Is contraception the answer to reducing abortions?

[fix]

I agree with you, but you won’t find much support here. I’ve got the lumps and bruises to prove it.

I think a truly responsible parent needs to teach their children all the options, minus abortion. Emphasize abstinence first, but also educate on the other options.

Why minus abortion?

 

[fix]

I don’t support the concept of sin. I don’t believe Jesus did either. I certainly don’t believe sex is sinful. You need to sell this idea to someone else.
Will you kindly support your last sentence with proof of your assertion. The rate of abortion in America is falling. No one is clear why but nobody who is sane or has brains is looking for this kind of sanctimonious blather as any kind of solution or explanation.
Your morality is no one’s imperative. Start at home. Catholic women make up 35% of the population and they have 32% of the abortions nationwide. If we listen to you, than only 3% of Cathoic women are not fornicators and sinners.
Can you not see the pure silliness of your assertions? Trust me, other people can.

So, you think using contraception improves matters? Turning the other into an instrument for pleasure is good?

 

[fix]

…
Thank you, dear God, for 35 years and counting of safe and legal abortion and contraception.
Stop pretending that Catholics support your position and are of one mind on this issue
In fact, 35% of the women in America are Catholics and they obtain 32% of the abortions nationwide.
How you all can ignore this spiritual schizophrenia is a mystery to me.

Catholics may accept moral truth or reject it, but they cannot make it up. That many dissent does not make truth become untruth.

 

[fix]

She is risking her very life either way - condoms are not 100% effective even when used correctly, and I seriously doubt that someone who is drunk would use it correctly.

He does not grasp the seriouness of fornication. These folks see condom=life and no condom=death. They fail to see that the issue is the fornication. They think a condom is a type of salvation. It is propaganda.

One of the basic problems is fornication is not seen as serious. If it were they would not be drawing lines at condom use, but much earlier. My analogies are seen as absurd simply because these folks see dwi, or robbery, or you name it, as more serious than sex outside marriage. Now, ask yourself why that is.

 

[lukewarm]

I agree with you, but you won’t find much support here. I’ve got the lumps and bruises to prove it.

I think a truly responsible parent needs to teach their children all the options, minus abortion. Emphasize abstinence first, but also educate on the other options.

Judging by the amount of PM’s I got a lot of people agree with me but are too afraid of these zealots here to speak up (who can blame them they link two teenagers messing around with rape, incest, murder and burning bodies or some other horror). To think we actually had a guy here say he would rather his daughter forego the condom so she doesn’t compound sins, and if she’s sinning anyway she may as well have fun. I mean how sick can you get. When it’s proven that a condom when used effectively can prevent HIV transmission with near 100% reliability. And to think this is the guy insulting me and ridiculing my parental abilities? I would be more outraged if I didn’t think that one day that same guy will think back to writing that with embarassment. I know in my days as a “die hard Catholic” I held to some pretty closed minded ridiculous ideas too so I blame the hold that organized religion has on the poor guy.

I feel badly for your children, most of you probably don’t even have any yet, but chances are they will throw off your overbearing religiosity to figure the world out for themselves, and they will be sadly unprepared to do so.

Not much more I can add to this topic, my hypothetical either shows you to be completely crazy if you want her to forego the condom, or shows you actually agree with me if you would want her to use one.

 

[manualman]

I love it when people throw statistics around to try to disprove the catholic faith. Most statistics aren’t worth the paper they are printed on. How did the surveyors define ‘catholic’ people. Just asking them? No surprise there then. We’ve had a crisis of faith and cathchesis for a good 30 years now. The majority of self-described catholics ARE no different than the culture at large. Most catholics today have parents like Lukewarm! (And Jesus had some things to say about those who are luke warm…)

Betcha a nice cold, frothy one that if you did such a survey of catholics who attend mass weekly, give more than 1% of their yearly income to their parish and go to confession at least yearly, those abortion and fornication numbers drop like a rock!

It shouldn’t surprise catholics that people immersed and at peace with the overall culture object to our worldview and values. That’s exactly what Jesus told us to expect. Why are we surprised??

 

[lukewarm]

Manualman your persistent idea that parents who teach social responsibility and don’t beat their kids over the head with religion somehow raise children with no morals has no basis in reality. It is simply a figment of your overactive imagination. “Religious” people behave no better than non-religious people on the common moral areas, in fact atheists seem to be the lowest in almost every category including abortion, divorce, fornication, crime etc… I think it has more to do with their education levels rather than credit to atheism but still. I’ll just say you’re flat out wrong in your ridiculous assumptions. In fact Catholics lead the charge in abortions.

 

[fix]

It shouldn’t surprise catholics that people immersed and at peace with the overall culture object to our worldview and values. That’s exactly what Jesus told us to expect. Why are we surprised??

Yep, it is about conscience. How can we see what is good or bad if we start with an incorrectly formed conscience?

 

[guanophore]

I agree with you, but you won’t find much support here. I’ve got the lumps and bruises to prove it.

I think a truly responsible parent needs to teach their children all the options, minus abortion. Emphasize abstinence first, but also educate on the other options.

Perhaps you don’t realize that most contraception is chemical abortion. The church (and science) teach that life begins at conception. Most artificial birth control kills the fertilized egg.

 

[guanophore]

In fact Catholics lead the charge in abortions.

Perhaps you don’t realize this, but a Catholic who procures an abortion excommunicates themselves from the Church. Such a person can no longer be considered a Catholic, but is an apostate. They probably fell from grace long before the abortion, but such an act places oneself outside the grace needed for salvation.

 

[lukewarm]

Perhaps you don’t realize this, but a Catholic who procures an abortion excommunicates themselves from the Church. Such a person can no longer be considered a Catholic, but is an apostate. They probably fell from grace long before the abortion, but such an act places oneself outside the grace needed for salvation.

Well then they were Catholics right up until they “procured the abortion” and were ex’d… I wonder why the most liberal abortion supporting states are dominated by Catholics? What is it they say “you shall know them by their fruits”? Catholics in America by in large are the biggest proponents of abortion and procure the most abortions than any other religious group, many more than atheists. I wouldn’t bother bringing it up if there wasn’t the constant false assumption that unless we beat our children over the heads with religion they will become hedonists and wild sinners. The assumption is baseless and anything we know from statistics seems to contradict that point head on.

 

[fix]

Is truth determined by how many Catholics are faithful or not?

 

[wanner47]

Well then they were Catholics right up until they “procured the abortion” and were ex’d… I wonder why the most liberal abortion supporting states are dominated by Catholics? What is it they say “you shall know them by their fruits”? **Catholics in America by in large are the biggest proponents of abortion and procure the most abortions than any other religious group, many more than atheists. **I wouldn’t bother bringing it up if there wasn’t the constant false assumption that unless we beat our children over the heads with religion they will become hedonists and wild sinners. The assumption is baseless and anything we know from statistics seems to contradict that point head on.

Can you (or anyone) please provide a source for this claim (bolded)? I’ve yet to find any reliable abortion statistics that are categorized by religion.

 

[manualman]

Manualman your persistent idea that parents who teach social responsibility and don’t beat their kids over the head with religion somehow raise children with no morals has no basis in reality. It is simply a figment of your overactive imagination. “Religious” people behave no better than non-religious people on the common moral areas, in fact atheists seem to be the lowest in almost every category including abortion, divorce, fornication, crime etc… I think it has more to do with their education levels rather than credit to atheism but still. I’ll just say you’re flat out wrong in your ridiculous assumptions. In fact Catholics lead the charge in abortions.

I’ll let readers decide which of us is ridiculous, thanks. Were you a civilized debater, you’d acknowledge the difference between those who seek to impose values via dominance versus those who model christian values for their children as well as teach them. Instead, you need to demonize all people of faith as the former and pretend the latter do not exist.

Though you seem to have missed it, I freely acknowledge that what religious ‘label’ people profess may have no bearing on their behavior. But I speak from my own life experience when I promise you that when you delve deeper and separate the genuine believers from the lukewarm who retain a mere cultural veneer of faith, you find profound differences in behavior. Indeed the ‘cultural catholics’ create a great scandal for the faith, which is no doubt why Jesus promised to ‘spit them from his mouth.’

Keep watching. As this culture continues its descent to the sewer, you’ll see ever more profound differences amongst three goups: 1. those who embrace the values of the culture.
2. Those who recognize its banruptcy, but respond with bitterness and despair.
3. Those who know Jesus and embrace his message of hope and redemption for mankind (with ALL its implications on behavior).
You’ll have a harder time denying the existence of group #3 as time goes on!

As this thread no longer seems productive in any way, I bid you all farewell.

 

[Jennifer123]

Manualman your persistent idea that parents who teach social responsibility and don’t beat their kids over the head with religion somehow raise children with no morals has no basis in reality.

I have to say I’m getting quite tired of the mean-spirited language and false arguments. But yet we’re the irrational ones.

Anyhoo - you mentioned social responsibility. Can you tell me if teenage pregnancy and the raising of children by single parents a societal good? Sex equals pregnancy. Period. No contraceptive device is 100% effective.

Is it socially responsible to give immature teenagers condoms and birth control, which have plenty of ill health effects, none of which have been studied on the immature systems of children? We don’t allow teens access to medication like aspirin in schools but yet expect them to be “responsible” about birth control - especially when presented with scenarios which, in your own opinion, they cannot control themselves from making rational choices?

But yet we’re irrational.

 

[lukewarm]

I have to say I’m getting quite tired of the mean-spirited language and false arguments. But yet we’re the irrational ones.

What was mean spirited about what you quoted? Seriously I don’t get it, you’re the one calling me a terrible parent and throwing your own parents under the bus and using them as a scapegoat for your youthful wantoness instead of taking responsibility for your indescretions like I a simple heathen would.

Don’t sling mud then get upset when you get dirty…

Again very simple there is nothing mutually exclusive about teaching you children chastity, the benefits of waiting until marriage before sex, AND being realistic about the fact that there is a very large chance that your child will have sex before marriage, and if they do a condom is their best defense against an unwanted pregnancy which may lead to abortion and a slow painful death with HIV. All this blustering and whining is just blowing smoke and beating strawmen.

If you can honestly say that if your daughter was having sex with her boyfriend you would rather her forego the condom puting her at risk you can say I’m wrong, if you can’t say that, then you’re just beating a strawman.

 

[wanner47]

What was mean spirited about what you quoted? Seriously I don’t get it, you’re the one calling me a terrible parent and throwing your own parents under the bus and using them as a scapegoat for your youthful wantoness instead of taking responsibility for your indescretions like I a simple heathen would.

Don’t sling mud then get upset when you get dirty…

Again very simple there is nothing mutually exclusive about teaching you children chastity, the benefits of waiting until marriage before sex, AND being realistic about the fact that there is a very large chance that your child will have sex before marriage, and if they do a condom is their best defense against an unwanted pregnancy which may lead to abortion and a slow painful death with HIV. All this blustering and whining is just blowing smoke and beating strawmen.

If you can honestly say that if your daughter was having sex with her boyfriend you would rather her forego the condom puting her at risk you can say I’m wrong, if you can’t say that, then you’re just beating a strawman.

You don’t see anything contradictory in telling your children, “Don’t have sex; but if you do, use protection”?



Not a very strong argument. A kid is going to hear, “Go ahead and have sex as long as you use protection,” and s/he is ALSO going to think that using protection guarantees safety from STDs and unplanned pregnancy – none of which is true. Doesn’t that do kids a disservice?

Besides, lukewarm, you said in an earlier post that you didn’t intend to teach your children chastity (because, apparently, that’s an an unrealistic expectation, given that in your opinion all teenagers are hormone-crazed animals with no self-control).

You seem to think that no amount of teaching or catechesis will stop a teenager from having premarital sex, which simply isn’t the case. Poor catechesis – or no catechesis – will do jack and squat when it comes to teaching kids morality. But with GOOD catechesis, teens and and will gain the knowledge and the tools to live chaste, holy lives. And if they do sin, then they deal with the consequences and in doing so hopefully learn something from their mistakes as opposed to seeking a magic pill to make the problem go away.

 

[lukewarm]

You don’t see anything contradictory in telling your children, “Don’t have sex; but if you do, use protection”?

No not at all… Same way I’ll say don’t drink or get drunk but if you never do never get behind a wheel, I’ll be there to pick you up no questions asked.

A kid is going to hear, “Go ahead and have sex as long as you use protection,”

Only if your kid has a learning disability, most kids aren’t as black and white thinkers as you folks, there minds are open, they can understand two things not being mutually exclusive.

Besides, lukewarm, you said in an earlier post that you didn’t intend to teach your children chastity

I did? Interesting you shouldn’t have a problem quoting me then…
I think you have a problem with the accuracy of your statements. My statements have been very simple to the point and accurate, you are commenting on what either your or someone has drawn from my statements eroneously.

 

[wanner47]

No not at all… Same way I’ll say don’t drink or get drunk but if you never do never get behind a wheel, I’ll be there to pick you up no questions asked.

But that’s not the correct analogy. The correct analogy would be, “Don’t drive drunk, but if you do, make sure you’re in a car with airbags.”

If you used the analogy in your post with contraception, it’d be, “Don’t have sex, but if you do, I’ll be there to help you deal with the consequences of your bad choice.”

Only if your kid has a learning disability, most kids aren’t as black and white thinkers as you folks, there minds are open, they can understand two things not being mutually exclusive.

But why would they bother to be chaste – or even TRY to be chaste – if you’re giving them “permission” not to be? The message you’re conveying is, “Well, in THEORY I don’t want you to have sex, but I know that you’re a hormone-crazed animal with no control over your own sexual impulses, so when you do have sex use protection.”

And if you just say “Don’t have sex” without explaining your reasoning, or without giving them the knowledge and the tools necessary to persevere in a chaste lifestyle, then you’re setting them up for failure (and giving them inadequate tools – i.e., contraception – with which to protect themselves).

I did? Interesting you shouldn’t have a problem quoting me then…
I think you have a problem with the accuracy of your statements. My statements have been very simple to the point and accurate, you are commenting on what either your or someone has drawn from my statements eroneously.

“I believe premarital sex is largely innevitable within society save a few strong willed adolescents, any society, at any time will engage in premarital sex en masse that’s just a fact of life.”

“Of course and we take preventative measures to guard against the innevitable (I won’t call it evil) lapse of good judgment. I see contraception as guarding as best I can against the inevitable actions of my children.”

“…children rarely think in terms of eternity, they are impulsive and think in the here and now)… But you got your way of parenting I got mine…” (a question – children are impulsive and think in the here and now, but you expect them to plan ahead enough to use contraception?)

“Go ahead and bank on your children being good boys and girls and not didling each other until they’re legally married in their late 20’;s, good luck with that pipe dream… Hopefully someone with good enough sense will show them how to protect themselves from the ill effects of the innevitable “lapse” they **WILL **have.”

“The two are not mutually exclusive, you can teach your children the virtues of chastity and show them how to protect themselves if they were to fail (which they probably will sorry to say).”

“No it’s because I understand that a vast amount of young people do fall into that sin as did I and probably as did you…You can’t answer the question because if you answer it honestly it completely undermines your entire position. OF COURSE you would INSIST your daughter tell the boy to use a condom. You can tell children to not partake in any sin but I understand thier human nature and the fact that they will sin. I understand they are human not little automatons.”

And so on. You go on and on about how you can teach chastity to teens but what’s the point since they’re only going to have sex anyway?

All bolding in the quotes above was added by me.

 

[Jennifer123]

What was mean spirited about what you quoted? Seriously I don’t get it, you’re the one calling me a terrible parent and throwing your own parents under the bus and using them as a scapegoat for your youthful wantoness instead of taking responsibility for your indescretions like I a simple heathen would.

Don’t sling mud then get upset when you get dirty…

Again very simple there is nothing mutually exclusive about teaching you children chastity, the benefits of waiting until marriage before sex, AND being realistic about the fact that there is a very large chance that your child will have sex before marriage, and if they do a condom is their best defense against an unwanted pregnancy which may lead to abortion and a slow painful death with HIV. All this blustering and whining is just blowing smoke and beating strawmen.

If you can honestly say that if your daughter was having sex with her boyfriend you would rather her forego the condom puting her at risk you can say I’m wrong, if you can’t say that, then you’re just beating a strawman.

Okay - it’s pretty obvious you don’t really understand the “strawman argument” because that is all you have consistently presented here.
And I too will bow out from this convo - it’s pretty pointless to engage someone who repeatedly insults us with name-calling. Pearls before swine anyone?