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Hugh_Farey
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Does anybody except you support your claim? I think you’re hopelessly out of date. Try: https://news.nationalgeographic.com...ark-found-in-turkey-science-religion-culture/
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Hugh_Farey
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That was during an ice age, as you know (if you were listening in class). Unless you went to a Creationist School (is there such a thing?), you were certainly not taught that there was an ice age while Noah was building his boat.
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edwest211
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Yes, I was taught this as well. Other Migration Theories - Bering Land Bridge National Preserve (U.S. National Park Service)
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buffalo
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It is not the same site. Still they should dig.
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benjamin1973
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Ahhhhhh. So BABY kangaroos and koalas swam across the oceans, however tiny they were back in those days, in order to line up in mating pairs and get onto Noah’s ark? And. . . penguins, being faces with giant land bridges. . . walked? How long did this ark take to build, because I don’t think a penguin can walk that far in its lifetime.
I’m learning, I’m learning. So pray tell. Was the ark in the water? Or was it on dry land until the flood began?
I’m learning, I’m learning. So pray tell. Was the ark in the water? Or was it on dry land until the flood began?
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buffalo
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As far as we know the ark was built on land and took 100 years or so. Animals have migratory senses and how God could have accomplished this.
Before the flood we do not know how close all these animals were. Perhaps all the “kinds” lived close. After the flood they became isolated and “speciated”. In the case of kangaroos, they survived in Australia.
An issue is thinking what we observe today can be extrapolated past the flood to creation.
Marsupial fossils have been found in Eurasia and North America.
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edwest211
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Rafting across the ocean, on mats of vegetation, is a documented phenomenon that caused the transfer of animals from one continent to the other.
"Rafting has played an important role in the colonization of isolated land masses by mammals. Prominent examples include Madagascar, which has been isolated for ~120 million years (Ma), and South America, which was isolated for much of the Cenozoic. Both land masses, for example, appear to have received their primates by this mechanism. According to genetic evidence, the common ancestor of the lemurs of Madagascar appears to have crossed the Mozambique Channel by rafting between 50 and 60 Ma ago.[3][4][5] Likewise, the New World monkeys are thought to have originated in Africa and rafted to South America by the Oligocene, when the continents were much closer than they are today.[4] Madagascar also appears to have received its tenrecs (25–42 Ma ago), nesomyid rodents (20–24 Ma ago) and euplerid carnivorans (19–26 Ma ago) by this route[5] and South America its caviomorph rodents (over 30 Ma ago).[6][7] Simian primates (ancestral to monkeys) and hystricognath rodents (ancestral to caviomorphs) are believed to have previously rafted from Asia to Africa about 40 Ma ago.[8]
"Among reptiles, several iguanid species in the South Pacific have been hypothesized to be descended from iguanas that rafted 10,000 kilometres (6,200 mi) from Central or South America[9] (an alternative theory involves dispersal of a putative now-extinct iguana lineage from Australia or Asia[10]). Similarly, a number of clades of American geckos seem to have rafted over from Africa during both the Paleogene and Neogene.[11] Skinks of the related genera Mabuya and Trachylepis also apparently both floated across the Atlantic from Africa to South America and Fernando de Noronha, respectively, during the last 9 Ma.[12] Skinks from the same group have also rafted from Africa to Cape Verde, Madagascar, the Seychelles, the Comoros and Socotra.[12] (Among lizards, skinks and geckos seem especially capable of surviving long transoceanic journeys.[12]) Surprisingly, even burrowing amphisbaenians[13] and blind snakes[14] appear to have rafted from Africa to South America.
"An example of a bird that is thought to have reached its present location by rafting is the weak-flying South American hoatzin, whose ancestors apparently floated over from Africa.[15]
"Colonization of groups of islands can occur by an iterative rafting process sometimes called island hopping. Such a process appears to have played a role, for example, in the colonization of the Caribbean by mammals of South American origin (including caviomorphs and monkeys).[16]
"Rafting has played an important role in the colonization of isolated land masses by mammals. Prominent examples include Madagascar, which has been isolated for ~120 million years (Ma), and South America, which was isolated for much of the Cenozoic. Both land masses, for example, appear to have received their primates by this mechanism. According to genetic evidence, the common ancestor of the lemurs of Madagascar appears to have crossed the Mozambique Channel by rafting between 50 and 60 Ma ago.[3][4][5] Likewise, the New World monkeys are thought to have originated in Africa and rafted to South America by the Oligocene, when the continents were much closer than they are today.[4] Madagascar also appears to have received its tenrecs (25–42 Ma ago), nesomyid rodents (20–24 Ma ago) and euplerid carnivorans (19–26 Ma ago) by this route[5] and South America its caviomorph rodents (over 30 Ma ago).[6][7] Simian primates (ancestral to monkeys) and hystricognath rodents (ancestral to caviomorphs) are believed to have previously rafted from Asia to Africa about 40 Ma ago.[8]
"Among reptiles, several iguanid species in the South Pacific have been hypothesized to be descended from iguanas that rafted 10,000 kilometres (6,200 mi) from Central or South America[9] (an alternative theory involves dispersal of a putative now-extinct iguana lineage from Australia or Asia[10]). Similarly, a number of clades of American geckos seem to have rafted over from Africa during both the Paleogene and Neogene.[11] Skinks of the related genera Mabuya and Trachylepis also apparently both floated across the Atlantic from Africa to South America and Fernando de Noronha, respectively, during the last 9 Ma.[12] Skinks from the same group have also rafted from Africa to Cape Verde, Madagascar, the Seychelles, the Comoros and Socotra.[12] (Among lizards, skinks and geckos seem especially capable of surviving long transoceanic journeys.[12]) Surprisingly, even burrowing amphisbaenians[13] and blind snakes[14] appear to have rafted from Africa to South America.
"An example of a bird that is thought to have reached its present location by rafting is the weak-flying South American hoatzin, whose ancestors apparently floated over from Africa.[15]
"Colonization of groups of islands can occur by an iterative rafting process sometimes called island hopping. Such a process appears to have played a role, for example, in the colonization of the Caribbean by mammals of South American origin (including caviomorphs and monkeys).[16]
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edwest211
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"A remarkable example of iterative rafting has been proposed for spiders of the genus Amaurobioides.[17][18] Members of this genus inhabit coastal sites and build silken cells which they seal at high tide; however, they do not balloon. DNA sequence analysis suggests that ancestors of the genus dispersed from southern South America to South Africa about 10 million years (Ma) ago, where the most basal clade is found; subsequent rafting events then took the genus eastward with the Antarctic Circumpolar Current to Australia, then to New Zealand and finally to Chile by about 2 Ma ago.[18] Another example among spiders is the species Moggridgea rainbowi, the only Australian member of a genus otherwise endemic to Africa, with a divergence date of 2 to 16 Ma ago.[19]
“However, oceanic dispersal of terrestrial species may not always take the form of rafting; in some cases, swimming or simply floating may suffice. Tortoises of the genus Chelonoidis arrived in South America from Africa in the Oligocene;[20] they were probably aided by their ability to float with their heads up, and to survive up to six months without food or fresh water.[20] South American tortoises then went on to colonize the West Indies and Galápagos Islands. The dispersal of anthracotheres from Asia to Africa about 40 Ma ago,[8] and the much more recent dispersal of hippos (relatives and probably descendants of anthracotheres) from Africa to Madagascar may have occurred by floating or swimming.[5]”
“However, oceanic dispersal of terrestrial species may not always take the form of rafting; in some cases, swimming or simply floating may suffice. Tortoises of the genus Chelonoidis arrived in South America from Africa in the Oligocene;[20] they were probably aided by their ability to float with their heads up, and to survive up to six months without food or fresh water.[20] South American tortoises then went on to colonize the West Indies and Galápagos Islands. The dispersal of anthracotheres from Asia to Africa about 40 Ma ago,[8] and the much more recent dispersal of hippos (relatives and probably descendants of anthracotheres) from Africa to Madagascar may have occurred by floating or swimming.[5]”
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edwest211
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Camels in America.
“The genus Camelops first appeared during the Middle Pliocene (~4.0-3.2 Ma) in southern North America and became extinct at the end of the Pleistocene. Despite the fact that camels are presently associated with the deserts of Asia and Africa, the family Camelidae, which comprises camels and llamas, originated in North America during the middle Eocene period, at least 44 million years ago.[4] The camel and horse families originated in the Americas and migrated into Asia via the Bering Strait.[5] Modern camels are descended from the extinct genus Paracamelus, which crossed the Bering land bridge ~7.5~6.5 Ma into Asia. The divergence between these two genera was about 11-10 Ma. Paracamelus would continue to live in North America as the High Arctic Camel Until the Middle Pleistocene.”
“The genus Camelops first appeared during the Middle Pliocene (~4.0-3.2 Ma) in southern North America and became extinct at the end of the Pleistocene. Despite the fact that camels are presently associated with the deserts of Asia and Africa, the family Camelidae, which comprises camels and llamas, originated in North America during the middle Eocene period, at least 44 million years ago.[4] The camel and horse families originated in the Americas and migrated into Asia via the Bering Strait.[5] Modern camels are descended from the extinct genus Paracamelus, which crossed the Bering land bridge ~7.5~6.5 Ma into Asia. The divergence between these two genera was about 11-10 Ma. Paracamelus would continue to live in North America as the High Arctic Camel Until the Middle Pleistocene.”
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benjamin1973
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My cat would love all that yarn! 
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benjamin1973
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You guys should co-ordinate with each other. You are giving pretty different accounts than each other. It’s ALMOST like you’re both just clinging to whatever you can to spin a rationale for your world view that allegory is historical fact.
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buffalo
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Hold on! That is what evolutionists do. And it is always changing…
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benjamin1973
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Science always involves speculation. That’s how it works: you observe, you make a hypothesis (you’d call it speculation), and then you attempt to confirm or disprove it.
But there’s a difference between looking at extremely highly-related fossils at different times and “speculating” that one is an evolved form of another, and “speculating” about how baby dinosaurs, non-middle-Eastern species, and so on, migrated all the way over to Noah’s ark.
One is speculation that best fits the data, and will be immediately discounted. One is a completely fabricated fairy tale meant to support an allegory as a literal truth. That you and I are on different sides of which is which is telling: it shows that you have little regard for science, and I have little regard for the imaginative writings of ancient desert dwellers as historical texts.
We can both say to each other, I suppose: good luck with that.
But there’s a difference between looking at extremely highly-related fossils at different times and “speculating” that one is an evolved form of another, and “speculating” about how baby dinosaurs, non-middle-Eastern species, and so on, migrated all the way over to Noah’s ark.
One is speculation that best fits the data, and will be immediately discounted. One is a completely fabricated fairy tale meant to support an allegory as a literal truth. That you and I are on different sides of which is which is telling: it shows that you have little regard for science, and I have little regard for the imaginative writings of ancient desert dwellers as historical texts.
We can both say to each other, I suppose: good luck with that.
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buffalo
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I have great respect for correctly reasoned science. I do not respect incorrectly reasoned science. I do not support methodological naturalism, as it is self limiting.
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edwest211
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I completely agree with the last sentence.
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Hugh_Farey
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Edwest! All those quotes - very impressive. They say that “the common ancestor of the lemurs of Madagascar appears to have crossed the Mozambique Channel by rafting between 50 and 60 Ma ago”, so I guess you believe the earth is older than that, and that lemurs were created before that; but then you also say that “The genus Camelops first appeared during the Middle Pliocene (~4.0-3.2 Ma)”, so camels were created around then?
But I thought you thought, in fact I know because you explicitly stated, that you were a literal six-day creationist.
So were you being dishonest then, or are you being dishonest now? It must be one or the other.
But I thought you thought, in fact I know because you explicitly stated, that you were a literal six-day creationist.
So were you being dishonest then, or are you being dishonest now? It must be one or the other.
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buffalo
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If you are a methodological naturalist you cannot be asking these questions. It is one or the other.
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Richca
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Interesting idea about the oceanic rafting theory and I suppose that is a possibility for some land creatures depending on the distance covered and especially of insects. I suppose also the Bering Strait is also a possibility of the migration of horses and camels into Asia. But, possibility does not necessarily translate to actuality or what actually happened. I personally favor the idea that the majority of the varieties or species of animals scattered across the earth and that are specific to a geographic location were created by God himself and placed in their respective geographic locations. Thus, though variety within a specific species is possible to some extent and indeed happens, for example the races of human beings, according to a natural but providentially directed ‘micro-evolutionary’ process, I believe that probably the majority of the ‘kinds’ or varieties within a species, for example, the kinds of cattle or big cats or monkeys etc were created by God himself and this I believe would be especially more true when these ‘kinds’ are geographically separated as on opposite sides of the earth.
As far as the propagation of even specific kinds of animals such as the African lions or horses or the Jaguars of the Americas, christians need not believe according to Holy Scripture (I think) that God followed the same plan for the propagation of such animals as His plan for the propagation of humans from a single couple. For example, we need not necessarily believe that God created only a single pair of African lions from which propagated the rest of African lions. He may have created a 100 pairs of lions and the same can be said for the rest of the species of animals.
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Hugh_Farey
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I just want to know what Edwest believes. Is that wrong?
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Hugh_Farey
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All well and good, Richca. And then couples of animals from all over the world made their way back to one particular place to get into the ark. Is that right?
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