-banana-farm-map.aspx

I also know … I was there … that a public speaker denounced the banana companies because they “monopolized” the railroad … which is false … the banana company BUILT the railroad which ran from the farms which they built to the shipping pier, which they also built. The farms were in areas where no one lived because they needed certain soils and water conditions. And people did not like living in those places. But the speaker spoke specifically against the banana companies.

So, I can tell you that the information on Google about banana companies and their employees is false. I have been there.

I can only judge that the information about the coffee companies and coffee workers is similarly false.

What I would suggest is that you personally visit a banana growing country and a coffee growing country. They are all over the world. Visit and spend some time and see for yourself. Google is fun but sometimes provides false information.

In addition, before you judge others, may I suggest you view this video. I came across it this morning and found it to be very informative.

youtube.com/watch?v=rffJJndOw4c&ebc=ANyPxKp8fkAaIiDV3xb8B9bJx0p-0wWM9SSWpmBuzeIGQARwNGSlWHNawSjFftts-NbmOPoRspNmeHHa5HhEElnfdWoICXjjBQ&nohtml5=False
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Other people have also been through banana growing countries and coffee growing countries.

Is ‘Chiquita’ the same outfit as the ‘United Fruit Company’ of banana republic fame?

“Chiquita traces its origins to the late 1890s and the United Fruit Company, which treated some of the Central American countries it operated in as banana republics.”

Unpeeling the Controversial History of Bananas
That’s a controversial fruit you’re eating there
time.com/3534631/history-bananas/
 
People who live in cold climates have very limited options for food during winter months.

Harvests take place in fall.

So when the food harvest runs out, what happens is what used to be called the hungry time. Late spring and early summer … before the first harvests take place.

However, EVERYTHING grows in the tropics.

The problem becomes how to transport food grown in the tropics to the cold regions.

The other problem is that some foods grown in the tropics cannot survive transportation to the cold regions.

Bananas do not survive the trip north.

In 1876, bananas were first introduced to the United States public through the Philadelphia Centennial Exposition of America. They sold for 10 cents apiece. Which was a LOT of money for that time.

However, some smart people figured out how to grown a species of banana that CAN survive the trip to the cold regions.

Those species cannot be eaten in the tropics because they require special ripening procedures. The species of banana that the local people eat just grow naturally and ripen on the plant.

So some entrepreneurs figured out how to grow these special bananas, which are grown on land that no body wants to live on. These regions have terrible dry periods and equally bad rainy seasons. So they require special irrigation and special drainage.

To tend the plants, they need to pay local people extremely well because NOBODY wants to go there.

They must also grow tens of thousands of acres of the plants. And doing the harvest requires a lot of expertise … because the green bananas don’t ripen on the plant. So they have to know how to select the plants to be picked.

There are huge markets for the bananas … northern America, northern Europe, northern Asia. Hundreds of millions of potential customers.

How do they know which plants to harvest and where the markets are. The answer is that they need to communicate rapidly back and forth, when to harvest, where to harvest and where the referigerated ships must navigate to.

The ships are expensive. There are ripening rooms in the market area. Very expensive.

“Sometimes”, some local government people may suggest that there will be extensive delays unless some … “facilitation payment” … is made.

OR, that when the soil is made fallow, that the land might be seized. So they plant oil palm for a few years.

Nothing illegal.

Of course.

So for a hundred years the companies that grow the bananas have worked out arrangements.

Meanwhile they employ tens of thousands of local people and pay excellent wages and provide education.

Maybe there are hundreds of thousands of employees.

And the banana companies make available to the local people access to the telecommunications previously used only by the banana companies. Or, the banana companies produce plastic bags and then provide smaller sizes to local markets.

So, I don’t know what the poster means by “controversial”.

Maybe the poster should take a trip to Costa Rica and take a learning vacation. It’s not expensive. Take a job teaching English as a second language. The people of Costa Rica are perhaps the friendliest on the planet.
 
GEddie said:
And that’s not a bad thing.

One hundred years ago, the economy still had robber barons, monopolization, and lack of consumer quality or natural resource protection. Dead cats in hotdogs and burning rivers, anybody?

If you are calling all forms of business regulation by government “socialism”, then socialism is, to an extent, necessary.

ICXC NIKA
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Some of the robber barons’ activities resulted in lower costs to customers and increased production and better transportation.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
People who live in cold climates have very limited options for food during winter months.

Harvests take place in fall.

So when the food harvest runs out, what happens is what used to be called the hungry time. Late spring and early summer … before the first harvests take place.

However, EVERYTHING grows in the tropics.

The problem becomes how to transport food grown in the tropics to the cold regions.

The other problem is that some foods grown in the tropics cannot survive transportation to the cold regions.

Bananas do not survive the trip north.

However, some smart people figured out how to grown a species of banana that CAN survive the trip to the cold regions.

Those species cannot be eaten in the tropics because they require special ripening procedures. The species of banana that the local people eat just grow naturally and ripen on the plant.

So some entrepreneurs figured out how to grow these special bananas, which are grown on land that no body wants to live on. These regions have terrible dry periods and equally bad rainy seasons. So they require special irrigation and special drainage.

To tend the plants, they need to pay local people extremely well because NOBODY wants to go there.

They must also grow tens of thousands of acres of the plants. And doing the harvest requires a lot of expertise … because the green bananas don’t ripen on the plant. So they have to know how to select the plants to be picked.

There are huge markets for the bananas … northern America, northern Europe, northern Asia. Hundreds of millions of potential customers.

How do they know which plants to harvest and where the markets are. The answer is that they need to communicate rapidly back and forth, when to harvest, where to harvest and where the referigerated ships must navigate to.

The ships are expensive. There are ripening rooms in the market area. Very expensive.

“Sometimes”, some local government people may suggest that there will be extensive delays unless some … “facilitation payment” … is made.

OR, that when the soil is made fallow, that the land might be seized. So they plant oil palm for a few years.

Nothing illegal.

Of course.

So for a hundred years the companies that grow the bananas have worked out arrangements.

Meanwhile they employ tens of thousands of local people and pay excellent wages and provide education.

Maybe there are hundreds of thousands of employees.

And the banana companies make available to the local people access to the telecommunications previously used only by the banana companies. Or, the banana companies produce plastic bags and then provide smaller sizes to local markets.

So, I don’t know what the poster means by “controversial”.

Maybe the poster should take a trip to Costa Rica and take a learning vacation. It’s not expensive. Take a job teaching English as a second language. The people of Costa Rica are perhaps the friendliest on the planet.
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Do you have a reference of the workers being paid extremely well? Costa Rica might be an exception, but we need the source of your claim. The main point of this thread is that Western Capitalism causes extreme poverty that results in millions of deaths each year due to malnourishment in Third World countries, and your posts seem to seriously downplay this economic fact.
 
Robert_Sock said:
Do you have a reference of the workers being paid extremely well? Costa Rica might be an exception, but we need the source of your claim. The main point of this thread is that Western Capitalism causes extreme poverty that results in millions of deaths each year due to malnourishment in Third World countries, and your posts seem to seriously downplay this economic fact.
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Claiming that the local employees are poverty stricken is not an economic FACT.

My posts are based on personal observations from being there.

Your posts are based on internet articles.

You just admitted on the pot thread to smoking pot .

I would suggest that you visit Costa Rica; it’s not that far and the plane fare is not expensive. You could observe for yourself.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
HELP WANTED!

JOB OPENINGS:

chiquita.com/Careers/Job-Openings.aspx

chiquita.com/Careers/Career-Areas.aspx

chiquita.com/The-Chiquita-Difference/Improving-Lives/Wages-Benefits.aspx

chiquita.com/The-Chiquita-Difference/Improving-Lives/Rights-of-Employees.aspx
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I NEVER intended to imply that everybody in the banana industries live in poverty! Let’s be honest that those in career positions may be doing quite well, but what about the actual laborers?

What does my having had smoked medical marijuana have anything to do with extreme poverty?
 
Robert_Sock said:
Do you have a reference of the workers being paid extremely well? Costa Rica might be an exception, but we need the source of your claim. The main point of this thread is that Western Capitalism causes extreme poverty that results in millions of deaths each year due to malnourishment in Third World countries, and your posts seem to seriously downplay this economic fact.
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“Extreme poverty”.
 
Eric_Hyom said:
Do a Google search, workers are paid a pittance, they are forced into debt and slavery, their children are then forced to work long hours also, this explains how it works.

Coffee workers should be paid a living wage, they should not have to depend on charity.
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Relying on charity … was the response to the earthquake disaster and the US and international aid provided there.

So I provided a link to the CAF discussion from that time.
 
Robert_Sock said:
I NEVER intended to imply that everybody in the banana industries live in poverty! Let’s be honest that those in career positions may be doing quite well, but what about the actual laborers?

What does my having had smoked medical marijuana have anything to do with extreme poverty?
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They can answer another job advert if they don’t like what the banana job pays. The fact is the banana plantations hire a large number of people and they must compete for the best talent. Local people can only win by working in this export industry.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
“Extreme poverty”.
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That was my main concern, and I understand that union workers earn well above the extreme poverty rate. But the wages for nonunion workers, often involving children, remains very low in Costa Rica, counter to your beliefs.

I would be interested in learning how you view extreme poverty (under $1.00 a day) in Third World countries?
 
Theo520 said:
They can answer another job advert if they don’t like what the banana job pays. The fact is the banana plantations hire a large number of people and they must compete for the best talent. Local people can only win by working in this export industry.
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Yes, but those hired in nonunion plantations, often hiring children, are treated as one would treat a slave. Those who cannot find work, live in extreme poverty.
 
Robert_Sock said:
Yes, but those hired in nonunion plantations, often hiring children, are treated as one would treat a slave. Those who cannot find work, live in extreme poverty.
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So you are saying that in these mythical places (not Costa Rica) they children are still better off than without this employment?

Please give me an example of this mythical country and explain why the root cause isn’t their local political leadership? Costa Rica has very good standards.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
…
So, I don’t know what the poster means by “controversial”.
…
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Bringing an End to Banana Republics and their Banana Oil
thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=74752

“Central America, Ecuador, and Colombia supply the majority of the bananas to the United States. The region’s banana industry features an oligopic market dominated by three U.S.-owned multinational corporations, Chiquita (formerly United Fruit Company), Dole (formerly Standard Fruit Company), and Del Monte. From their massive plantations spread throughout Latin America, this “Wild Bunch” controls 65 percent of the world’s banana exports.”

http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/uploads/cmimg_73759.jpg

These links pick on poor Chiquita.
CHIQUITA EXPOSED: PART 1
web.archive.org/web/19990429215351/http://www.summersault.com/~agj/clr/alerts/chiquita_part1.html
CHIQUITA EXPOSED: PART 2
web.archive.org/web/19990429222543/http://www.summersault.com/~agj/clr/alerts/chiquita_part2.html
CHIQUITA EXPOSED: PART 3
web.archive.org/web/19990429225725/http://www.summersault.com/~agj/clr/alerts/chiquita_troub.html

Some excerpts:
"
HIDDEN OWNERSHIP: The Enquirer expose documents a number of steps taken by Chiquita to conceal its ownership of land in Central America, including a multi-layered system involving offshore “trusts.” Part of the motivation for this large-scale deception was to evade (or violate) local laws limiting foreign ownership of land in some of the countries where Chiquita grows bananas.

Another motivation for Chiquita’s shell game of land ownership is union busting. Enquirer reporters obtained confidential internal company memos and tapes of Chiquita voicemail. Again and again, Chiquita management say behind closed doors that they want to use the appearance of dispersed land ownership to break up or prevent unions.

Colombia: In an internal memo to company officials in 1992, Chiquita lawyer David Hills described how the company would undergo a sham break-up of its land holdings. “To avoid affiliation for labor union purposes, no two companies will have the same majority (trust) shareholder,” Hills wrote.

Guatemala: In an October 1997 voicemail, Chiquita lawyer Hills said to another Chiquita lawyer, Joel Raymer, “Joel, one of the issues that’s come up in this Enquirer story is they are asking for what Chiquita’s position is on the stalled labor negotiation in Guatemala at our company-owned subsidiary COBIGUA. Our strategy is to answer that, first of all, that COBIGUA is not our subsidiary, it’s just one of our (independent) associate producers - wink, wink - because we have to take that position publicly. We cannot possibly admit that COBIGUA is our subsidiary.”

Ecuador: A 1992 internal company report by Chiquita financial analyst Paul White explained the rationale for a restructuring which provides for sham independence to its suppliers. “CBI (Chiquita Brands International) prefers that some of its Ecuadoran operations remain anonymous in order to facilitate relationships with unions, governments and suppliers. By giving the perception of Cartonera Andina being independent, for example, CBI is able to reduce costs, and maintain improved relationships with the above groups… By having more companies, and thus more unions, CBI is able to reduce its exposure to strikes and increase its bargaining position.”

Honduras: Amilcar Castejon, a Honduran lawyer who was in charge of a sham independent supplier to Chiquita told the Enquirer that Chiquita set up the farm companies and is hiding its control “to get rid of its Honduran labor union, which would save the company millions of dollars; hide its assets, because the country’s agrarian law limits foreign ownership of agricultural land; and shield itself from liability for such things as worker lawsuits and child labor violations.” Reacting to revelations of Chiquita’s hidden ownership in Honduras, German Edgardo Zepeda, president of the national unions that represent Honduran banana workers, said, “This is a fraud on the Honduran people and cannot be tolerated.”
"

The link to the original story says “This URL has been excluded from the Wayback Machine.” This is a link to the text file of the ‘Cincinnati Enquirer’ exposé.

web.archive.org/web/20000901024007/http://members.xoom.com/elmsford/chiquita.txt
 
Theo520 said:
So you are saying that in these mythical places (not Costa Rica) they children are still better off than without this employment?

Please give me an example of this mythical country and explain why the root cause isn’t their local political leadership? Costa Rica has very good standards.
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What I’m saying is that forcing children to work is unethical. They belong in school… or should I say they belong in a religious school. I’m not a political scientist, just had one course in poly sci and it was on this very topic. The professor was very concerned with the “forced” hard labor and blamed it on capitalism. Capitalists are in love with their ideology, and would never blame the ills in the world on capitalism. They have the tendency to twist things and blame the victims. Pope Francis, I hope, will help enlighten people as to the severe injustices in the world.

Again, capitalism has had it’s place in the world history, but I do not believe it is any longer. Humanitarianism will soon abound in the world, and the pain and suffering associated with harsh poverty will be eliminated.
 
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