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po18guy
Well-known member
Teaching sexual morality will reduce abortion. To teach contraception is to teach lack of self control. Once self-control fails, the “well intended” contraceptive practices fail soon after. Abortions then rise. Morality works every time it is applied.
Christ’s peace.
po18guy
Well-known member
It’s on page 24, paragraph 4 of the Bigot’s Bible.
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lukewarm
Guest
First off yes I do understand the strawman argument it’s what I’ve been attacked with non stop in this thread. Second YOU insulted ME several times and again in this last exchange. So get off your moral high horse…Okay - it’s pretty obvious you don’t really understand the “strawman argument” because that is all you have consistently presented here.
And I too will bow out from this convo - it’s pretty pointless to engage someone who repeatedly insults us with name-calling. Pearls before swine anyone?
Still waiting for that quote where I said I won’t teach my kids chastity, I don’t see it anywhere…
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fix
Guest
Here is the heart of the matter. If fornication is just messing around then I can see why contraception seems like a good choice.
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mom_of_ten
Guest
I wanted to comment that many contraceptives are abortificients…in other words…though it might reduce a procured abortion…it might still be aborting a baby within.
Secondly, God clearly showed how He felt about the sin of Onanism (which is the earliest form of contraception found in Scripture), as He immediately SLEW Onan for not being open to life; and spilling his seed.
I could possibly, eventually reduce the number of rapes in the world, or murders, if I went out and killed all of the rapists, and murderers…sin for sin…eventually it would reduce the numbers…but would that be right…the answer seems obvious.
Finally, if I might inquire about one of the posts signed by a "Father George Leiman(sp?)…is this a Catholic priest? And was my understanding of the post correct in that it seemed to imply that this author condones contraception. If the author is a Catholic priest, would you clarify your stance for me? Thank you.
God Bless You All…and may you always remain open to LIFE.
Judy
Secondly, God clearly showed how He felt about the sin of Onanism (which is the earliest form of contraception found in Scripture), as He immediately SLEW Onan for not being open to life; and spilling his seed.
I could possibly, eventually reduce the number of rapes in the world, or murders, if I went out and killed all of the rapists, and murderers…sin for sin…eventually it would reduce the numbers…but would that be right…the answer seems obvious.
Finally, if I might inquire about one of the posts signed by a "Father George Leiman(sp?)…is this a Catholic priest? And was my understanding of the post correct in that it seemed to imply that this author condones contraception. If the author is a Catholic priest, would you clarify your stance for me? Thank you.
God Bless You All…and may you always remain open to LIFE.
Judy
po18guy
Well-known member
When we rationalize sin, attempting to moderate it with yet another sin, the Lord takes note. It is just this worldly rationalization of sin that has brought us to the terrible state our culture is in. Our loss of the sense of sin is our downfall.
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wanner47
Guest
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mom_of_ten
Guest
I’m sorry…may I ask a personal question? (I guess I may ask, but you need not answer, right?)
Are the authors who are condoning the use of contraception claiming to be Catholic? It would be heresy to oppose the Teaching of the Church; and further, would, I think, be Schismatic to openly teach heretical teachings to children, or openly live in a way that is opposed to Church Teaching.
Also, it is NEVER inevitable that teens or ANYONE will fornicate…possible, yes…likely, sometimes; depending on the state of that person’s soul…but inevitable…NEVER…The Sanctifying Grace of the Holy Spirit makes PURITY and CHASTE living, not only possible, but INEVITABLE; unless one strays from that Grace…I personally know MANY teens who have waited and ARE waiting (SUCCESSFULLY) until marriage to engage in the MARITAL RELATIONSHIP…which is what SEX is…a MARITAL relationship.
Heresy and Schism are very GRAVE and SERIOUS things…if one is truly Catholic; and having beliefs that oppose Church Teaching; one should seek the counseling of a Catholic Priest right away.
May God Bless You,
Judy
Are the authors who are condoning the use of contraception claiming to be Catholic? It would be heresy to oppose the Teaching of the Church; and further, would, I think, be Schismatic to openly teach heretical teachings to children, or openly live in a way that is opposed to Church Teaching.
Also, it is NEVER inevitable that teens or ANYONE will fornicate…possible, yes…likely, sometimes; depending on the state of that person’s soul…but inevitable…NEVER…The Sanctifying Grace of the Holy Spirit makes PURITY and CHASTE living, not only possible, but INEVITABLE; unless one strays from that Grace…I personally know MANY teens who have waited and ARE waiting (SUCCESSFULLY) until marriage to engage in the MARITAL RELATIONSHIP…which is what SEX is…a MARITAL relationship.
Heresy and Schism are very GRAVE and SERIOUS things…if one is truly Catholic; and having beliefs that oppose Church Teaching; one should seek the counseling of a Catholic Priest right away.
May God Bless You,
Judy
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lukewarm
Guest
Hmmmm I still don’t see that part where I say I will not teach my children the benefits of abstinence and chastity, must not be looking in the right place. I know you wouldn’t be so dishonest as to make such a bold claim without the proper reference so it must be somewhere.
In fact I know I’ve stated no less than 10 tens in this thread I WILL teach them the benefits of chastity and abstinence, but again you wouldn’t lie outright, I know that…
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guanophore
Guest
I agree with you, most Catholics don’t know their faith, and do not understand the teachings of the Church. They are “nominal” catholics. Instead of being light and salt on the earth, they end up lying down with the dogs and getting up with the fleas. It is amazing how many bumper stickers you see that say “Cathlic and pro-Choice”…
But the goal is to raise up a child in the way they should go (with correct moras) so that when they get older, they will not depart from right ways.
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wanner47
Guest
No, all YOU’VE said is that it’s possible to teach kids (in general) both chastity and how to use protection, but that you SHOULD teach them how to use protection because they’ll inevitably have sex anyway.
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jmcrae
Guest
You have said that you will teach them to contracept; that is quite a different thing that teaching them how to remain chaste. Chastity is not merely to refrain from sex outside of marriage; it is a lifestyle and attitude. A girl or boy who is not having sex may or may not be chaste, and if they are not chaste, then the chances that they will have sex outside of marriage at some point are greatly increased.
But if a girl or boy is taught how to be chaste - taught to pray daily for his or her future spouse, and to dream-build a life of goodness, and to seek out friends and acquaintances who are also chaste, then the chances become reduced. A chaste girl, for example, would not find herself naked at a frat party; she would not even be invited. She’s at a different party that night, playing Rosary games, doing Bible sword drills, and dream-building about a good job, a nice husband, future children, etc.
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lukewarm
Guest
WOW you are out of touch, do you have any children? If not when was the last time you were a 19-23 year old? Did you play rosary games, Bible sword drills etc…?
Again you CAN teach a child the benefits of chastity AND teach them that if they ever do fail and dissapoint to be sure to be safe as possible. The two are NOT mutually exclusive! If you disagree with that fine, but you can’t offer a single shred of proof or evidence that your way is the correct line of thinking. It’s nothing other than your imagination.
Sorry if I accept reality that my kids probably won’t be playing rosary games whatever the heck those are when they’re away at College. But I do know there’s no problem in teaching a child to wait for sex and how to protect themselves in the meantime.
po18guy
Well-known member
Dude, you’re teaching failure! Saint Paul, or the Apostle Paul, if you prefer, said the following for a reason: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God”.
Is that too old-fashioned? How does the acceptance of immorality teach children success, or holiness? If you teach contraception, you teach abortion. When the “inevitable” sexual sin occurs, and contraception fails, abortion follows. After all, it was just a “non-viable tissue mass”. The road to where? is paved with good intentions?
Christ’s peace and holiness be with you.
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jmcrae
Guest
I’m just curious, Luke - do you say to your children, “I expect you to get good grades in school and then go to University or College, but if you don’t, there is always Welfare.”
Because it seems to me that you are absolutely assuming that your children will be going to College. I’m sensing you have the attitude (and I’m sure your children pick up on it) that although other people’s kids may fail, yours will not.
And as a consequence of that expectation, your kids work hard in school and get good grades so that they won’t disappoint you.
That’s the same attitude that has to be brought into the teaching of chastity - that the fact that other people might fail has nothing to do with YOU my child. YOU will succeed; you don’t have a choice in the matter.
Because it seems to me that you are absolutely assuming that your children will be going to College. I’m sensing you have the attitude (and I’m sure your children pick up on it) that although other people’s kids may fail, yours will not.
And as a consequence of that expectation, your kids work hard in school and get good grades so that they won’t disappoint you.
That’s the same attitude that has to be brought into the teaching of chastity - that the fact that other people might fail has nothing to do with YOU my child. YOU will succeed; you don’t have a choice in the matter.
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mom_of_ten
Guest
I just wanted to encourage “lukewarm” to visit colleges such as Ave Maria, or Christendom, or Franciscan University. The chaste students are there having all kinds of parties that involve prayer, fun, rosaries, and wholesome dreaming with friends.
Also, I know PLENTY of young people in their teens and early twenties who have never and would never take part in the sinful and immoral situations you describe at frat parties…and yes, I do have children; 10 of them…and yes, I HAVE been to colleges in recent years where students are Christ centered and happy, healthy, chaste people…I am inspired by them, and thankful for them; as it gives us HOPE for the future of the Church and the world at large!
God Bless!
Also, I know PLENTY of young people in their teens and early twenties who have never and would never take part in the sinful and immoral situations you describe at frat parties…and yes, I do have children; 10 of them…and yes, I HAVE been to colleges in recent years where students are Christ centered and happy, healthy, chaste people…I am inspired by them, and thankful for them; as it gives us HOPE for the future of the Church and the world at large!
God Bless!
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jmcrae
Guest
I was a 19-23 year old in the late 1970s and early 80s, before the world had heard of AIDS, yet - it was probably the height of the sexual revolution, because there was no known STD at that time that could not be cured, there was every kind of birth control and sex toy (lollipop condoms, anybody?) - and yes, I was going to the sort of parties where we prayed, took turns with the guitar to play and sing hymns, did Bible sword drills, drank gingerale with frozen orange juice, baked cookies for each other, went for drives out to the mountains in the early morning to watch the sun rise so that we could sing “Sun’s Up” by Bruce Cockburn and take turns reading aloud from the Passion According to St. John, and eat a lot of pizza and play all sorts of Bible and Church related games.
If we could do it then, they can certainly do it now.
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Swan
Guest
Okay, I’ve been lurking on the sidelines long enough; I’ve got to step in and agree with Lukewarm even if it means incuring the wrath of those who disagree. Let me share some personal history with you: I am a 49 year old woman who was raised Southern Baptist, no sex, no drinking, etc… My family is very conservative and I was raised to be the same way - as were most of my friends. Well, guess what? We rebelled. We had boyfriends and we had sex. Birth control pills were harder to get back then so we look some big risks. Luckily, we didn’t get any STDs (and this was pre-AIDS) and didn’t get pregnant though we knew girls who did. Most of them had abortions because they were terrified of their parents - see, they had been raised so strick and warned about hell, etc., so the very idea of talking to their folks was out of the question (in these cases those strict rules kind of backfired). None of us felt we could talk to our parents about our sexual feelings and the urges we had as a result of going through puberty - so we talked to each other - the blind leading the blind. We felt our parents were out of touch and had no idea of the reality we were living and they didn’t try to understand. This is a classic story of teen angst and alienation from parents and it’s a lot more common now than it was 30-odd years ago. Kids reach a certain age, back then it was 16 or so, when although not adults, they aren’t children anymore either. And you can’t hide your kids from the world forever. How will they be prepared to live in today’s society if they are naive? Why can’t you just give them all the facts? Show you think they are capable of making the right decision instead of making it for them? You could say something like, “those who believe in using birth control use: give examples. But, of course, we know that’s wrong.”
Yes, I agree that I made a lot of mistakes, but my point is that all the threats in the world didn’t stop me and I wasn’t alone. My sponser when I became Catholic was tradtional and brought her kids up just as you are suggesting. One day her 16 year old daughter came home in her Catholic school uniform and announced she was pregnant. Do you really think your kids deserve to possibly die as a result of making a mistake (should they get AIDS)? Don’t you want them to feel they can come to you with questions and concerns and that you will listen to them and respect their feelings instead of damning them? Some kids will abstain and some won’t and you can’t tell from upbringing which they will be (part of the point of my story). I dont’t have kids but if I did I’d tell them my story, let them know I made mistakes and hope they could learn from them. But I’d be realistic enough to know that they might not. And I’d be there for them when they realized their error, and I’d forgive them (as would God) and I’d love them and I’d be glad they knew enough to protect themselves so I didn’t have to watch them die.
As I said at the start, I know a lot of people will disagree, but I thought you might benefit from hearing a real story instead of just theorizing on the hypothetical. Growing up is hard because there are so many things to learn and experience, being a parent is hard because you know how painful learning and experience can be. Try to work together and love each other. Trust and be willing to forgive. You’re the only parents your kids get.
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wanner47
Guest
Swan, it doesn’t sound to me like any of the kids in the examples you mention were taught about the importance of chastity nor given the information and tools necessary to live a chaste life. It sounds to me like there was bad communication between the parents and children – indicating that no decent catechesis was going on.As I said at the start, I know a lot of people will disagree, but I thought you might benefit from hearing a real story instead of just theorizing on the hypothetical. Growing up is hard because there are so many things to learn and experience, being a parent is hard because you know how painful learning and experience can be. Try to work together and love each other. Trust and be willing to forgive. You’re the only parents your kids get.
We are not advocating just telling kids, “Don’t have sex because it’s wrong” and refusing to speak about the subject ever again. We are talking about having frequent and consistent conversations about the subject, giving our kids plenty of reading and audio material (such as from pureloveclub.com or Dawn Eden’s book “The Thrill of the Chaste”), engaging in active discussions about chastity and why it’s important, sharing the Church’s teachings on the subject, and most importantly LIVING that example for them – and doing all of the above EVERY DAY if necessary.
Was that your experience?
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