Is downloading music always sinful?

[FLCathMom]

Okay, it seems maybe we are getting a bit off topic here, but one more thing. There is also the matter of a Christian keeping a good name for himself. Read: 1 Peter 2:11-25. We need to make sure that if people are going to slander us for being Christians, that they can find nothing to say other than that we are speaking and living a Truth that they don’t like.

Say someone in government wants to come after you because he doesn’t like that you’re a Christian. If he can find that you are breaking a law and has you fined or put in jail for it, you are not being persecuted for being a Christian, you are being punished for breaking the law. But if he can find that you are breaking no laws, but he has you punished anyway, you bring glory to God in being unjustly punished.

 

[Alphonsus_John]

Okay, it seems maybe we are getting a bit off topic here, but one more thing. There is also the matter of a Christian keeping a good name for himself. Read: 1 Peter 2:11-25. We need to make sure that if people are going to slander us for being Christians, that they can find nothing to say other than that we are speaking and living a Truth that they don’t like.

Say someone in government wants to come after you because he doesn’t like that you’re a Christian. If he can find that you are breaking a law and has you fined or put in jail for it, you are not being persecuted for being a Christian, you are being punished for breaking the law. But if he can find that you are breaking no laws, but he has you punished anyway, you bring glory to God in being unjustly punished.

I don’t particularly agree with Ayn Rand, but there is one thing she wrote that I agree with wholeheartedly. Laws are largely written to be as confusing as possible so that everyone, at one point or another, is in violation of them. Besides, Christians are persecuted even when they are following the law or the law is used to persecute Christians. Take the obsessive Tolllllllllerance of Western countries to the much more severe persecution of Christians in the muslim world.

In the USA, anyone who has ever owned a firearm in a “blue” state could easily point to a whole rash of confusing and often contradictory laws. Don’t even get me started on Sarbanes-Oxley.

I don’t want to veer this thread too far off topic, but if you’d like to discuss on another thread, I’d be happy.

 

[JesusSaves17]

just curious, is it necessary to delete the songs I downloaded illegally to receive complete forgiveness? I downloaded songs illegally when I was about 13 with no thought whatsoever of sin. Anyhow, a couple years ago I found it this was very wrong so I confessed that I downloaded music illegally. I didn’t delete the songs from my MP3 player, the priest didn’t tell me, I never thought of doing it. I don’t download illegally anymore, I buy them all. Probably 95% of my music now is legally bought, so is it necessary to delete the other 5%? I don’t want to

 

[sprout]

just curious, is it necessary to delete the songs I downloaded illegally to receive complete forgiveness? I downloaded songs illegally when I was about 13 with no thought whatsoever of sin. Anyhow, a couple years ago I found it this was very wrong so I confessed that I downloaded music illegally. I didn’t delete the songs from my MP3 player, the priest didn’t tell me, I never thought of doing it. I don’t download illegally anymore, I buy them all. Probably 95% of my music now is legally bought, so is it necessary to delete the other 5%? I don’t want to

I think it would be best to go ahead and purchase these songs through a service such as iTunes for .99 cents. That way, you are compensating the artist for the theft.

When you consider that the recording industry can fine around $750 per song then 5% could really add up and IMO just isn’t worth it.

 

[2Cor129]

This might have already been addressed, but a lot of the talk on here is about the secular law. In Canada, “recent court decisions have upheld Canadians’ right to encode music and other information electronically and make it available on file-sharing networks,” as well as download music for free. A ruling by Justice Konrad von Finckenstein declared that “Downloading a song for personal use is not an infringement, [And] Placing a song in an on-line music-sharing directory such as Kazaa is not considered distribution.” cbc.ca/news/background/internet/downloading_music.html

While it is clear that laws can be unjust, I do not see a moral distinction between uploading and downloading music which someone bought at some point, and (for example) listening to a CD, which one person originally bought, with a group of friends. The only distinction I can see is that in one case (e.g.) 1000 people can listen to a song one person originally bought at the same time, and in the latter (e.g) 10 people can. If one’s immoral shouldn’t both be? Should the number of people really come into the equation of moral judgement?

 

[dazzi]

Who knows we live in a very uneven world.
People starve on one side while the government cant handle the amounts of money he has.
I just dont see how some of these things work.
I know most of my computer softwares that ive downloaded have been for school purposes like Dreamweaver and Office because i cant afford it im only 15 and if i dont haev it i will really fall very far behind.
its the same thing with music i dont see how its stealing like one person said how can it be different to listening to it with 10 friends.
if a person that paid for it lets you use his copy then fine i dont see how its stealing isnt stealing when you do it with force like no one gives you the right you just go in and take it its liek hacking a persons computer taking there software now that i know is stealing but how is it stealing when someone gives you the right to touch their stuff??
These laws dont make sense i still laugh about the one where it says.
“its legal to record a show only for time shifting purposes and must be destroyed after being viewed once otherwise you are breaching the copyright laws” What is up with this its stupid i will never follow this law cmon everyone does it tape their show and watch it more then once and to the law its stealing so wouldnt that mean only 15% or so of our population isnt stealing?

 

[bootleggersouth]

Downloading music is not sinful if you paid for it or it is in the public domain. Copyright laws are made to protect the livelihood of the material’s creator.

All authority comes from God. A legitimate authority uses that authority (hopefully) to preserve order in society. Most laws are morally neutral. Disobeying them is a sin, because, indirectly, it’s disobedience of God.

So then, were the people who hid Anne Frank Guilty of sin for breaking the law of the land?

 

[FLCathMom]

No, we are not to obey authority when it runs contrary to God’s commandments. We are told to love our neighbors and so those people were doing what they were supposed to do. Owning music is a luxury. You cannot legitimize disobedience to civil authority for the sake of affording yourself or anyone else a luxury.

 

[bootleggersouth]

No, we are not to obey authority when it runs contrary to God’s commandments. We are told to love our neighbors and so those people were doing what they were supposed to do. Owning music is a luxury. You cannot legitimize disobedience to civil authority for the sake of affording yourself or anyone else a luxury.

That’s a great commn sense answer. Thanks.

 

[JesusSaves17]

so let me get this straight, it is OK to stick a cassette in a tape player and when a good song comes on the radio, you can hit record and record the song. Not a sin.

You go on the internet and download a song without paying for it, sin.

In the end, in both instances, aren’t you using a song for listening purposes without having to pay for it…

I have an MP3 player that has a microphone, so I can record things. So if I play a song on my computer, stick my little microphone MP3 up and hit record, it will record a song, not the same quality as if it’s downloaded, but how would that be any different than tape recording something? So confusing.

 

[bootleggersouth]

so let me get this straight, it is OK to stick a cassette in a tape player and when a good song comes on the radio, you can hit record and record the song. Not a sin.

You go on the internet and download a song without paying for it, sin.

In the end, in both instances, aren’t you using a song for listening purposes without having to pay for it…

I have an MP3 player that has a microphone, so I can record things. So if I play a song on my computer, stick my little microphone MP3 up and hit record, it will record a song, not the same quality as if it’s downloaded, but how would that be any different than tape recording something? So confusing.

I share your befuddlement and suggest that these are legalistic, rather than theological, concerns. If the fate of my eternal soul is dependent upon acts comitted on Limewire, then I’m in for some truly warm weather.

Having said that, I think it is important to make one’s best attempt to follow the laws of the land, as perplexing and irrational as they may be.

 

[dazzi]

But the law states you can only listen to recorded things one time or watch it one time for time shifting purposes and the copy of the song or movie must be destroyed after?
So arent you stealing by recording it?

 

[JesusSaves17]

But the law states you can only listen to recorded things one time or watch it one time for time shifting purposes and the copy of the song or movie must be destroyed after?
So arent you stealing by recording it?

See my parents (who are very worried about illegal downloading) always told me that it was OK for me to tape songs on a cassette, but if I sold the cassette to someone, then that would be illegal.

 

[StandUp4Truth]

so let me get this straight, it is OK to stick a cassette in a tape player and when a good song comes on the radio, you can hit record and record the song. Not a sin.

You go on the internet and download a song without paying for it, sin.

In the end, in both instances, aren’t you using a song for listening purposes without having to pay for it…

I have an MP3 player that has a microphone, so I can record things. So if I play a song on my computer, stick my little microphone MP3 up and hit record, it will record a song, not the same quality as if it’s downloaded, but how would that be any different than tape recording something? So confusing.

No, there is a absolutely a difference between recording a song from the radio and downloading an mp3 file from a P2P program. When you have to sit by a radio and must press the record button to get your favorite songs - A)you are not going to quickly accumulate as many songs as you can by downloading, B) you can’ t pick and choose which songs the station plays, C) the quality is much worse than you could buy in a store, and D) the music industry received some compensation from the radio station. When you download illegally, you get as much CD quality music as your hard drive can hold, you can choose all your favorite songs, and you pay the people that made the music nothing!

The real debate here was never, “Is illegal downloading of music, movies, and software that you don’t own immoral?” That has been answered time and time again here on CAF and the concensus is an overwhelming “YES!” It doesn’t take much to figure out why this is immoral, the difficult part is stopping yourself.

The question of the OP is, “If you already purchased a CD and something happens to it, is it right to download mp3s to replace the lost music?” This question is much trickier.

 

[StandUp4Truth]

If the fate of my eternal soul is dependent upon acts comitted on Limewire, then I’m in for some truly warm weather.

You’d better believe people are going to Hell for acts committed on Limewire, it gives millions of young people unlimited access to pornography and filth which would be outlawed in most countries!

One doesn’t have to look too hard to find truly disturbing material on Limewire and other P2P clients, stuff that(if viewed frequently enough) could encourage people to become fetishists, pedophiles, or even serial killers.

As for the music downloading, tell me how can it be moral to upload one song for a thousand people to download and use indefinitely?

Many of these people would have purchased the song via download for $.99 or gone out and bought the CD if it were not being offered for free illegally! This is clearly taking something without paying for it!

 

[JesusSaves17]

ok, next question, this is the site I use for an indication of mortal and venial sins

catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf

Now, there is a difference between mortal stealing and venial stealing. For example I read on SA that stealing a pack of gum from a store is a venial sin. Gum costs about .99 cents typically. So stealing a .99 cent song, venial sin? How many does it take for it to become mortal??

But it may not matter, because it also says under the 7th commandment mortal sin “Violating copyrights”. So isn’t downloading violating copyrights, so mortal sin no matter if it’s one song?

 

[dazzi]

StandUp4TheTruth:
We are debating here this but no matter what quality your recording is the law clearly states "It is against the law to record anything for purposes other then timeshifting When you cant watch or listen to it at the time its on and the copy must be destroyed straight away after watching the show or listening once if you do not follow this you are breaking the copyright law thus stealing.
According to the law it does not matter what quality or how you got it as long as you can watch it completely or listen to it and hear or see everything no matter what quality you cant do it unless your timeshifting and only plan to use it once.
I think there is no way to prove wrong or right until we die then we will see our mistakes but from both sides we are wrong with the law like i say its sharing you say its ok to record but the law states neither are correct.
the last question for eg i download a song movie or SOftware eg Office 00/03/07 i think if its stealing this is veinal but i think mortal stealing is when you steal of someone who does not have anything really him self like stealing out of a church or stealing of a person who is on the side of the road trying to collect money to feed himself.this is mortal i think in your heart you will feel the difference between stealing a pack of chewys or downloading a software to how much harder it feels to steal of a church or a poor person i know for one i wouldnt be able to do it no matter what i would feel emotionally depressed but me taking a software on the net from bill gates i dont feel guilty since a guy has given it to me via teh net.

 

[StandUp4Truth]

ok, next question, this is the site I use for an indication of mortal and venial sins

catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf

Now, there is a difference between mortal stealing and venial stealing. For example I read on SA that stealing a pack of gum from a store is a venial sin. Gum costs about .99 cents typically. So stealing a .99 cent song, venial sin? How many does it take for it to become mortal??

But it may not matter, because it also says under the 7th commandment mortal sin “Violating copyrights”. So isn’t downloading violating copyrights, so mortal sin no matter if it’s one song?

If you’re trying to figure out what kind of sin it is, then you’re bargaining with God - He doesn’t like it when we do that.

Keep in mind that you are looking at a PARENTING website, and the reason they talk about “stealing a stick of gum” is because they are dealing with children who either don’t know any better or don’t grasp the concept of sin. You, on the other hand, are old enough to understand the concept of sin and salvation. You are not a “kid in a candy store”, you know better.

The copyright on a piece of music is there to ensure that you pay for the product if you want to own it. Besides, we are taught to avoid sin at all costs, not find out how severe the sin is and then decide if we want to risk it.

 

[StandUp4Truth]

StandUp4TheTruth:
We are debating here this but no matter what quality your recording is the law clearly states "It is against the law to record anything for purposes other then timeshifting When you cant watch or listen to it at the time its on and the copy must be destroyed straight away after watching the show or listening once if you do not follow this you are breaking the copyright law thus stealing.
According to the law it does not matter what quality or how you got it as long as you can watch it completely or listen to it and hear or see everything no matter what quality you cant do it unless your timeshifting and only plan to use it once.
I think there is no way to prove wrong or right until we die then we will see our mistakes but from both sides we are wrong with the law like i say its sharing you say its ok to record but the law states neither are correct.
the last question for eg i download a song movie or SOftware eg Office 00/03/07 i think if its stealing this is veinal but i think mortal stealing is when you steal of someone who does not have anything really him self like stealing out of a church or stealing of a person who is on the side of the road trying to collect money to feed himself.this is mortal i think in your heart you will feel the difference between stealing a pack of chewys or downloading a software to how much harder it feels to steal of a church or a poor person i know for one i wouldnt be able to do it no matter what i would feel emotionally depressed but me taking a software on the net from bill gates i dont feel guilty since a guy has given it to me via teh net.

Dazzi, if the law “clearly states” it, please link it or provide some evidence, because I looked and I couldn’t find anything like that. No one’s debating it, you just keep saying it - no one agrees or disagrees with you because you haven’t proven your statements.

Once again, you’re trying to bargain with God if you’re figuring out what kind of sin it is to see if you should risk it. Why would you even take the chance? There’s simply no justification for illegally downloading these things because they are luxury items, you don’t need any of them.

dazzi:

I know most of my computer softwares that ive downloaded have been for school purposes like Dreamweaver and Office because i cant afford it im only 15 and if i dont haev it i will really fall very far behind.

Even the expensive software you named is not necessary, there are freeware versions of similar programs that are more than sufficient for your needs. For crying out loud, most people don’t have access to Dreamweaver(a $400 website design program) until they get to college! Why on Earth do you need it?! The answer is, you don’t!

Like I said before, it’s not hard to see why it’s wrong to have unlimited access to all the music, movies, and software you want for free when others must pay for it. The hard part is stopping yourself.

 

[JesusSaves17]

If you’re trying to figure out what kind of sin it is, then you’re bargaining with God - He doesn’t like it when we do that.

Keep in mind that you are looking at a PARENTING website, and the reason they talk about “stealing a stick of gum” is because they are dealing with children who either don’t know any better or don’t grasp the concept of sin. You, on the other hand, are old enough to understand the concept of sin and salvation. You are not a “kid in a candy store”, you know better.

The copyright on a piece of music is there to ensure that you pay for the product if you want to own it. Besides, we are taught to avoid sin at all costs, not find out how severe the sin is and then decide if we want to risk it.

I don’t download things illegally, not since I found it was immoral many years back. Just yesterday I deleted every song I could remember downloading illegally, as much as it pained me. I know we are supposed to avoid sin at all costs, but I was asking that question more for others. My cousing downloads all kinds of music illegally and I’ve tried to tell him it’s stealing but he just laughs. I read on Scrupulous Anonymous that stealing gum is venial sin, not on the parenting website. I do know better, I would never do that. But recording stuff onto a tape to listen to at a later time…I just can’t believe that is a sin. I sure hope not, cuz I’ve got 7 tapes full of songs dating back to the mid 90s.