Is Darwin's Theory Of Evolution True? Part Two

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If you mean natural selection leading to changed physical traits, that’s easy to prove and is proven all the time.
Yes, but big deal. Such micro changes aren’t evidence that apes can evolve into humans or that rodents can evolve into whales.
I’d counsel against discarding evidence unless you’ve done as thorough a job as possible of investigating it, and please don’t be insulted, but it doesn’t seem that you have done that yet.
You’re right. For starters, I haven’t gained a PhD in paleontology and then spent 200 years personally examining the millions of fossils that have been discovered. In other words, I really don’t know what’s contained in the fossil record. But what I do know is, 99.999% of folks who accept evolution really don’t know either - they rely on the opinions of a relatively small number of scientists to “inform” them. Even professional paleontologists must rely on the opinions of their colleagues, since it is physically impossible for one person to study the entire fossil record.

The trouble with this “second-hand information” is, it is almost certain that 100% of this relatively small number of fossil experts are 110% convinced that evolution is an indisputable fact - and they therefore assess the fossil evidence with that pre-conception in mind. So it is highly likely that that their opinions are seriously biased in favour of evolution.
 
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Evolution by gene loss - that doesn’t exactly sound conducive to increases in functional complexity … rather, the opposite. And gene loss is interesting in light of Romans 8:21, “… the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay …”

Hey, perhaps humans will eventually lose so many genes that they will devolve into monkey-men … then into reptiles … then into amphibians … then into fish … and after 3.8 billion years, into bacteria! But will this be enough to convince evolutionists that bacterium didn’t evolve into humans in the first place? I guess it doesn’t matter, as our minds will be so devolved that we will no longer be capable of entertaining such thoughts.
 
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Okay thank you for being candid. I on the other hand have a hunch the Church will pretty much stick with evolution as it has, depending of course on the science as it evolves (no pun intended 🙂 )
My bet is, genetics will eventually prove that macroevolution is impossible. Then the Church will feel free to drop it.
 
Could sheep survive without human protection? These creatures are defenceless against predators, so how could they survive in the wild?
 
That’s fair enough. There are certainly many scientific “truths” that turn out just a generation to be completely false.

As for micro vs. macro change-- I mean, the idea is that given enough small changes, it will amount to a big change. This is a pretty sensible idea. That being said, I also have my doubts about some of evolution-- I’m not insensitive to the fact that some of that “science” is the spinning of plausible-sounding yarns.

An important difference with science is that there’s a sense that you COULD individually confirm, if you were willing to put in the work, some of the claims. You could go on dig sites and see fossils first-hand. You could re-do the radiometric dating of strata, and so on. A good example is of the moths we looked at a couple days ago; it turns out that the original science was debunked or put into question, but that someone else took up the gauntlet, redid the experiment, and confirmed the result.

My own position is that I’m open to the idea of God, and I think some of modern physics should make an atheist or agnostic (like me) at least seriously wonder. When it comes to scripture, especially ancient descriptions of cosmogony, vs. since observation, though, I think this: it’s always better to look for the living God, through religious living and constant philosophical or spiritual meditation, than to memorize texts about Him, and it’s always better to study the Universe for signs of his methods and plan than to take Bronze-age accounts and interpretations as the final say.

The last, I suppose, is heretical.
 
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As for micro vs. macro change-- I mean, the idea is that given enough small changes, it will amount to a big change. This is a pretty sensible idea.
Did one day a spider know how to make a web, while his fellow spiders didn’t ?
 
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A study published in the April 2013 edition of Intelligence reported that we’ve been losing a point per decade in the average IQ since Darwin’a time. This in spite of the Flynn effect that sees increases due to environmental factors like better nutrition and public health measures. It seems fitting that this possibly random trend as evolutionary theory would have it, has happened since people began believing it. It’s quite a fall, not surprising to old-timers, and simple answers don’t quite explain it. I’m of the opinion that if we use our God-given intellect to think of better ways to ignore Him, to satisfy lesser desires, and to kill one another, if we waste our time building toys to distract ourselves, He’s going to do what He has to, to get us back on track. If we pull ourselves away from the Truth and His saving graces, we are abandoning ourselves to the chaos that follows and nature will do what it does best in clearing out the mess. And, then we will have to account for what we’ve done.
 
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Behaviors are even harder to study than physical traits. It’s going to be pretty hard to find a 100 million-year-old spider web to compare with. I think in this case, a genetic comparison of spiders with other insects might shed some light but hmmm.
 
Did one day a spider know how to make a web, while his fellow spiders didn’t ?
One day a spider knew how to make a slightly better web than her fellow spiders. Because her web was slightly better she caught slightly more flies and so laid slightly more eggs than her fellow spiders which hatched into slightly more offspring than her fellow spiders.

Compound interest tells you the rest of the story, just set it up on a spreadsheet.

rossum
 
… But what I do know is, 99.999% of folks who accept evolution really don’t know either - they rely on the opinions of a relatively small number of scientists to “inform” them. Even professional paleontologists must rely on the opinions of their colleagues, since it is physically impossible for one person to study the entire fossil record.

The trouble with this “second-hand information” is, it is almost certain that 100% of this relatively small number of fossil experts are 110% convinced that evolution is an indisputable fact - and they therefore assess the fossil evidence with that pre-conception in mind. So it is highly likely that that their opinions are seriously biased in favour of evolution.
For those of you who like to study logical fallacies, the posting here is an example of “begging the question” or “circular reasoning.” Here is how.

The author complains that evolution is untrustworthy because we only know about it from experts who have studied the evidence. Why is that a problem? Because the experts seem to be largely in favor of evolution. Why is that a problem? Because evolution is untrustworthy, and people who promote an untrustworthy theory are not reliable. So in other words, evolution is untrustworthy because it is untrustworthy. Circular reasoning.
 
My bet is, genetics will eventually prove that macroevolution is impossible. Then the Church will feel free to drop it.
It is a no-risk bet because you can win the bet if it proven impossible, but you can never lose the bet because you can always say “I said eventually. We have to wait…”
 
the science as it evolves
Science evolves in the general sense of the word meaning that as a system of knowledge, it grows in complexity.
The theories of which it is comprised, do not evolve; they are each discarded and replaced by another which is more comprehensive with better explanatory value.
Natural selection for science has to do with the theory’s fit with the data - a dynamic relationship.
The data remains the same and grows, but how it is put together becomes more complex.

The fact is that none of science is random; it requires inspiration and a lot of hard work.

Since we are made in the image of God, an analogy may be made between our science and God’s creation.
The Logos brings it all into existence and our capacity of reason enables us to understand it.

The theory of evolution is like the geocentric model of the universe.
The sun rises and sets, the seasons come and go in cyclical fashion.
We put it together in places like Stonehenge and in the Mayan calendar.
Ptolemy used a plethora of data to construct a system that showed how the sun, moon, stars and planets travelled through the sky.
He is astrophysics’ version of Darwin and his meticulous notebooks.
In their vision of reality, at the centre of both is the earth, matter.

The fact is that it’s the sun and what it symbolizes - being (the giving of existence), that is the central point around which everything revolves.
Consider that being is not an attribute of a thing, but its core.
Whether it is an atom or we ourselves, there is a being, comprised of many parts that become one whole, individual and within a greater whole.

Theories, pulling things together into something coherent, are like species.
Individually, we understand a theory in our particular way, just as each member expresses the nature of its species.
And, theories get tweaked and change a bit; they are adapted.
But for advances to happen, there is an overhaul.
It’s the same with the growing complexity we see in nature.
We came into existence not as a variation of a pre-existing animal any more than heliocentrism is a variation of geocentrism.
The data is reformulated into something new in both cases.

How this happens, I can’t honestly say.
Although creation occurred long ago, it is maintained, i.e. brought into existence, in the moment, here and now.
So the growing complexity we find ontologically and temporally could have happened any which way God chose.

My preferred version, for what it’s worth, is symbolized by a butterfly or a seed and sees Adam and Eve as having a belly button. That said we are not descended from non-human hominids any more than I would be descended from the chicken that laid the egg I hypothetically ate this morning for breakfast.
 
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“selection by a mate” was one of the things that contribute to reproductive fitness.
Selection by a mate is of a different order than that of the random chemical reactions that cause errors in the genome. These errors are said to be behind the changes in phenotype which the environment either blindly accepts or rejects.

The capacity to select a mate is an important aspect of the instinctual life of the organism and is part of the overall reality of the environment, whose building blocks are atoms and chemicals. There is an order to the individual organism and to its environment, and the myriad of living creatures that it contains, that is assumed by evolutionary theory, but which it does not explain. Explanations of natural selection at a molecular level have been attempted and they sound totally absurd and contrived. That order, which constitutes the being-ness of the individual organism, with its instinctive ways of perceiving and reacting to what is other to it, remains unacknowledged by the “science” because it is immaterial and is best described as soul, for which one finds explanations in religion and metaphysics.

While it is pretty straight forward to reduce all instincts to what goes on in the cerebrum, since without it, the animal would not be able to express it’s nature, doing so however misses the reality of life itself and how it is expressed in the indivudual being of the organism within the environment of which it is a dynamic part.

I think the current theory of evolution will fall apart as true facts replace ideology and with the elimination of materialist metaphysics that contaminates the science. As the data expands, freed from the distortions of the theory, the study of life, understood from its roots in being will reveal a far greater picture.

Those of us who do not recognize God appear not to have much of an issue with the theory of evolution. Those who work on their relationship with God, see it within that context. While the data itself, a compilation of what what is and what was but is not now, is a testament to God’s glory, the theory itself is anything but. Its failings are obvious and it seems weird that people don’t see it.
 
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We are just about there as I have maintained and backed with science links over and over.
 
One day a spider knew how to make a slightly better web than her fellow spiders. Because her web was slightly better she caught slightly more flies and so laid slightly more eggs than her fellow spiders which hatched into slightly more offspring than her fellow spiders.
And we know this how?
Other then just making it up.
 
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rossum:
One day a spider knew how to make a slightly better web than her fellow spiders. Because her web was slightly better she caught slightly more flies and so laid slightly more eggs than her fellow spiders which hatched into slightly more offspring than her fellow spiders.
And we know this how?
Other then just making it up.
Agreed. According to Rossum’s theory, the okapi should have died out.
 
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