Is Capitalism God-Ordained?

[ThomasJMullally]

Such a denial of the teaching of the popes explains the frightful quandary that this poster has created for himself while also denying the reality of history in the development of free enterprise which has helped untold millions out of poverty. But he cannot see the wood for the trees.

Such cafeteria Catholics not only fail to help the development of the prosperity of others, they actively thwart it by their ignorant propagation of falsehoods, and denigrate Christ, the popes and the Church by opposing His teaching.

Oh, it’s you again… the real Cafeteria Catholic. Last time you:

1. quoted a priest who wrote a book claiming faith and reason are joined in harmony, and I pointed out that faith and reason are opposites. No reply to that, how could there be?
2. quoted one verse in the new Testament where Jesus speaks well of a merchant, to prove his endorsement of capitalism. When I pointed out there are ten verses decrying landowners and rich people for every one like yours, you disappeared
3. As you claimed that laziness was antithetical to Catholic teachings, I asked you where in scripture our Lord decried laziness… I still have no answer.

 

[ThomasJMullally]

Such a denial of the teaching of the popes explains the frightful quandary that this poster has created for himself

Please familiarize yourself with Centisimus Annus from John Paul II. Here is a summary as it related to economic matters. It just seems that you are refusing to recognize and take in to your heart, the sections that I have placed into bold type:

1. Catholic social teaching affirms a right to private property that is limited by the common purpose of goods (#30).
2. Work, which is in our day work with and for others, is the human response to God’s gifts (#31).
3. The possession of know-how, technology, and skill is surpassing land as the decisive factor of production (#32).

4. The majority of people today do not have the means or the possibility of acquiring the basic knowledge to enter the world of technology and intercommunication. They are thus exploited or marginalized (#33).

5. The human inadequacies of capitalism are far from disappearing (#33).

6. Many human needs are not satisfied in a free market economy (#34).

7. It is a “strict duty of justice and truth” and a requirement of dignity to help needy people acquire expertise and develop the skill to enter the modern economy (#34).

8. The State needs to control the market to guarantee that the basic needs of society are satisfied (#35).

1. A business firm is a community of persons, endeavoring to meet their basic needs, who form a group at the service of society (#35).
2. Human and moral factors are just as important as profit to the life of a business (#35).

11. The defeat of “Real Socialism” does not leave capitalism as the only model of economic organization (#35).

12. Stronger nations must offer weaker nations the opportunity to take their place in the international order (#35).

13. The foreign debt of poorer countries needs to be handled in a way that respects the rights of peoples to subsistence and progress (#35).

14. Consumerism has created attitudes and lifestyles which damage the physical and spiritual health of human beings (#36).

15. It is necessary to create lifestyles in which the quest for truth, beauty, goodness, and the common good determine choices (#36).

16. The mass media has a special role to play in fostering a sense of general responsibility (#36).

**17. The ecological question emphasizes human responsibility to future generations (#37). **

1. Social structures can create environments conducive to sin which impede full human realization (#38).
2. The family, founded on marriage, is the sanctuary of life (#39).

20. True human alienation happens when a person refuses to transcend the self and live a self-giving life in an authentic human community that is oriented toward God (#41).

21. The Marxist solution has failed, but marginalization, exploitation, and alienation still exist in the Third World (#42).

1. The Church’s social teaching should serve as an orientation, rather than as a model, toward solving problems (#43).

 

[Abu]

ThomasJMullally #180
Oh, it’s you again… the real cafeteria catholic. Last time you:

1. quoted a priest who wrote a book claiming faith and reason are joined in harmony, and I pointed out that faith and reason are opposites. No reply to that, how could there be?

The duplicity, or inability to read, by Mullally is obvious as none other than the great Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was quoted as exploding his myth in post #91:
“ENCYCLICAL LETTER FIDES ET RATIO OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FAITH AND REASON
tinyurl.com/46wut

“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).”

1. quoted one verse in the new Testament where Jesus speak well of a merchant, to prove hi endorsement of capitalism. When I pointed out there are ten verses decrying landowners and rich people for every one like yours, you disappeared.

Jesus never “decries landowners” nor “rich people” as such ONLY when they **or anyone else **(like Mullally) disregards His teaching. Thus what Jesus does is to LAUD those who legitimately create wealth as He ‘looks with love on upon human work’ and that the work of the merchant – the businessman or the entrepreneur – is one of the ‘different forms’ of work that is affirmed. The parable of the talents makes this clear by its reference to money, trading, risk taking and banking.”
Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 48-49].

Once again this spurious attempt to deny Christ’s explicit accolade, and to portray the remarkable work of Fr Anthony Percy as if non-existent!

1. As you claimed that laziness was antithetical to Catholic teachings, I asked you where in scripture our Lord decried laziness… I still have no answer.

A prime example of one who never learns and cannot even understand Christ’s specific teaching as in post # 150 he was informed that:
‘The ignorance here is endemic. Why can’t the poster quote what he can only surmise? Because he doesn’t know and is clueless, which is why his whole tenor is against Christ’s teaching on condemning laziness and encouraging entrepreneurship.

‘So, in Matthew 25:14-30, we find Jesus’ Parable of the Talents.
Here Jesus specifically in verse 26 shows his lord declaring “You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown….” The poster can read the rest where in verse 30 “the unprofitable servant” is cast “into the outer darkness.” ’

As call can see the credibility of Mullally’s case against Christ, His Church, and Fr Percy is in shreds.

 

[ThomasJMullally]

The duplicity, or inability to read, by Mullally is obvious as none other than the great Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was quoted as exploding his myth in post #91:****“ENCYCLICAL LETTER FIDES ET RATIO OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FAITH AND REASON
tinyurl.com/46wut

“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).”
Jesus never “decries landowners” nor “rich people” as such ONLY when they **or anyone else **(like Mullally) disregards His teaching. Thus what Jesus does is to LAUD those who legitimately create wealth as He ‘looks with love on upon human work’ and that the work of the merchant – the businessman or the entrepreneur – is one of the ‘different forms’ of work that is affirmed. The parable of the talents makes this clear by its reference to money, trading, risk taking and banking.”
Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 48-49].

Once again this spurious attempt to deny Christ’s explicit accolade, and to portray the remarkable work of Fr Anthon Percy as if non-existent!
A prime example of one who never learns and cannot even understand Christ’s specific teaching as in post # 150 he was informed that:
‘The ignorance here is endemic. Why can’t the poster quote what he can only surmise? Because he doesn’t know and is clueless, which is why his whole tenor is against Christ’s teaching on condemning laziness and encouraging entrepreneurship.

‘So, in Matthew 25:14-30, we find Jesus’ Parable of the Talents.
Here Jesus specifically in verse 26 shows his lord declaring “You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown….” The poster can read the rest where in verse 30 “the unprofitable servant” is cast “into the outer darkness.” ’

As call can see the credibility of Mullally’s case against Christ, His Church, and Fr Percy is in shreds.

 

[ThomasJMullally]

‘The ignorance here is endemic. Why can’t the poster quote what he can only surmise? Because he doesn’t know and is clueless, which is why his whole tenor is against Christ’s teaching on condemning laziness and encouraging entrepreneurship.

‘So, in Matthew 25:14-30, we find Jesus’ Parable of the Talents.
Here Jesus specifically in verse 26 shows his lord declaring “You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown….” The poster can read the rest where in verse 30 “the unprofitable servant” is cast “into the outer darkness.” ’

As call can see the credibility of Mullally’s case against Christ, His Church, and Fr Percy is in shreds.

** Sir, your misreading and twisted use of scripture is shocking. In this Parable of the Bags of Gold, Our Lord was making an analogy of the final justice that would be brought forth with the Kingdom of Heaven. God was equated to the master of the house, and the bags of gold were the spiritual gifts God gave us to multiply, IT IS NOT MATERIAL THINGS WE ARE SUPPOSED TO MULTIPLY. The servant who errs by burying his bag of gold (his spiritual gift, e.g. he had sinned), is cast down. YOU ARE TWISTING SCRIPTURE TO DEFEND MAN"S RIGHTS TO GOLD! **

It is obvious you have turned your back on the Word, for earthly ends. May God forgive you.

 

[guanophore]

Oh, it’s you again… the real Cafeteria Catholic. Last time you:

1. quoted a priest who wrote a book claiming faith and reason are joined in harmony, and I pointed out that faith and reason are opposites. No reply to that, how could there be?
2. quoted one verse in the new Testament where Jesus speaks well of a merchant, to prove his endorsement of capitalism. When I pointed out there are ten verses decrying landowners and rich people for every one like yours, you disappeared
3. As you claimed that laziness was antithetical to Catholic teachings, I asked you where in scripture our Lord decried laziness… I still have no answer.

While it does seem that Abu is a bit of a fanatical fundamentalist, I am curious to hear your response to his words of the Pope Emeritus:

**

Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI:
**“Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations…Therefore it is not the instrument that must be called to account, but individuals, their moral conscience and their personal and social responsibility.” **

(Caritas et Veritate, Benedict XVI, 2009, #36).

**

 

[Abu]

ThomasJMullally #183
your misreading and twisted use of scripture is shocking.
YOU ARE TWISTING SCRIPTURE TO DEFEND MAN"S RIGHTS TO GOLD!

Thus sayeth the myopic, quite unable to counter the exposure of his three major errors which were decisively refuted. Still throwing stones against Christ, His Church and Fr Percy.

Thus what needs study and emphasis are the blessings of free enterprise which has transformed the world by recognising that all citizens are free to exercise their gifts and talents, under the law, to meet their own needs through participation in free markets.

The Catholic way: free enterprise, sound laws, and the morals that maketh the man. The duty of governments is to make wise laws; that’s why we have laws to seek and punish those who steal, cheat, swindle, and to ensure competition. It is people who commit crimes.

While the Sacred Scriptures condemn greed and wrong use of wealth, commerce or merchants are not condemned. St Augustine stated that price was not only of the seller’s costs but of the buyer’s desire for the item sold. The first examples of free enterprise appeared in the great Catholic monasteries, about the ninth century. (John Gilchrist, The Church and Economic Activity in the Middle Ages, St Martin’s Press1969, I; The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 58).

The fact is that Catholic philosophy and theology, based on reason and faith, enabled the birth of free enterprise. From the great monastic estates in the ninth century, immense increases in agricultural productivity grew from “such significant innovations as the switch to horses, the heavy moldboard plow, and the three-field system” away from subsistence agriculture to specialised crops and products, sold at a profit to initiate a cash economy. “As their incomes continued to mount, this led many monasteries to become banks, lending to the nobility.”[cf. op. cit (Stark) p xii, 55-58].

Randall Collins has noted that innovation and specialization in the monastic estates was “a version of the developed characteristics of capitalism itself… the dynamism of the medieval economy was primarily that of the Church.” [Randall Collins, *The Sociology of Philosophies: A Global Theory of Intellectual Change, 1998, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, p 47].

 

[ThomasJMullally]

While it does seem that Abu is a bit of a fanatical fundamentalist, I am curious to hear your response to his words of the Pope Emeritus:

**

Yes, I neglected to concur with those words. They are the a fine elicitation of our faith.

Of course, if mankind was informed by and leading a perfect and moral life of earth, any economic system could suffice. As it is, unadulterated, triumphant capitalism simply exalts and rewards, greed and chicanery.**

 

[ThomasJMullally]

Thus sayeth the myopic, quite unable to counter the exposure of his three major errors which were decisively refuted. Still throwing stones against Christ, His Church and Fr Percy.

Thus what needs study and emphasis are the blessings of free enterprise which has transformed the world by recognising that all citizens are free to exercise their gifts and talents, under the law, to meet their own needs through participation in free markets.

Please go back to the beginning, and read Christ’s teachings against material obsession. Then acknowledge the world we live in. Do you feel that Christian morals and ethics predominate, that the asceticism of our Lord is what guides us? No, we have rampant consumerism and economic growth as our overarching priorities. You do, in any event.

Quite simply, the world is being destroyed UNDER CAPITALISM. Do you think, that by destroying the world we are hastening the Kingdom of God and fulfilling the last Book? This would be a truly insane and sadistic concept-- not a Godly concept shall I venture to say, even though it would fulfill our prophecy.

 

[exnihilo]

Yes, I was just thinking about the cruel and inhumane labor conditions of American factories of the 19th century. Your “true” capitalism… The abuses did not get resolved in the free market, they ended with legislation, including union rights. Today we have transplanted the abuses overseas. However without the demand for excessive quantities of cheap goods to resell, the horrible factories and labor exploitation could not exist. Those poor workers, are wasting their lives, so that you can stack up junky products in your oversized home.

Every economic system has had what you call ‘cruel and inhumane’ labor conditions. So it is not a feature of capitalism that you have such conditions. Just because there exists legislation prior to the free market ‘correcting’ a problem is not proof that the free market would not resolve the problem. It is true that the government can force change more quickly than the market. But that is not proof the market would not itself correct the problem.

It is interesting that you mention transplanting the abuses overseas. What countries are your referring to? China? If so China is a communist country. Communism is often presented as being diametrically opposed to capitalism.

 

[magnet]

Please go back to the beginning, and read Christ’s teachings against material obsession. Then acknowledge the world we live in. Do you feel that Christian morals and ethics predominate, that the asceticism of our Lord is what guides us? No, we have rampant consumerism and economic growth as our overarching priorities. You do, in any event.

Quite simply, the world is being destroyed UNDER CAPITALISM. Do you think, that by destroying the world we are hastening the Kingdom of God and fulfilling the last Book? This would be a truly insane and sadistic concept-- not a Godly concept shall I venture to say, even though it would fulfill our prophecy.

If the world population with its desire to live the American Dream would decrease its rapaciousness, we could exist quite nicely under capitalism. Capitalism is the most natural of all economic systems because there are no governmental rules other than fairness. However, when the carrying capacity of Earth is exceeded and we forget about sustainability, we have people “overgrazing their grass”. Have you looked at what happens to a pasture when too many cattle are put in it? That is what we are doing to the world’s resources.

But when the urge to breed like rabbits produces more rapaciousness, the world suffers. This was the chief problem with Japan in the 1920’s and 30’s, and is the justification for militarists’ proposal for conquest to try to better the lives of the Japanese. The Chinese have realized that they are “overgrazing their grass”. Hence, the family size limitation policies.

If the people of Central America would not breed like rabbits, we could avoid having the swarms of children spilling over into Mexico and the U.S. If the people of Gaza would not breed like rabbits, their economic pressures would not be so severe. It’s easy to blame the Israelis. They don’t breed like rabbits. They know better.

 

[guanophore]

Please familiarize yourself with Centisimus Annus from John Paul II. Here is a summary as it related to economic matters. It just seems that you are refusing to recognize and take in to your heart, the sections that I have placed into bold type:

This seems to be a pattern with this particular member.

The duplicity, or inability to read,

Insulting others who do not share your perspective is not conducive to evangelism or apologetics.

Jesus never “decries landowners” nor “rich people” as such ONLY when they **or anyone else **(like Mullally) disregards His teaching. Thus what Jesus does is to LAUD those who legitimately create wealth...

Yes, but I think the point being made is that many capitalists do not “legitimately” create the wealth. Here in the United States we are barely recovering from a housing scandal that was based on greed, lies, and taking advantage of those with limited income. There is also a history thousands losing their entire live savings by being swindled into bad investments. I agree with your premise about Jesus’ attitude of doing business and making profit, but capitalism has often been used wickedly, and many have suffered.

Once again this spurious attempt to deny Christ’s explicit accolade, and to portray the remarkable work of Fr Anthony Percy as if non-existent!
A prime example of one who never learns and cannot even understand Christ’s specific teaching as in post # 150 he was informed that:
‘The ignorance here is endemic. Why can’t the poster quote what he can only surmise? Because he doesn’t know and is clueless,

Abu, have you considered that you might just be too prejudiced and bigoted to participate in CAF? Perhaps that fact that other people see things differently than you raises your blood pressure? Seriously, I worry about your health.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

At the heart of fraud, is greed. At the heart of cheating, is greed.

You are generalizing again Tom.

By your reasoning, greed would be the heart of theft. But the Church justifies theft in some cases and it has nothing to do with greed.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a4.htm

The goal of all capitalists is to accumulate a surplus.

Another unfounded generalization.

I know many Capitalists with goals of helping others. And who better equipped to help others than wealthy Capitalists. Most anti-capitalists rely on government handouts and can barely help themselves let alone help others.

But, just for argument’s sake, let’s say that the goal of every Capitalist was, in fact, to accumulate a surplus. It would then be…WHAT they do with that surplus that matters.

The Great Heroes of Capitalism such as James J. Hill (railroads), John D. Rockefeller (oil), and Cornelius Vanderbilt (steamships), improved the lives of millions of consumers. Employed thousands of people. Created entire cities. Pioneered efficient management techniques, and donated hundreds of millions of dollars to charities.

How can you remotely infer greed to Capitalism?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Abu, have you considered that you might just be too prejudiced and bigoted to participate in CAF? Perhaps that fact that other people see things differently than you raises your blood pressure? Seriously, I worry about your health.

Insulting others who do not share your perspective is not conducive to evangelism or apologetics.

Hmmmmmm

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Yes, but I think the point being made is that many capitalists do not “legitimately” create the wealth.

If Capitalists do not “legitimately” create the wealth…who does?

Here in the United States we are barely recovering from a housing scandal that was based on greed, lies, and taking advantage of those with limited income. There is also a history thousands losing their entire live savings by being swindled into bad investments. I agree with your premise about Jesus’ attitude of doing business and making profit, but capitalism has often been used wickedly, and many have suffered.

Capitalism is used wickedly ONLY through government intervention.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Please familiarize yourself with Centisimus Annus from John Paul II. Here is a summary as it related to economic matters. It just seems that you are refusing to recognize and take in to your heart, the sections that I have placed into bold type:

5. The human inadequacies of capitalism are far from disappearing (#33).

6. Many human needs are not satisfied in a free market economy (#34).

7. It is a “strict duty of justice and truth” and a requirement of dignity to help needy people acquire expertise and develop the skill to enter the modern economy .:

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. TEACH a man how to fish and he can feed himself for life.

The trouble is that most “needy” people would rather take the free fish than do anything for themselves.

8. The State needs to control the market to guarantee that the basic needs of society are satisfied (#35).

The state DOES control the market. That is why #33 and #34 are true statements.

 

[freeRadical]

8. The State needs to control the market to guarantee that the basic needs of society are satisfied (#35).

Doesn’t this statement contradict the Church’s teaching on Socialism?

Have you read Pope Leo’s encyclical Rerum Novarum?

 

[freeRadical]

14. Consumerism has created attitudes and lifestyles which damage the physical and spiritual health of human beings (#36).

Consumerism does not equal free markets.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Doesn’t this statement contradict the Church’s teaching on Socialism?

Have you read Pope Leo’s encyclical Rerum Novarum?

I think the actual quote is a bit more nuanced. The encyclical doesn’t say the state, but by the “forces of society” which is certainly vague in determining what that is. But I would argue that it would include competition, which certainly controls the market.

what is being proposed as an alternative is not the socialist system, which in fact turns out to be State capitalism, but rather a society of free work, of enterprise and of participation. Such a society is not directed against the market, but demands that the market be appropriately controlled by the forces of society and by the State, so as to guarantee that the basic needs of the whole of society are satisfied.

 

[freeRadical]

I think the actual quote is a bit more nuanced. The encyclical doesn’t say the state, but by the “forces of society” which is certainly vague in determining what that is. But I would argue that it would include competition, which certainly controls the market.

Ah, thank you for the more thorough explanation. Though, I think one can argue on what “appropriately controlled” means.