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buffalo
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These laws would be…designed? …Intelligently?
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anon65111186
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Today I was thinking about the Genesis account and what the Jews were capable of when the human author sat down to write the account with the inspiration of God. It may be silly to some people, but there is a point.
The Jews had proto-scientific methods for measuring and weighing, correct?
Obviously God’s inspiration was not limited by the human author, but it also was meant for listeners at that time too.
Could God have described the clay in terms of how much it weighed, whether it was 5 pounds or 180 pounds? What color was it? Was it brown, grey, orange clay?
Also with the rib, was a 6 inch rib, 12 inch rib? Did it have flesh on it or was it purely bone? How much did it weigh and how did it become Eve, like if you set up a camera to observe, what would it look like?
Would that kind of description even be possible at the time of writing the Genesis account or would people even understand?
The Jews had proto-scientific methods for measuring and weighing, correct?
Obviously God’s inspiration was not limited by the human author, but it also was meant for listeners at that time too.
Could God have described the clay in terms of how much it weighed, whether it was 5 pounds or 180 pounds? What color was it? Was it brown, grey, orange clay?
Also with the rib, was a 6 inch rib, 12 inch rib? Did it have flesh on it or was it purely bone? How much did it weigh and how did it become Eve, like if you set up a camera to observe, what would it look like?
Would that kind of description even be possible at the time of writing the Genesis account or would people even understand?
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anon65111186
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Intelligently designed laws, which operated consistently and nearly without change, until God wanted to change or override them momentarily to walk on water, produce loaves and fish from little, turn water into wine, etc.
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Aloysium
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Why so Cartesian? Why should things run the way we understand them, when we don’t understand them at all?Sure, an Intelligent designer, but that Intelligence was so intelligent He could have things run on these things called natural laws which He wouldn’t have to override or tweak everytime He wanted a new species.
I’m assuming when you mean natural laws you are referring to electrochemical forces that act between atoms and molecules. If not what precisely do you mean. That sort of activity cannot in itself result in the simplest aspects of living physical processes. There has to be an aspect of nature, if you like, or God that brings material substances together under the holistic reality that is a living organism.
As to natural selection, it’s the bottom line, where what doesn’t fit, doesn’t fit. Genetic disorders demonstrate natural selection at work.
God does tweak His creation. He is always with us.
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buffalo
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His providence watches over and guides everything: “No creature is invisible before Him: all are bare and uncovered to His eyes” (Hebrews 4:13). His wisdom “extends from end to end mightily and governs all well” (Wisdom 8:1).
Divine Providence
Providence in general, or foresight, is a function of the virtue of prudence, and may be defined as the practical reason, adapting means to an end. As applied to God, Providence is God Himself considered in that act by which, in His wisdom, He so orders all events within the universe, that the end for which it was created may be realized. That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God. The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order. God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities. In spite of sin, which is due to the wilful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created. All these operations on God’s part, with the exception of creation, are attributed in Catholic theology to Divine Providence.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
Divine Providence
Providence in general, or foresight, is a function of the virtue of prudence, and may be defined as the practical reason, adapting means to an end. As applied to God, Providence is God Himself considered in that act by which, in His wisdom, He so orders all events within the universe, that the end for which it was created may be realized. That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God. The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order. God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities. In spite of sin, which is due to the wilful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created. All these operations on God’s part, with the exception of creation, are attributed in Catholic theology to Divine Providence.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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buffalo
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Adam and Eve had preternatural gifts and infused knowledge.
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anon65111186
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Sure sure okay, you’re correct, but how much did the clay weigh and what color was it? Was the rib 6 inches or 12, and did it have any meat or blood on it?
The account doesn’t seem to have an answer. But was even such an accounting possible?
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buffalo
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Sure. The Toledoths of Genesis posits that Moses was in possession of clay tablets that were written before. Colophon phrases were the key to this.
Would this detail be important? The lasting point is that Adam was created and Eve was taken from Adam and they were the first parents of all humans.
Would this detail be important? The lasting point is that Adam was created and Eve was taken from Adam and they were the first parents of all humans.
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anon65111186
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We have a pretty sophisticated physics, we know how the forces of nature work for the most part, though we can’t predict the weather. It’s not perfect, but we do know something.
Right there must be a connection between that and living things obviously, and is certainly explainable in scientific terms.
He is active though, what rules out tweaking things, making things better and better? Especially since He is always with us. He is tweaking our spiritual state to greater holiness, what says He isn’t doing the same in the material realm.
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anon65111186
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But we have no idea the contents of those tablets, do we?
I’ve just been trying to wrap my head around Genesis since this thread started 2000 posts ago.
If someone set up a camera in the garden of eden, how would we describe the video? I am trying to picture the events literal without getting too fantastic, because the terms of the account are pretty fantastic and unrealistic from today’s narrative literature standards.
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buffalo
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One only has to look at His interventions in history to see He is involved.
How about the graces received at Mass?
How about the graces received at Mass?
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anon65111186
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I witness the miracle of transubstantiation often, even just now today, so I guess I must qualify my statement, I have seen miracles, but the Adam and Eve story, literally taken seems just so vividly fantastic and a feast to the eyes. I’ve never seen anything like that in reality, only in movies and cartoons.
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buffalo
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When God created he said “it was good”. Imagine the garden and the animals and plants. They would be the prototypical forms in a pristine condition before corruption set in. The harmony and beauty would be astounding, the next best thing to heaven maybe. We cannot appreciate it at all. Adam and Eve too, would be perfect bodies and perhaps the glorified bodies we have been promised at the final judgement.
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rossum
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ID the science has no tested design detector. It claims to have such, but has never blind-tested it on designed and non-designed objects. If I missed the paper where the test results are given, then please show us the reference. An untested detector is, obviously, unreliable.
All hail Vishnu! All hail Amaterasu! (who is not a “Him”.)
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rossum
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We agree a mirage appears to contain water.
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buffalo
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That gives us such hope. We are so far removed from the garden it is tough to appreciate. The beauty and harmony would be astounding.
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anon65111186
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Right, that’s another thing. It is mysterious how there were glorified bodies, perfect bodies there, which are undying and destined for heaven, yet there are imperfect animals of all kinds around, probably dying in front of Adam and Eve even.
The fossil record seems to show quite a record of death even before the spiritual death of Adam and Eve.
I guess it didn’t matter that there was death in the animals.
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buffalo
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This is only a problem if creation was much longer than Scripture records.
These are the areas of contention and why we argue this stuff.
We either believe in the truth of Revelation or we don’t. I for one, hold Revelation as the standard that human derived science must measure itself against.
These are the areas of contention and why we argue this stuff.
We either believe in the truth of Revelation or we don’t. I for one, hold Revelation as the standard that human derived science must measure itself against.
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anon65111186
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Well then what about the dinosaurs, do you believe they existed? If so, were they in the garden of eden too?
If so, wouldn’t the T-Rex and other dinosaurs make for a pretty rough existence for the humans?
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buffalo
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Interesting question. In a harmonious state the dino’s would not be an issue. In a corrupted state they would be.
Dinosaur is a recently coined word. In the past they were called dragons. Scritpture described the one with a tail like a cedar.
In a more pristine higher oxygen content atmosphere things seemed to be bigger. I wonder how tall Adam was?
Dinosaur is a recently coined word. In the past they were called dragons. Scritpture described the one with a tail like a cedar.
In a more pristine higher oxygen content atmosphere things seemed to be bigger. I wonder how tall Adam was?
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