Is Christ Spiritually Present in Protestant Communion? (POLL)

[flameburns623]

mean_owen:

I could see someone calling that a waffle, but how is it a lie?

I want to say that little ditty was coined by Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth (sister of Queen Mary, whom Elisabeth kindly imprisoned upon wresting Mary’s crown from her head), who was attempting to cut a swathe right down the middle between those who accepted the Real Presence in Anglican Communion and those who believed that Communion is symbolical.

Incidentally: I am told, but have never actually been given a citation, that Zwingli did NOT mean to claim that Christ is not “really” and “specially” present in Protestant communion. His point was that Christ IS present during Communion and received in a special maner by the reception of the elements of communion. HOWEVER–Zwingli rejected the idea that Christ is really and ‘substantially’ present ‘within the elements’ of communion themselves.

Most Protestants and Catholics today seek to highlight the DIFFERENCES between what Catholics believe happens during communion and what Protestants believe happens–hence the stress on the idea that Protestants believe communion is symbolic, which actually distorts what Zwingli taught. Or so I am told.

One other thing. Most waffles lie. Ever try to make one stand up?

Unfortunately, the founders of this forum see fit only to allow one 15 minutes to edit one’s typos and one can easily overlook one even after ‘previewing’ whatone has just written. I am an Anglican so was not attempting to say that “Anglicans ***lie” ***, but rather that “Anglicans ***like to ***say”. Wish they would allow corrections as needed. But that’s a petty quibble with how the forum is set up.

 

[YADA]

This is a very interesting topic and seems to be getting some very emotional responses along with some very reasoned ones. Although I posted these thoughts earlier, I give it another go…

We as, Catholics, are assured that the “True Presence” of Christ exists in the Eucharist. Jesus is there, body and soul, flesh and blood, in either species (Bread or Wine). We receive Him and are nourished. Our assurance comes to us through Jesus’ promise and institution at the Last Supper, the teachings of the Apostle’s, hrough the Magisterium of the Church, the Early Church Father’s and two thousand years of tradition. This is a truth.

However, we do not and cannot have the same assurance regarding Protestant Communion. We cannot place limits on God. He can be present anywhere He pleases. The Spirit can and does work where He wills it. Like my Parish Priest is fond of reminding us: "Yes, Jesus is present in the Tabernacle. He is present there in a unique way. However, we do not hold Jesus captive there. Jesus is present in every Tabernacle and he is present throughout the world.

My God is an awsome God, a God of power, a God of Love and Might. He may or may not be present in a Protestant Communion but that is for Him to decide not me. It is his prudential judgement not ours. I know many Spirit filled faithful Christians, God works in them and nourishes their souls to His glory. Praise Jesus! And their witness makes my faith stronger and my witness to the truth richer! Something to ponder…

 

[Deacon2006]

katherine2:

I think it might be better said that the ASSURANCE of the Presence is not there. God can do what He wills. Don’t tell God there are places where He cannot go.

Not really the church and not me has clearly taught that protestant communion is defective and devoid of the real presence. For the real presence can only come from God ordained ministers.

In the words of the pope to the Protestant communions** “Much more unites us than divides us.”**

Unfortunately what divides us is the what Jesus demands for us to partake in to have eternal life.

So the amount of error is less than the amount of truth.

No poorly constructed logic leading to a false conclusion. The church teaches that protestant communion may at best be a preparation for the real eucharist and that has a good at one level. However it does not rise to the point you are making. It is like saying the disciplies who walked away after the bread of life discourses in John 6 have more truth then the ones who never came at all. In reality it is an absurd point because all their murmuring truths is not The Truth. Yet there still is hope that they will come into full communion with God’s one church.

I suggest Ecclesia de Eucharista chp III to help clear this up for you. In it you will see that when we particpate in the protestant communion we fail in bearing witness to The Truth not because the church says so but because The Truth is not present. God is everywhere but he limits himself in communion, by his own choosing, to the Eucharist consecarted by validly ordained priests.

God Bless

 

[katherine2]

Deacon2006:

Not really the church and not me has clearly taught that protestant communion is defective and devoid of the real presence. For the real presence can only come from God ordained ministers.

Not really, this is yoru private opinion.

Unfortunately what divides us is the what Jesus demands for us to partake in to have eternal life.

Not really. The Church has never taught all Protestants are denied salvation.

The church teaches that …

Well, not the Cahtolic Church

 

[Deacon2006]

katherine2:

Not really, this is yoru private opinion.

Vatican II, Canon law, the CCC and every the recent encyclical on the eucharist etc etc makes the same point, only validly ordained minister can confect the eucharist and it’s associated tenent that no protestant denomination has a validly ordained priesthood. To claim my point is one of mere opinion is actually quite humorous.

Not really. The Church has never taught all Protestants are denied salvation.

Didn’t say that; what I said is what the Church, through God, through Scripture in the Gospel of John, says that if you don’t partake in the Eucharist then you have no life in you. Even considering the possibility of defendable ignorance the pope routinely preaches the truth of what is contained in John 6.

St. Augustine says that real love requires us to speak the truth. Only from hearing the truth can real faith develop. It is never an act of charity to hide from protestants what we teach about the eucharist or to let them believe that their communion services are anything more then a preparation for the real eucharist, but for now, they eat only bread.

The manner in which we share the truth at the source of the church requires both tact and uncompromising resolve, that is exactly what you see from the Pope. Never confuse the words of fellowship, ecumenicalism and evangilisation with providing papal sanction to false beliefs.

God Bless

 

[YADA]

Deacon2006, I believe you take the Church’s position farther than the Church would want to go. The Church in her wisdom can teach what she knows to be truth. For example, a validly ordained priest can validly consecrate the Eucharist. Salvation is found inside the Church. What the Church cannot do is place limits on God. The Church can say that it is unknown whether Jesus is present in Protestant Communion. The Church can hold the position of it being ‘unknown’ because protestant churches do not have a valid priesthood. The Church can say that outside the Church salvation is less certain. God saves and God is everywhere.

That being the case, why would you leave what is ‘known’ for that which is ‘unknown’? That should be our focus. Our Church recognizes that God {The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, Jesus, the Trinity (however you choose to call upon God)} is not limited in how HE works in the world. God determines who is saved not the Church. The Church will say with confidence who is a Saint and enjoys the beautific vision of heaven, but never claims the reverse of who is damned and left to eternal hell. Rightly so! If Jesus desires to be present in a protestant communion He is. I am sure you would not presume to place limits on our Lord.

Our evangelation needs to be less focused on what is ‘wrong’ with Protestantism (our perceptions). We need to be focused on what the truth is. The truth is that we have a Eucharistic Meal, instituted by Christ for his followers. We can say with great assurance that what has been handed down to us from the Apostles is what we celebrate today at Mass. Two thousand years of tradition, the testimony of the Early Church Fathers adn Scripture all give testimony to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Do not try to argue from the position that has us limiting the One Who Was, Who Is and Who is to Come. Life is full of mysteries we cannot comprehend. Just speak the Truth.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

YADA:

Deacon2006, I believe you take the Church’s position farther than the Church would want to go. The Church in her wisdom can teach what she knows to be truth. For example, a validly ordained priest can validly consecrate the Eucharist. Salvation is found inside the Church. What the Church cannot do is place limits on God. The Church can say that it is unknown whether Jesus is present in Protestant Communion. The Church can hold the position of it being ‘unknown’ because protestant churches do not have a valid priesthood. The Church can say that outside the Church salvation is less certain. God saves and God is everywhere.

That being the case, why would you leave what is ‘known’ for that which is ‘unknown’? That should be our focus. Our Church recognizes that God {The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, Jesus, the Trinity (however you choose to call upon God)} is not limited in how HE works in the world. God determines who is saved not the Church. The Church will say with confidence who is a Saint and enjoys the beautific vision of heaven, but never claims the reverse of who is damned and left to eternal hell. Rightly so! If Jesus desires to be present in a protestant communion He is. I am sure you would not presume to place limits on our Lord.

Our evangelation needs to be less focused on what is ‘wrong’ with Protestantism (our perceptions). We need to be focused on what the truth is. The truth is that we have a Eucharistic Meal, instituted by Christ for his followers. We can say with great assurance that what has been handed down to us from the Apostles is what we celebrate today at Mass. Two thousand years of tradition, the testimony of the Early Church Fathers adn Scripture all give testimony to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Do not try to argue from the position that has us limiting the One Who Was, Who Is and Who is to Come. Life is full of mysteries we cannot comprehend. Just speak the Truth.

Well put Yada. To many people like playing God. God Bless

 

[YADA]

SpokenWord,

Thank you for the kind words. I wonder if Deacon2006 is discerning to actually become a Deacon? I graduated from a Master’s in Pastoral Ministry program that has lots of Deacon candidates. It is a hard struggle to keep a proper perspective about church teachings. For example; if only a Priest can consecrate a valid Eucharist then…

I have found it is just not that easy sometimes!

Our God is so awesome I would never try to put the limits of our world and our understanding on Him. It is important to share the truth of the Eucharist. It truly is a great gift. One of many gifts. We should never denigrate the work of the Holy Spirit in our Christian brethren. I have seen God work very powerfully amoung Protestants. Many times that work is to bring them into the fullness of faith as found in the Catholic Church! I am one of those, thank God!

I posted this earlier: My priest is fond of saying that “Jesus is present in the Tabernacle but we do not hold Him captive there!”

Again, Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[Deacon2006]

YADA:

Deacon2006, I believe you take the Church’s position farther than the Church would want to go.

You are entitled to your opinion and I will respect it for what it is worth and the spirit in which you offer it. But as you will see here I completely disagree because I am bound to the teaching of the church.

The Church in her wisdom can teach what she knows to be truth. For example, a validly ordained priest can validly consecrate the Eucharist. Salvation is found inside the Church…What the Church cannot do is place limits on God…The Church can say that outside the Church salvation is less certain.

An attempt to rewrite what the church actually teaches to support your arguement? The Church Fathers and all church counsels actually teach that outside the church there is no salvation. Current teaching, VII, allows for ignorance of the church couched in a sincere heart. You are bound to teach the truth and dispell the ignorrance, not indulge error. It is your sacred duty to evangilise all men to the truth taught by the Church and not some wishy washy half baked speculation on protestant communion you thought up.

“It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that the Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covennant in order to establish one body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in anyway to the people of God” CCC 816

If Jesus desires to be present in a protestant communion He is. I am sure you would not presume to place limits on our Lord.

The Church is the will of God for the salvation of all men. The eucharist is the reason for the Church and the Church is confector of the eucharist. To play polly annish games about protestant communion is to deny that we must maintain the catholic position on the eucharist when engaged in ecumenicalism.

“…the teaching concerning the Lord’s Supper, the other sacraments, worship, the ministry of the Church, must be the subject of the (ecumenical) dialogue.”

Our evangelation needs to be less focused on what is ‘wrong’ with Protestantism (our perceptions). . We can say with great assurance that what has been handed down to us from the Apostles is what we celebrate today at Mass. Who is to Come. Life is full of mysteries we cannot comprehend. Just speak the Truth.

The truth is; If a Catholic partakes of communion at a protestant service they toy with grave sin at the peril of their soul.

I encourage you to read what the church teaches about the eucharist, see Ecclesia De Eucharista, Council of Trent and Vatican II documents especially UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO.

“**Only validly ordained priests ** can preside at the eucharist and concecrate the bread and the wine so that they become the Body and blood of the lord.”

What the church proposes as universally true for the salvation of man is true, and universally applies to all men, for the Church can only teach the will of God. It is not the Church that limits God it is God that enlightens the Church so it can teach the truth.

"Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, **are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished ** (eucharistic image) to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life-that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation." UR

When it comes to salvation you can do far more harm with wishy washy language that lets people draw all kinds of false conclusions. Truth is what the church teaches.

God Bless

 

[Deacon2006]

YADA:

SpokenWord,

I would never try to put the limits of our world and our understanding on Him.

Your childish insult is based on typical false eccumenicism notions and one that does not apply to anything I have said or posted. I have not limited God but neither will I engage in baseless speculation about God as you seem so willing to do.

God is in the tabernalce because of His love of humanity, most protestants reject the totality of that statement, our duty is to teach them the truth and not to indulge in academic speculation or false beliefs about the will of the Holy Spirit.

The Church clearly teaches it is the will of God to bring all protestants, and all humanity into the Church. Whatever grace is present in the protestant churches is absolutley and continually pulling them to His Catholic Church so they can partake in His Holy Communion.

God Bless

 

[YADA]

Deacon2006,

I appreciate your insights. Your understanding of church teaching is well grounded but you take it too far. As for my comments, you place inferences and actions to my words that are not there, much as you do with the Church. I would never partake of a Protestant Communion. Nor would I expect any Catholic would that had a true understanding of the Eucharist. I know, profess and believe that in the Eucharist we have the fullness of Christ. We know that with great assurance because of the constant teaching of the Church.

It is not some vain attempt at Ecumenism (spelling?) upon which I say that you cannot declare that Christ is not present in a Protestant Communion. You, Sir, are correct top assert all that the Church teaches but neither you nor the Church can dictate to God where and how he may present himself. God can and does work outside the confines of the Church.

While we are assurred that a priest can validly consecrate I am equally sure that the Holy Spirit works in this world both inside and outside the Catholic Church. Rest assured that Jesus came into the world to save ALL, not just Catholics. Many Catholics may be surprised on the day of judgement. The Church cannot teach any other way to salvation except through the Church. That is the knowledge given the Church. However, God save in anyway and anyone He chooses!
With charity and humility I share the Christian faith in its full Catholicity. But I share truth, not fiction. I share a God of Love, Power and Justice who instituted the Church. I do not share a Church that instituted a God.

Perhaps in your Church, you keep Jesus captive in the Tabernacle, however, that does not seem very ‘Universal’ to me. My theology professor’s counsel to stick with the truth and stay away from the mystery. I wish you good luck in your discernment. Growing in faith is a wonderful state to be in.

 

[Deacon2006]

Interesting how you suggest that what the church teaches as universally true, is in your mind only a compelling theological possibilty. I prefer to say this “I believe in the One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.”

Can God provide sanctifying grace through means other than the sacarments? yes of course He is God.

Does God provide life giving grace through religious practices such as protestant communion? No because has revealed that He is the faithful Bridegroom to His Bride. I know in today’s open society we have diminished understanding of what it means to be a faithful spouse but that doesn’t mean God does.

Do protestants believe that God provides saving grace through their communion services? No.

The vast majority of protestant churches consider their communion to be only bread and a symbol. A few see it as some combination of bread and grace but none actually believe that communion is the spiritual presence of God as God in fact taught His Church.

I respect and affirm what their theologians have concluded on this matter. You are not respecting protestants when you don’t acknowledge what they believe.

Does the Church teach that Protestant communion has life giving grace associted with it? No the church teaches that protestant communion is defective but may have the positive benefit of preparing them for true communion much like the mana from heaven prepared humanity for the Bread of Life.

God sought us out from the beginning of time to be in communion with him through the power of the Holy Spirit and the actions of his Holy Priests through his Holy Church. Your novel beliefs about the presence of God in the liturgies of the denominations is not founded in any fact taught by the church.

God Bless

PS The whole locking away God in the taberancle thing is irreverent and not applicable to my posts.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Deacon2006:

Interesting how you suggest that what the church teaches as universally true, is in your mind only a compelling theological possibilty. I prefer to say this “I believe in the One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.”

Can God provide sanctifying grace through means other than the sacarments? yes of course He is God.

Does God provide life giving grace through religious practices such as protestant communion? No because has revealed that He is the faithful Bridegroom to His Bride. I know in today’s open society we have diminished understanding of what it means to be a faithful spouse but that doesn’t mean God does.

Do protestants believe that God provides saving grace through their communion services? No.

The vast majority of protestant churches consider their communion to be only bread and a symbol. A few see it as some combination of bread and grace but none actually believe that communion is the spiritual presence of God as God in fact taught His Church.

I respect and affirm what their theologians have concluded on this matter. You are not respecting protestants when you don’t acknowledge what they believe.

Does the Church teach that Protestant communion has life giving grace associted with it? No the church teaches that protestant communion is defective but may have the positive benefit of preparing them for true communion much like the mana from heaven prepared humanity for the Bread of Life.

God sought us out from the beginning of time to be in communion with him through the power of the Holy Spirit and the actions of his Holy Priests through his Holy Church. Your novel beliefs about the presence of God in the liturgies of the denominations is not founded in any fact taught by the church.

God Bless

PS The whole locking away God in the taberancle thing is irreverent and not applicable to my posts.

Hi Deacon, It so amazing to me the amount of people who like to PLAY GOD. God says my thoughts are not your thoughts but you know better than God because you believe you have His mind. He has elevated you into a very high position according to you with this Gift. Interesting? You make assumptions that only God knows. God Bless.

 

[Deacon2006]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Deacon, It so amazing to me the amount of people who like to PLAY GOD. God says my thoughts are not your thoughts but you know better than God because you believe you have His mind. He has elevated you into a very high position according to you with this Gift. Interesting? You make assumptions that only God knows. God Bless.

I realize that my posts are rubbing you the wrong way but when you deny what God has revealed; you deny what God has revealed. When you insult people; you insult people. Don’t give in to these temptations of bitterness, don’t use a discussion about the Lord as an opportunity to curse out someone else.

My point is that the Church has infallible taught that only validly ordained ministers can confect the Eucharist. The Church, the Priesthood, and the Eucharist, are inseparably linked by the word of God because they are the expression of the will of God. Ignorance of this point in all charity only makes you ignorant and not a better Christian. Insulting people because you don’t like the truth is childish.

The manner in which we share the truth requires clarity and uncompromising witness, which is exactly what you see from your Pope. Never confuse the tactful words of fellowship, ecumenicalism and evangelization with providing papal sanction to false beliefs and or ecclesial relativism.

The Catholic Church as the Mystical Body of Christ penetrates all of us. There is no truth in a protestant community that is not Catholic. Protestant teachings that deny or distort the Church’s teaching are defective or untrue. So we rejoice when we see Protestants read the Gospel but we imperil our soul if we take their communion and or fail to teach them the truth about the Eucharist.

The goal of all ecumenical dialogue is to have all humanity unite in the Catholic Church because that is what God has revealed to the Church.

God Bless

 

[KDoerr]

YADA:

Hello to all,

After months of viewing, reading and pondering many forums, this is my first post!

YADA http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_256835”, true);
Regular Member
Join Date: October 21, 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 45

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Deacon2006:

I realize that my posts are rubbing you the wrong way but when you deny what God has revealed; you deny what God has revealed. When you insult people; you insult people. Don’t give in to these temptations of bitterness, don’t use a discussion about the Lord as an opportunity to curse out someone else.

My point is that the Church has infallible taught that only validly ordained ministers can confect the Eucharist. The Church, the Priesthood, and the Eucharist, are inseparably linked by the word of God because they are the expression of the will of God. Ignorance of this point in all charity only makes you ignorant and not a better Christian. Insulting people because you don’t like the truth is childish.

The manner in which we share the truth requires clarity and uncompromising witness, which is exactly what you see from your Pope. Never confuse the tactful words of fellowship, ecumenicalism and evangelization with providing papal sanction to false beliefs and or ecclesial relativism.

The Catholic Church as the Mystical Body of Christ penetrates all of us. There is no truth in a protestant community that is not Catholic. Protestant teachings that deny or distort the Church’s teaching are defective or untrue. So we rejoice when we see Protestants read the Gospel but we imperil our soul if we take their communion and or fail to teach them the truth about the Eucharist.

The goal of all ecumenical dialogue is to have all humanity unite in the Catholic Church because that is what God has revealed to the Church.

God Bless

Deacon, Its not me thats insulting people. Its you thats insulting God when you think you can have His mind,and make false assumptions.I say this in a spirit of correction. I do not have any bitterness for that is not fruit of the spirit. It hurts me as well as hurt the body when you have this attitude.God Bless.

 

[Deacon2006]

SPOKENWORD:

Deacon, Its not me thats insulting people. Its you thats insulting God when you think you can have His mind,and make false assumptions.I say this in a spirit of correction. I do not have any bitterness for that is not fruit of the spirit. It hurts me as well as hurt the body when you have this attitude.God Bless.

I am sorry that you do not believe what the Church teaches as true. I will pray for you.

Accusing me of usurping the prerogatives of God is a serious matter. Since it is a false accusation it is not God that leads you publish such disparaging comments.

In all charity your posts are factually inaccurate and logically incoherent, unless you believe that you have the authority to speak for God? Wait isn’t that what you just said I can’t do?

I joyfully admit that I believe what God teaches through His Holy Church. This is what we Catholics call Divine Faith; I believe it is true based on the authority of God, without any hesitation, because I know that what God teaches for mans salvation subsists in its entirety in the One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.

It seems to me that the heart of your concerns is that you don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the True Church of God, do you? I think those who are following this string might really want to know if you are a Catholic differing with me on disciplinary emphasis or if you are a self styled bible expert who out of hand rejects the role of the Catholic Church in your personal salvation.

God Bless

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Deacon2006:

I am sorry that you do not believe what the Church teaches as true. I will pray for you.

Accusing me of usurping the prerogatives of God is a serious matter. Since it is a false accusation it is not God that leads you publish such disparaging comments.

In all charity your posts are factually inaccurate and logically incoherent, unless you believe that you have the authority to speak for God? Wait isn’t that what you just said I can’t do?

I joyfully admit that I believe what God teaches through His Holy Church. This is what we Catholics call Divine Faith; I believe it is true based on the authority of God, without any hesitation, because I know that what God teaches for mans salvation subsists in its entirety in the One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.

It seems to me that the heart of your concerns is that you don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the True Church of God, do you? I think those who are following this string might really want to know if you are a Catholic differing with me on disciplinary emphasis or if you are a self styled bible expert who out of hand rejects the role of the Catholic Church in your personal salvation.

God Bless

What a shame. So much knowledge with a lack of Godly wisdom and understanding.To much theoligy and not enough intimacy.God Bless.

 

[Deacon2006]

SPOKENWORD:

What a shame. So much knowledge with a lack of Godly wisdom and understanding.To much theoligy and not enough intimacy.God Bless.

I’ll take that under advisement.

God Bless

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Deacon2006:

I’ll take that under advisement.

God Bless

Please do brother deacon and you will graduate with highest honors. God bless you on your walk.