Is Darwin's Theory Of Evolution True? Part Two

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The Biology textbook has all the answers you need. Period. No need to add any God/gods to it. That’s all you need to know. The Church references can all be dismissed. They don’t matter in “the real world.” And if anyone thinks we aren’t monkey-men, you will be greatly criticized here.
 
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ChunkMonk:
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Rau:
It seems you believe that the theory of evolution is in itself an atheistic manifesto.
Most scientists would agree.
This is not true and you have absolutely zero basis for saying it, and that makes it slanderous.
You should retract in the interest of good faith discussion.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.582.879&rep=rep1&type=pdf

FYI - According to that survey 80% of evolutionary scientists said they did not believe in God. 90% said they did not believe in an afterlife.
 
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Perhaps it could carry on a discussion as to the nature of its soul, temporal or eternal, I don’t see how that can be determined from a few odd bones.
The issue of “soul” is pretty much impossible to determine because it leaves no trace, but fossil evidence often is often traceable. Assuming we have a soul, at what junction is it given, and exactly how do we know what we may think is correct? Is it possible God may have given early man a soul at some point back in time? Why not?

Souls I don’t know much about, but fossils I know quite a bit about.
 
Pure, 100% unadulterated speculation. Look at what science “thinks” (maybe) about our last common ancestor.
But it’s scientific “speculation” that’s based on something substantial versus speculation based on nothing. No matter how one cuts what we do know, the human fossil evidence points in the direction of a ape/human split, and the genome testing is telling us much the same, that it’s likely around 6-7 million b.p.

Also, if one thinks that we predetermine our research and hyptheses, then they sure and heck don’t understand much of anything about how we actually work.
 
I think we agree that from bone we cannot tell if a creature was human or not.

Thinking this out, a man would not have existed to be given a soul. And an animal possesses it own soul.

The question then is how was man formed from the earth?

Jesus was resurrected as we will be. That isn’t going to happen by any sort of evolutionary process. Jesus was incarnated in a human womb, man and God. It was not in an instant but to be fully human. We don’t know how we were shaped and it doesn’t matter because it was God who made it so for His purposes.

There was no randomness to our creation and we procreate as part of our psychospiritual make-up. Natural selection plays a role only in disease. There’s no evolution in any of this. The most we can say as believers is that perhaps God made preliminary sketches before He decided on the final physical form.

The intersection of eternity and time is understandable from outside of time; within time it is very confusing.
 
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FYI - According to that survey 80% of evolutionary scientists said they did not believe in God. 90% said they did not believe in an afterlife.
And your point is,.,…
That you wouldn’t take chemotherapy from an atheist doctor? That the earth is flat because scientists are atheists?

Please engage your reason and common sense. It’s the Catholic thing to do.
 
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Aloysium:
FYI - According to that survey 80% of evolutionary scientists said they did not believe in God. 90% said they did not believe in an afterlife.
And your point is,.,…
That you wouldn’t take chemotherapy from an atheist doctor? That the earth is flat because scientists are atheists?

Please engage your reason and common sense. It’s the Catholic thing to do.
You may wish to offer the person you addressed in post 631 an apology.
This is not true and you have absolutely zero basis for saying it, and that makes it slanderous.

You should retract in the interest of good faith discussion.
 
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“…the Catholic thing to do.”? Very sad when faith and science are mixed together like this. It’s wrong. “You’re not a good Catholic if…” you don’t sign on and agree.
 
The DNA and epigenetic programming is vastly different whic we would expect to see in design.
 
“…through the action of random evolutionary forces…
(Biology by Burton S. Guttman (1st ed., McGraw Hill, 1999), pgs. 36-37.)

“It is difficult to avoid the speculation that Darwin, as has been the case with others, found the implications of his theory difficult to confront. “
(Invitation to Biology, by Helena Curtis & N. Sue Barnes(3rd ed., Worth, 1981), pgs. 474-475.)
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These quotes show the difficulty people have with the philosophical implications of Darwinism. However these are not philosophers. Not ever Darwin himself was a very good philosopher, even though he was a first-rate scientist.

What some biology textbooks get wrong is that they are trying to tackle a difficult philosophical problem without sufficient background in philosophy. In particular, the concept of cause and effect is one that can be viewed both scientifically and philosophically. And these two views are so different that they really end up defining two different concepts - not just one concept viewed from two different perspectives.

From a philosophical perspective, cause and effect is complicated, as seen here. But from a scientific perspective, the discussion is quite different, as see here.

This is especially significant when speaking about God as an ultimate cause. The way in which God operates is not open to human experimentation and examination. Therefore we hypothesize or take on faith that God is an ultimate cause of many aspects of creation. In particular, it is well within God’s prerogative to cause something, and at the same time to arrange things so that something else appears as the cause, or to make it appear that the cause was random.

This is the case with evolution, where random variation plays a key role. We say random because to our senses it does appear random. And for all scientific purposes of modeling and prediction, it might as well be random. But one may also hold the belief that nothing in the universe is random, but that an all-powerful God could easily have caused everything that we call random.

The problem with theories like “Intelligent Design” is that they go further than philosophical speculation like this, and actually proposes that evidence of a cause and effect relationship from an intelligent designer outside of our physical world is scientifically observable. But when that evidence is examined, it is found to be lacking in conformance to the scientific method, and therefore does not strictly belong to that established field of inquiry. Wild speculation about probabilities abound. There is not common starting point with traditional science.
 
But one may also hold the belief that nothing in the universe is random, but that an all-powerful God could easily have caused everything that we call random.
ut when that evidence is examined, it is found to be lacking in conformance to the scientific method, and therefore does not strictly belong to that established field of inquiry. Wild speculation about probabilities abound. There is not common starting point with traditional science.
The neural impulses happening in your brain at the moment are random fluctuations when analyzed from a purely electrochemical perspective. We understand that they are not random at all when we find them related to perceptual and cognitive mental phenomena. This is analogous to the so-called random changes in genome that would correspond to variations in living organisms.

The issue you have with ID, is the same as I have with evolution. But whereas ID seems to be promoting itself as an alternate more comprehensive vision, evolution mocks science proclaiming itself to be fact when it is unprovable conjecture.
 
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We say random because to our senses it does appear random. And for all scientific purposes of modeling and prediction, it might as well be random. But one may also hold the belief that nothing in the universe is random, but that an all-powerful God could easily have caused everything that we call random.
Exactly. The process is indistinguishable - for us - from a random process. But some here (and quoted from elsewhere) conclude that must mean no God. They limit God to fit their own conception of how he acts. Unless science becomes metaphysical, it’s unacceptable to them. But cannot becsvuence if it does that.
 
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https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP961022.HTM
(the words of St John Paul 2)
  1. I am delighted with the first theme which you have chosen: the origin of life and evolution—an essential theme of lively interest to the Church, since Revelation contains some of its own teachings concerning the nature and origins of man. How should the conclusions reached by the diverse scientific disciplines be brought together with those contained in the message of Revelation? And if at first glance these views seem to clash with each other, where should we look for a solution? We know that the truth cannot contradict the truth. (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus)
By your efforts, you will mark out the path toward solutions which will benefit all of the human community. In the domain of nature, both living and inanimate, the evolution of science and its applications gives rise to new inquiries. The Church will be better able to expand her work insofar as we understand the essential aspects of these new developments.
  1. Before offering a few more specific reflections on the theme of the origin of life and evolution, I would remind you that the magisterium of the Church has already made some pronouncements on these matters, within her own proper sphere of competence.
In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points.
It is important to set proper limits to the understanding of Scripture, excluding any unseasonable interpretations which would make it mean something which it is not intended to mean. In order to mark out the limits of their own proper fields, theologians and those working on the exegesis of the Scripture need to be well informed regarding the results of the latest scientific research.
  1. Taking into account the scientific research of the era, and also the proper requirements of theology, the encyclical Humani Generis treated the doctrine of “evolutionism” as a serious hypothesis, worthy of investigation and serious study, alongside the opposite hypothesis. Pius XII added two methodological conditions for this study: one could not adopt this opinion as if it were a certain and demonstrable doctrine, and one could not totally set aside the teaching Revelation on the relevant questions. He also set out the conditions on which this opinion would be compatible with the Christian faith—a point to which I shall return.
Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis.* In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.
 
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https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP961022.HTM
cont’d
It is by virtue of his eternal soul that the whole person, including his body, possesses such great dignity. Pius XII underlined the essential point: if the origin of the human body comes through living matter which existed previously, the spiritual soul is created directly by God (“animas enim a Deo immediate creari catholica fides non retimere iubet”). (Humani Generis)

As a result, the theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. They are therefore unable to serve as the basis for the dignity of the human person.
 
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Does it really matter how our world came to be.
As long as God is the creator.
 
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