Is civil divorce wrong?

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

What good is a busy pastor, while 50% of his parish is divorcing, and he isnt offering his moral advice?

That is a very poor assumption. Why would you assume moral advice isn’t being offered? Pastors offer moral advice on this sort of thing all the time. I still am not getting why you think it needs to be formalized with a letter.

This very thread demonstrates why some could benefit from seeing a pastoral letter stating a civil divorce would be immoral in a particular situation.

Some deny it even in this thread!

 

[LittleFlower]

The Church does not make sin a requirement in receiving an annulment. If an annulment is warranted, ie a sacramental marriage never existed, then obtaining the divorce would not have been a sin.

This does not hold up to scrutiny. The Church will not even engage in the annulment process until the divorce decree absolute is at hand, due to the fact that the annulment process and the findings could be used in civil courts—something the Church tries to mitigate.

Again, the Church CANNOT ask you to SIN to fulfil anything She requires. You do not know whether your annulment would be successful but you can’t get an annulment prior to being divorced.

Immoral does not equal sin.

If Person A divorces Person B, and Person A does not remarry or go sin against purity, chastity, OR become an adulterer—then they have not sinned within or against their sacramental marriage.

The whole issue of divorce is if Person A or B sin within their existing sacramental marriage. The divorce itself isn’t inherently sinful.

Please read http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2012/01/03/divorced-catholics-and-the-eucharist/

 

[tafan2]

Immoral does not equal sin.

knowingly engaging in an immoral act equates to sin. How can it not?

If Person A divorces Person B, and Person A does not remarry or go sin against purity, chastity, OR become an adulterer—then they have not sinned within or against their sacramental marriage.

This does not hold up to scrutiny. You make this as a general statement. If I, for only selfish reasons, file for a divorce against my wife, I am abandoning her. Regardless of my future actions, I have sinned. Do you honestly believe that it is never a sin to divorce your spouse?

 

[rcwitness]

That article does NOT support your personal belief system.

The article merely says civil divorce is not necessarily a sin.

 

[LittleFlower]

It is likely the case that pastors are often involved in advising whether a divorce is warranted or not.

I would caution about this. Historically the Church, through it’s priests, commonly advised women and men who were victims of domestic abuse to remain married. This position has now changed.

But many women and men were emotionally, mentally, financially and physically abused for hundreds of years prior to this change.

Thankfully, at least in Australia, attitudes are changing.

'Submit to your husbands': Women told to endure domestic violence in the name of God

Church leaders in Australia say they abhor abuse of any kind. But advocates say the church is not just failing to sufficiently address domestic violence, it is both enabling and concealing it.

www.abc.net.au

 

[tafan2]

I would caution about this. Historically the Church, through it’s priests, commonly advised women and men who were victims of domestic abuse to remain married. This position has now changed.

You would caution about seeking one’s pastor advice prior to seeking a divorce?

 

[LittleFlower]

This does not hold up to scrutiny. You make this as a general statement. If I, for only selfish reasons, file for a divorce against my wife, I am abandoning her. Regardless of my future actions, I have sinned. Do you honestly believe that it is never a sin to divorce your spouse?

What have you sinned against exactly? You are still sacramentally married.

Please provide examples and resources that explicitly state that you have sinned through civilly divorcing your spouse. Again, the Church cannot require you to sin to seek an annulment.

If it was a sin, why do none of the resources explicitly state this?

Not even the PDFs I posted early do this. If you wilfully abandon your marriage, then it could be that it was never valid in the first place.

I have not seen one resource posted that supports the counterarguments. I am backing up everything I am writing, providing resources from dioceses, and religious organisations.

 

[rcwitness]

LittleFlower:

I would caution about this. Historically the Church, through it’s priests, commonly advised women and men who were victims of domestic abuse to remain married. This position has now changed.

You would caution about seeking one’s pastor advice prior to seeking a divorce?

I sure am glad someone is using common sense here!

I find it so strange how these Catholics always urge others to speak with their pastor or a priest about spiritual direction, but highly criticize requesting their advice be put into paper!

Why not??? Why keep such important things secret? Isnt that part of why so many Catholics think divorce is never a sin?

 

[LittleFlower]

You would caution about seeking one’s pastor advice prior to seeking a divorce?

No, please do not twist my words around.

I would caution to blindly following what a priests says to you, if you cannot disclose all the facts—many abuse victims do not state this to anyone. Many might not even disclose this to their priest.

I mean, if a woman is being sexually abused by her husband, she may never tell anyone. If a husband is being mentally abused by his wife, he may also never say anything. In the past many have sought help from their priests, who were woefully unable to provide proper counselling.

Like I said above, this is thankfully changing.

 

[rcwitness]

The tribunal does not require anyone in particular to file divorce. It merely requires a State divorce to be in place before they will look at your case.

BIG DIFFERENCE! You are making a connection that does not exist.

Btw, that practice. By the tribunal is strange.

 

[LittleFlower]

The tribunal does not require anyone in particular to file divorce. It merely requires a State divorce to be in place before they will look at your case.

Generally, Tribunals will not proceed with an application until a civil divorce Decree Absolute has been granted. This prevents information given in confidence to the Tribunal from being used in divorce proceedings.

https://www.catholicfamily.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/NBCW-A-Guide-to-the-Annulment-Process-4th-Edition.pdf

They need the divorce decree. They will not proceed with an annulment otherwise. Thus you need to civilly file and be granted a divorce to APPLY for an annulment and/or receive it.

 

[rcwitness]

You still need affirmation from the Church to file.

 

[LittleFlower]

You still need affirmation from the Church to file.

Where is this stated?

Back this up!

From the above PDF:

Our advice is that you do not need to talk to anyone before approaching the Tribunal. As the Tribunal consists of experts, they are best placed to advise you.

 

[tafan2]

No, please do not twist my words around.

I was simply seeking clarification, sorry for the offense.

 

[rcwitness]

You posted an article that states it.

And this was posted in the thread also…

"Divorce is immoral and a grave offense against the natural law (4). The separation of spouses can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law (5).

In the United States, the permission of the Bishop or his mandated delegate, is required before a spouse can approach the civil forum to obtain separation from bed and board (6). In other words, before a spouse files in the civil court for divorce or civil separation, he or she must have permission from the Bishop."

 

[LittleFlower]

In the United States, the permission of the Bishop or his mandated delegate, is required before a spouse can approach the civil forum to obtain separation from bed and board (6). In other words, before a spouse files in the civil court for divorce or civil separation, he or she must have permission from the Bishop."

Could you provide the source for this? This AFAIK has not been posted yet.

 

[rcwitness]

http://marysadvocates.org/resources/defending-marriage/petition-bishop/canon-law-explained/

 

[tafan2]

What have you sinned against exactly? You are still sacramentally married.

Really, how about the spouse I am abandoning? Am I not sinning against her? The Church teaches that we give our selves totally to our spouses marry. We are expected, under Church law, to live with one another:

Can. 1151 Spouses have the duty and right to preserve conjugal living unless a legitimate cause excuses them.

 

[rcwitness]

According to this, my suggestion is only to uphold what is already established!

It just puts it in a real life application.

Do you think all these tribunal cases received permission from their Bishop to divorce?

 

[LittleFlower]

Well, it may make a good case for these annulment reasons:

Ignorance about the nature of marriage (Canon 1096, sec. 1)
You or your spouse did not know that marriage is a permanent relationship between
a man and a woman ordered toward the procreation of offspring by means of some
sexual cooperation.

Willful exclusion of marital permanence (Canon 1101, sec. 2)
You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, not to create a
permanent relationship, retaining an option to divorce.

From https://www.stmarys-waco.org/documents/Grounds for Marriage Annulment in the Catholic Church.pdf

Of course, you should discuss this with your priest but no one can stop you or your spouse seeking a civil divorce.

I have not yet found a conclusive direct statement that filing for civil divorce is a (mortal) sin. It is well documented that sinning after a civil divorce against purity, chastity or being an adulterer does not allow you to receive the Eucharist. That’s the whole issue with divorce and remarriage.

In the PDF about seeking an annulment, they do not state permission is required to seek a divorce.

And from the USCCB: http://www.foryourmarriage.org/divorce/

From Time for An Update On Marriage, Divorce, and Nullity, Archdiocese of Chicago:

Church law states that if either of the spouses causes “serious danger of spirit or body to the other spouse or the children, or otherwise renders common life too hard,” the spouses may separate (c1153.1). The Church is always concerned that human life must be protected from things that would destroy it. If the marriage relationship is threatening the life or well being one of the parties or the children, or if the continuation of the relationship has truly become intolerable, then the Church reminds us of our responsibility to protect human life in all its form, and allows for the separation of the spouses.

From Declaring a Marriage Null, p.3, Archdiocese of Anchorage:

Catholics who are divorced but who have not entered another civil marriage are encouraged to practice their faith fully, including participating in the sacraments. Merely being separated or divorced does not change one’s status in the church. Divorced Catholics are full members of the church with all of the same rights as any other member. Catholics who are divorced and who have remarried, without a declaration of nullity, are not free to receive the sacraments, but are encouraged to practice the other aspects of their faith, pending a decision by the tribunal regarding their former marriage.

I am unfamiliar with that source: Canon Law Explained | Mary's Advocates and the author. I have not found any similar statements across the commonly used resources of this forum.

I am happy to be proven wrong. But again, you have to provide multiple sources that actually verify what you are trying to argue.