Is eternal suffering pointless?

[arte]

Nor “should” the unknowing choices of a five year old lead ultimately to a lifetime of poverty - and yet they so often do.

Clearly, a rational and compassionate idea of how the universe ought to function is at odds with how it actually functions. Therefore, instead of railing on about what you think ought to happen, instead conform yourself to what actually does happen - teach your five year old to love learning, and teach everyone you love to receive the Sacraments and to pray.

Our universe is not perfect so it functions the way it does and I have absolutely no problem with that other than helping the 5 year old out of poverty. However, we are talking about a divine being here that is capable of working outside of the laws of our universe. Therefore, it is logical that this divine being, God, possesses attributes of love, mercy, forgiveness and justice on a level that we can never comprehend. I could not torture someone for 1 second let alone an eternity and I’m only a mere human.

What if your children grow up and no longer believe in God and with it Holy Sacraments and prayer? What if other human beings don’t believe in God or believe in another God(s), what happens to them? Do you think it is justice to torture someone 24/7 for eternity?

 

[fisherman_carl]

I haven’t kept up with this discussion lately, but a question came to me for those who do not believe in an eternal hell. The question is what do you do with evil? If there is no eternal hell then do you just let evil out to live with everyone after awhile? For example, what do you do with the demons? They won’t repent. So what do you do with them? And, then finally, what do we do with humans who have chosen evil like the demons and won’t repent?

 

[hasantas]

=OneSheep;13322495]Hello, hasantas,

The problem is that many people teach about God with their actions, right? “I am dedicated to God, according to the Prophet, and because of this, I have permission to kill all of the non-believers”. So, even though a person may have heard many good things about God, the actions of those who kill say more to the individual, and then the person gets the wrong idea about God, right? God is more loving and forgiving than any human, correct?

So, if the person says, “Oh yes, killing of all the non-believers is exactly what God wants”, and then follows this idea of Islam, then they are following a false God. On the other hand, if the person reject this idea of God, and says “this is killing is all wrong”, then would not God forgive him? It is better to show the world, and is better for the individual, that the everyone sees God as one of infinite love.

Firstly you change of design. Anyway I will answer.

We must consider and respect verses of Qur’an completely. Because verses complete each other. Otherwise if we pick up some part then we will conclude a straw man fallacy.

Here verses:

190-Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
191-And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al-Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
192-And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
193-Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
194-[Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
195-And spend in the way of Allah and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.
Al-Baqarah(2)

As you see God do not order Muslim to kill all infidels. God allow Muslims to fight as conditional probability. The permission of killing might be given in that case: Killing is forbidden so if God did not allow Muslims to retailate Muslims would be in doubt to retailate or not. And in history Muslims had not killed people casually but God allowed Muslims to fight in some cases. When enemy attack Muslims (indeed everone) have right to retailate.

The verse of “kill” is not by all means. If someone suggest that God order Muslims to kill all infidels then God is not wrong but the man who misunderstood God’s order is wrong.

We all Muslims, Christians and Jews believe in same God. Muslims know that very well. But Christians have different thoughts about God and Muslims know that very well. So we have got not wrpng Gods but we have wrong thoughts about God.

Islam is religion of peace. Before Islam the wars always existed and Islam go on the most peaceful way even in wars. Islam order Muslims to never oppress and follow on peace. It is very obvious in verses.

 

[You]

Our universe is not perfect so it functions the way it does and I have absolutely no problem with that other than helping the 5 year old out of poverty. However, we are talking about a divine being here that is capable of working outside of the laws of our universe. Therefore, it is logical that this divine being, God, possesses attributes of love, mercy, forgiveness and justice on a level that we can never comprehend. I could not torture someone for 1 second let alone an eternity and I’m only a mere human.

What if your children grow up and no longer believe in God and with it Holy Sacraments and prayer? What if other human beings don’t believe in God or believe in another God(s), what happens to them? Do you think it is justice to torture someone 24/7 for eternity?

I would imagine it is the demon doing the torture and injustice to people in hell.

 

[OneSheep]

Firstly you change of design. Anyway I will answer.

We must consider and respect verses of Qur’an completely. Because verses complete each other. Otherwise if we pick up some part then we will conclude a straw man fallacy.

Here verses:

190-Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
191-And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al-Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
192-And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
193-Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
194-[Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
195-And spend in the way of Allah and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.
Al-Baqarah(2)

As you see God do not order Muslim to kill all infidels. God allow Muslims to fight as conditional probability. The permission of killing might be given in that case: Killing is forbidden so if God did not allow Muslims to retailate Muslims would be in doubt to retailate or not. And in history Muslims had not killed people casually but God allowed Muslims to fight in some cases. When enemy attack Muslims (indeed everone) have right to retailate.

The verse of “kill” is not by all means. If someone suggest that God order Muslims to kill all infidels then God is not wrong but the man who misunderstood God’s order is wrong.

We all Muslims, Christians and Jews believe in same God. Muslims know that very well. But Christians have different thoughts about God and Muslims know that very well. So we have got not wrpng Gods but we have wrong thoughts about God.

Islam is religion of peace. Before Islam the wars always existed and Islam go on the most peaceful way even in wars. Islam order Muslims to never oppress and follow on peace. It is very obvious in verses.

Good Morning, hasantas

Yes, I see that God does not order Muslims to kill infidels, but allows for some violence to happen. In Christianity, also, the Church doctrine allows for people to protect themselves and there is such thing as “just war”. In my opinion, though, most of the war that the Christian-dominated nations have done against Islam-dominated nations is unjust. First of all, since when does “protection” involve our nation (the U.S.) flying all the way around the world to attack a people on their own land? (Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, etc). Yes, we were “helping” other people, but peaceful means would have been more “Christian”. - Not that I want to get into that debate here. I am wondering if you agree with me though.

Here is what Jesus said about dealing with our enemies and those who fight us:

Matthew 5:38-48New International Version (NIV)
An Eye for an Eye
38 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

If we all stand by our religions as religions of peace, then that is a great way to start! So many people believe that peace begins with justice, though. The problem with justice is that justice is in the eye of the individual. Every person has a different idea of application of justice. What we can all agree on, I think is what it means to forgive.

Peace begins with forgiveness, right? I do not have peace in my heart until I have forgiven those whom I have anger or resentment. The problem is, people do not know how to forgive, and people do not think of forgiving. When we are angry and vengeful, we do not think of forgiving.

So, for Christians, when we carry out justice we are called to first forgive. Can you believe that? Very few Christians follow the command to forgive. People do not think of forgiving those who are part of ISIS, for example. The Muslim people I know, also, do not forgive people of ISIS because they (ISIS) are showing the world something un-Islamic.

And then, coming back to this thread, what is the example of forgiveness? If God’s mercy and love is infinite, then so is His forgiveness! Forgiveness is an act of love. So, what would be the reason for eternal punishment, or a person’s eternal separation from God?

Thank you, I look forward to your reply,

 

[inocente]

Is eternal suffering pointless?

If you believe that God’s love extends equally to everyone (rather than only to Christians or whoever), then God will try to reconcile everyone to Him, and eternal suffering would not only be pointless but counter-productive.

If you also believe that God’s love is omnipotent, then God will eventually succeed in reconciling everyone to Him (“love never fails” - 1 Cor 13) and no suffering could then be eternal.

So a belief in eternal suffering requires belief either that in some cases God’s love will fail, or that God chooses to only love some and to not love others.

(This argument is courtesy of theologians, see plato.stanford.edu/entries/heaven-hell/)

 

[davidv]

If you believe that God’s love extends equally to everyone (rather than only to Christians or whoever), then God will try to reconcile everyone to Him, and eternal suffering would not only be pointless but counter-productive.

If you also believe that God’s love is omnipotent, then God will eventually succeed in reconciling everyone to Him (“love never fails” - 1 Cor 13) and no suffering could then be eternal.

So a belief in eternal suffering requires belief either that in some cases God’s love will fail, or that God chooses to only love some and to not love others.

(This argument is courtesy of theologians, see plato.stanford.edu/entries/heaven-hell/)

Is the human will powerful enough to reject Gods attempt at reconciliation? I believe it is.

 

[jmcrae]

Maybe time passes in hell or maybe time does not pass but just events, more terrible then the next, proceed while the person is in the everlasting now. So perhaps for them, in hell, no time passes, it is always now and eternal suffering becomes just suffering in the everlasting now.

I tend to agree with this. When we die we become free of the distractions of life, and become fully aware of the state of our souls. We then remain in that eternal moment of realization, either horrified at what we became, or praising God for how wonderfully He saved us.

 

[hasantas]

=OneSheep;13324364]Good Morning, hasantas

Yes, I see that God does not order Muslims to kill infidels, but allows for some violence to happen. In Christianity, also, the Church doctrine allows for people to protect themselves and there is such thing as “just war”. In my opinion, though, most of the war that the Christian-dominated nations have done against Islam-dominated nations is unjust. First of all, since when does “protection” involve our nation (the U.S.) flying all the way around the world to attack a people on their own land? (Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, etc). Yes, we were “helping” other people, but peaceful means would have been more “Christian”. - Not that I want to get into that debate here. I am wondering if you agree with me though.

Very good, I appreciate you. That is a good self-critism. Indeed there some Muslims too who may persecute others and they claim to do that in name of religion.

Here is what Jesus said about dealing with our enemies and those who fight us:

Matthew 5:38-48New International Version (NIV)
An Eye for an Eye
38 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Yes, Jesus taught to behave in good manner and also all messengers from God did same thing. But there are no any judgement for people who kill you or expel you from your country. Do God allow someone to expel or kill other? İsn’t that unjustice? Ofcourse we must behave people in good way and forgive them. This is recommendation and order of God.

34-And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel [evil] by that [deed] which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity [will become] as though he was a devoted friend. Fussilat(41)

39-And those who, when tyranny strikes them, they defend themselves,

40- And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it, but whoever pardons and makes reconciliation – his reward is [due] from Allah. Indeed, He does not like wrongdoers.

41-And whoever avenges himself after having been wronged – those have not upon them any cause [for blame].
42-The cause is only against the ones who wrong the people and tyrannize upon the earth without right. Those will have a painful punishment.
43-And whoever is patient and forgives – indeed, that is of the matters [requiring] determination. As-Shura(42)

And there are many Hadiths about forgiving and loving people but I cannot find them in English and my English is poor. For loving enemy! Muslim take pity on enemy because they got sins. I think with “enemy” Jesus means who do not understand believers and behave believers in bad way. Jesus did encounter many evil conditions but He always forgived people.

Islam allow and advise Muslims in three way against evil:

1. Retaliation
2. Forgiving
3. Respond in better way

All these are good and justice but Islam advise to forgive or do better.

And also look at: These are God’s comment about treat evils!

16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee: Deuteronomy(20)

9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.

10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me. Ezekiel(9)

Is not God of OT and NT same? But we could interprete OT in peaceful way, don’t we?

And we do not have to demonstrate that our religion is better. Our religions are from God so they are equal. But we see some facts and good thing in our religion and think that others are evil but that is not true.

 

[hasantas]

=OneSheep;13324364]

If we all stand by our religions as religions of peace, then that is a great way to start! So many people believe that peace begins with justice, though. The problem with justice is that justice is in the eye of the individual. Every person has a different idea of application of justice. What we can all agree on, I think is what it means to forgive.

Peace begins with forgiveness, right? I do not have peace in my heart until I have forgiven those whom I have anger or resentment. The problem is, people do not know how to forgive, and people do not think of forgiving. When we are angry and vengeful, we do not think of forgiving.

So, for Christians, when we carry out justice we are called to first forgive. Can you believe that? Very few Christians follow the command to forgive. People do not think of forgiving those who are part of ISIS, for example. The Muslim people I know, also, do not forgive people of ISIS because they (ISIS) are showing the world something un-Islamic.

And then, coming back to this thread, what is the example of forgiveness? If God’s mercy and love is infinite, then so is His forgiveness! Forgiveness is an act of love. So, what would be the reason for eternal punishment, or a person’s eternal separation from God?

Thank you, I look forward to your reply,

Do you ask why do not God forgive infidels?

Firstly God has(is) infinite love. Yes that is very true. But also God has infinite power, infinite justice, infinite wisdom, infinite life, infinite hearing, infinite mercy, infinite majesty etc. So if we just say God is infinite love then there should be some problems. For instance why do God allow infidels and persecutors to go in Hell. We cannot explain that only by love. But we can understand with infinite justice and majesty. God will punish persecutors because they had transgressed other’s rights. And a state punish criminals because the state has some laws and majesty. So do God. For example a king is very merciful in family. But he is very hard in war while command his army. And he is very justice while judge people. King send some people to prison because they had did evils. If we think king to behave in every cases as in family then that would not be use.

We cannot forgive people who transgressed other’s rights. Because if we forgive persecutors that is unjustice and unfair for persecuteds.

Every element, atoms show God. Every thing is an evidence for exist of God. So we can count countless matters in that way. An infidels rejects all these witnesses. That reach an ifinite crime.

God has infinite attributes and infidels reject those. That is the killing as moraly. And infidels behave in that way for all life.

People has many feelings and emotions. And people has very weak disposition. God do not restrain motions. Some people use their free will in good way but some people lose. God want to examine people.

But we can ask that question:Why did/do not God send all people in Heavens? My anwer is the “Allah know the best”.

 

[Michael19682]

According to Islam:

The punisment of rejecting God is the everlasting stay in Hell. The pain and suffering is the effecient cause of sins.

If someone reject God then he will stay in Hell forever because God is infinite by whole essence and attributions. If someone kill other then the punisment should be lifetime on the world. So if someone reject(rejection means killing all countless evidences, inifinite divine attributions of God) God then the punisment should be infinite.

People in Hell will suffer as much they commit sins on the world. After paying for sins they will not suffer the pangs of Hell anymore and but they will stay in Hell forver. They will be in Hell fire but they will not suffer and get used to fire or pain because they they will had been paid for sins.

Staying in Hell forever is better than being destroyed absolutely. People in prison try to go on living although in bad conditions but they do not want to die. So if we could ask to human’s conscience to choose dissolving forever or staying in Hell forever then it would prefer to stay even in Hell. Ofcourse if that conscience had not been declined.

People who enter into a contraversy in religion are lack of knowledge. Christ never informed any false.

A good post, exemplifying an advanced notion of justice.

 

[Michael19682]

I specified “unnecessarily” because if the unbaptised have reached the age of reason and made others suffer unnecessarily they should have a taste of their own medicine. Otherwise they won’t learn to be considerate and love others instead of neglecting or illtreating them.

That really is the central question. I see no good reason either for the innocent to die and suffer. Yet I have been personally changed by all this and am questioning. It was a thread in moral theology that raised these issue for me. Other than that, I do feel viscerally that innocent means innocent and that the unbaptized infant is just that.
A real conundrum for me, tonyrey.

 

[Good_Fella]

Our universe is not perfect so it functions the way it does and I have absolutely no problem with that other than helping the 5 year old out of poverty. However, we are talking about a divine being here that is capable of working outside of the laws of our universe. Therefore, it is logical that this divine being, God, possesses attributes of love, mercy, forgiveness and justice on a level that we can never comprehend. I could not torture someone for 1 second let alone an eternity and I’m only a mere human.

But God’s mercy and justice do not cancel each other out. Nor is Hell a torture chamber in the worldly sense. Finally, by your reasoning cold blooded murderers should receive only a one year prison sentence.

Honestly, since you cannot intuit the Divine essence and have no idea of what Hell actually is, you’re in no position to apply the rules of logic which serve the intellect within the scope of its natural capacities. God and Hell can be understood to some degree only in the light of faith. The natural light of reason left to itself does not extend beyond the categories of human understanding in this world.

What if your children grow up and no longer believe in God and with it Holy Sacraments and prayer? What if other human beings don’t believe in God or believe in another God(s), what happens to them? Do you think it is justice to torture someone 24/7 for eternity?

Belief in God is something more than an intellectual assent. It’s conducting one’s life according to His principles and laws. An atheist can be said to have faith if he acts in accord with a well-formed conscience. Hell is for people who erect idols for themselves which represent their disordered passions. Money, for instance, is a false god if it becomes the only important thing in life for persons who are consumed by greed even at the expense of the lives of other people. I believe the pains of Hell are somehow connected with these unbridled passions of sinful people who feel justified in feeling the way they do. Since they prefer that their souls remain in their present conditions in this life, so they shall remain that way forever in the eternal present.

In this life God gives every human being the freedom to decide what kind of people they want to be. A greedy person justifies his greed, and as long as he does justify it, he is greedy. He doesn’t want to know God or care about being in His presence if it means that he can’t have all the money he desires which is more important to him than God Himself, even when only assuming that there might be such a God. The souls in Hell are there because they have chosen to alienate themselves from God. In His justice God honours our freedom of choice. We all have only one time to repair the conditions of our souls with the help of God’s grace, and that’s in this life time. God doesn’t help us in this life if we wilfully harden our hearts against Him because we feel we don’t need Him or care for His kind of happiness and blessedness which leads to eternal life.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[OneSheep]

For utilitarian reasons human beings might say ‘Okay, let’s forget it,’ but that doesn’t mean they have forgiven the person in their heart. Chimpanzees are unable to forgive, but they can forget or ignore purely out of survival instinct and without deliberation. One chimp is unable to forgive another chimp because mentally it doesn’t have the capacity to know what the meaning of forgiveness is. Mankind has eaten of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil; … What appear to be acts of forgiveness on the part of chimps is nothing but an anthropomorphic illusion.

Hey Good Fella!

Yes, yes, and yes. I agree with all of the above. What I was saying was that we have a compulsion to forgive/reconcile from our nature. Our nature provides this compulsion, but I agree, it is not a deeper forgiveness “from the heart”. So, I gave the reasons why our nature at least compels us to “kiss and make up” versus creating more and more enemies. The latter is not to our evolutionary advantage.

But human beings often resent what appears to be cooperative behaviour, if they believe there is a false ulterior motive behind it, and they often judge that the behaviour against them is beyond forgiveness.Chimps, on the other hand, are unable to question the sincerity of other chimps and draw assumptions or measure the moral gravity of their acts against each other. It’s part of the structure of the instinct of survival for chimps to react against the uncooperative behaviour of other chimps. Conscience has nothing to do with it. They can sense what we define to be hostility without knowing what hostility is and making judgments on it. They do not have the mental ability to assert to themselves that they have been personally injured, having no ability to conceptualise. Let’s not propose that chimps have been created in the image of God. Nature, so to speak, does the thinking for them. This is part of the teleological mechanism of nature: to act as an instinctive warning device for the preservation of a species. When we hear a fire alarm bell go off, we react without actually knowing that there is indeed a real fire. I doubt chimps can take things personally in a moral sense. Genesis is clear. Mankind has eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Chimps cannot pass moral judgment on themselves. If they could, then Jesus died for them as well.

Frans de Waal observed that there are group mores among chimps, and that they enforce rules through use of punishment. Capuchin monkeys and baboons also have mores, though if to be described as a “conscience” it is very rudimentary. Chimps and other species are concerned about “fairness”, fair distribution of resources, which I think may be instinct tied to sibling rivalry issues. We humans cannot claim that we are free of our nature compelling us to “fairness”, often over-killing it. Jesus addressed such in several ways.

I beg your pardon? We cling to our grudges because we are naturally inclined to put our personal interests above those of others.

So, let’s go to the next question: Why would we be naturally inclined to hang onto a grudge, which appears to be a matter of self-interest?

By nature we are more concerned about what others shouldn’t wrongly do to us than we are about what we should rightly do to them. The truth is we often do to others that which we don’t want them to do to us. Those who refuse to forgive by having passed moral judgment against their offensive neighbours normally desire to be forgiven for their own offenses against them if they actually care in keeping with their conscience.

This is the “log in our own eye” effect, right? Hypocrisy is so common in the human (I speak of self-observation that I am thinking that it must have a purpose. If I hang onto my grudge, which is based on my own conscience condemning someone else, I also hang onto the criteria for judging my own behavior, and that may help act as a guide. On the other hand, if the criteria is so tightly held, and the condemnation severe, I may deny that I have violated my own criteria. The denial is a self-protective mechanism, but it does blind me to the fact that I may be doing exactly what I criticize in the very moment. The way that mind works is fascinating, no?

Note: forgiveness is called for, it is a call to a deeper holiness, wholeness. The conscience actually has a divisive aspect in the human psyche, though purposeful.

But Jesus has warned us that unless we do forgive others for their trespasses against us, our heavenly Father won’t forgive us our trespasses against Him. When Jesus gave his sermon on the mount, chimps weren’t part of his audience.

PAX
:heaven:

This is a very important ending of the parable of the unforgiving servant, from the Gospel of Matthew. Amazingly enough, before the parable begins Jesus was asked how many times we are to forgive our neighbor and he said “70 times 7 times” and then proceeded to tell a story about a master who only forgave once!!

The priest at our Bible study explained the story. He told us the same as Pope Francis says: “God always forgives”. However, we do not experience, in the aspect of holiness, such forgiveness unless we forgive everyone else. Without forgiving others, we will always doubt forgiveness from God, and there is a “torture” of insecurity resulting. We have to forgive all others, from the heart, in order to know God’s forgiveness. If there are conditions for our own forgiveness of others, then we are also sure to find that God only forgives us “if”.

It is a psychological phenomenon.

Feel free to contest, counter. We are sure to find more common ground once we dig a little deeper.

Thanks!

 

[Good_Fella]

I never said human beings are intrinsically holy. I do believe we are innocent from birth. We are tabula rasa at least in a moral sense. But, this moral emptiness is innocence, not guilt! Innocence and holiness are not the same thing.

In our relation to God, to be without blame is to be sanctified in body and soul. Our hearts must be without blame in order for us to be holy in God’s sight. At birth we all enter the world with the potential of wavering and losing sight of God’s steadfast love. And we do in fact waver on account of our inbred pride and inordinate self-love. Spiritually we are born dead because by nature we are not inherently blameless but alienated from God who is absolutely without blame in His holiness - goodness and righteousness. Our guilt is that state of association with mankind. Hence, we are innocent in nature only if we are entirely without blame, which we are not because we are sinful by nature. We are personally guilty and morally culpable only for our own sins which we eventually do commit at some starting point in our lives.

If grace isn’t miraculous and the work of divine intervention, then why pray for it? Why obtain it via the sacraments? If it isn’t “magic power” to do what is right, then what is its value?

It’s value lies in its own essential properties which produces a quality of the soul with human cooperation. Actual grace is a divine supernatural influence or power of persuasion that prompts our will to align itself with God’s will. It does not negate our will but helps direct it in its function to pursue what is good and righteous. Without divine help we are left totally at the mercy of our natural disordered passions. And so we must pray for divine help. Essentially we are good as God’s creatures, but we all fall short of some goodness in our lives because of our sinful inclinations. It takes sanctifying grace to restore that goodness which we have lost in our fallen state and reconcile us with God in His justice.

Only God can sanctify us and declare us just once He has turned our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh. We can never declare ourselves just before God and make Him indebted to us for our righteous deeds, since we are not entirely blameless. We are inclined to violate at least one statute of the law in the course of our lives. It makes no difference how often we sin and repent, because by nature we do not stand innocent before God. He can never be indebted to us for how we choose to act in our natural state on a given occasion. Ontologically we are deprived of the original justice and holiness because we all sin at some point in our lives by our very nature. Our inbred pride and inordinate self love constitute the state of original sin which alienates us from God and make us “vessels of wrath”.

Original sin, defined by the RCC, is not just a “state” of inclination to sin. Several councils, most clearly Trent, specifically define that guilt is the central essence, with the inclination toward evil being an effect. Pelagius believed that Adam was primarily a bad example, while Jesus was primarily a teacher and good example,… I believe we have an evil inclination, but it doesn’t make sense to believe we are born guilty.

I’ve already explained that original sin is the state of deprivation of the original justice and holiness. Thus we are born in the state of guilt by association. In effect we are inclined to sin by nature as descendants of Adam or as members of mankind. We become personally guilty and morally culpable by actually committing sins.

Job actually did declare himself to be righteous! The entire first part of the book is his friends arguing with him, insisting that God must be punishing him due to sin. God also affirms that Job is righteous. The point of the book is that only God knows why bad things happen to good people.

Job questioned whether he was being punished because his righteousness failed to meet God’s standard of being righteous and without blame before Him. He humbly acknowledged that he wasn’t perfect and was in no position to declare himself just before God because of the sins in his life; it would be presumptuous of him to think that God was entirely indebted to him because of his righteous deeds despite his sins. It seems Job acknowledged that the temporal punishments were due for his imperfections.

If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
Job 9, 20

I believe that I am literally incapable of believing things that don’t make sense, and I have no reason to suppose any human being or group of human beings has the authority to command others to pretend to believe things that don’t make sense. Is that pride?

Pride is never questioning that you might be wrong in what you choose to believe and shutting your ears or closing your eyes to what might be true.

The RCC teaches that we are not able to perform any good works without sanctifying grace. The vast majority of humanity has performed good works and righteous deeds for all of history. Do they all have sanctifying grace, though they have never received the sacraments?

I’ve already pointed out the Church teaches that the Holy Spirit operates beyond the administration of the sacraments as well.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[arte]

The souls who are denied the Beatific Vision have freely chosen not to know God in this life. God is the last person whom they ever want to see. It would be unjust if they were made to spend eternity with someone they hate or don’t want to know and be with. Don’t expect God to be untrue to them.

My quote was aimed at unbaptised babies and infants. I can’t think of any adults who die in original sin alone. If you mean adults who refuse God in this life, it is far more likely that they will want to know God in the afterlife rather than the other way around.

Do you expect God to be untrue to Himself?

I expect God to behave like a divine being which is far better than a human. I see hell as something that God would be definitely be untrue to Himself if he sanctioned it.
Good Fella;13315510:

We can’t draw a perfect analogy between human relations and mankind’s relation to God. We are finite beings, whereas God is an infinite Being. Our offenses against God are immeasurable compared to those we commit against each other. The gravity of any offense must be measured in proportion with the dignity of the person/creature which is being offended against. Certainly you don’t believe that a person who kills a cat should be sentenced to death or life imprisonment, do you?

God is also an omnipotent being. Punishing us with His power is like us stamping on an ant.

Was the death penalty or life in prison more than sufficient for the Nazis who were tried at Nuremberg for crimes against humanity?

Would you have preferred for them to be tortured in prison every day for life?

Eternity is timeless, so it really makes no difference. One month in real time can feel like thousands of years or more in the afterlife.

It would go the other way around. One month in eternity would be like thousands of years in our time. Whatever, I’m sure God can change time dilation to make a million years feel like a million years to the offender.
Good Fella;13315510:

To obliterate the soul would amount to removing the punishment, which would be unjust. Do you expect a judge to sentence a cold blooded murderer to only 1 year in jail? That would not be punishment at all, but a favour. Certainly you don’t believe that murderers should go unpunished, do you?

No, but we sentence murderers to death and it compounds the punishment many times over if they have to wait on death row for years. God could do likewise if you want a bigger punishment.

When God created the world, He knew that we would sin without having to look into the future. God is pure Act. All that sequentially transpires in real time and space is immediately known to God in the eternal present. If God knew we would not sin, He wouldn’t have created us mortal or any living thing finite. So death can still be viewed as a temporal punishment for sin. I believe God willed to create an imperfect world so that everything would evolve towards the good by way of persuasion rather than determination or coercion. God has allowed room for chance to meet His purpose.

I completely agree with you. God has created an imperfect universe and our World for a purpose. God wants us to improve ourselves without direct coercion. He is giving us free will to sort out our worldwide problems. It is not so much technical advancement although that does have a place but more mankind living in peace together; love of your fellow man.

The Church is infallible because it is guided by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:12-13).

Jesus was talking to His disciples in 16:12-13. We are all human and can make mistakes. No church including the Catholic Church is completely infallible in religious matters. All Christian churches are guided by the Holy Spirit. Even the Mormon Church claims they are guided by the Holy Spirit. At the end of the day, humans can make mistakes even though they believe they are guided by the Holy Spirit.
Good Fella;13315510:

Do you think it is unjust to sentence a cold blooded murderer to life in prison? Or would only 10 years suffice out of mercy. God’s mercy does not negate His justice. There is no conflict in the Divine essence.

It is obviously fair justice to sentence a cold blooded murderer to life in prison. Is the cold blooded murderer sentenced to torture every day whilst he is in prison? Are all the people who die in mortal sin and therefore destined for hell cold blooded murders? There is obviously a massive conflict in the Divine essence.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[arte]

I haven’t kept up with this discussion lately, but a question came to me for those who do not believe in an eternal hell. The question is what do you do with evil? If there is no eternal hell then do you just let evil out to live with everyone after awhile? For example, what do you do with the demons? They won’t repent. So what do you do with them? And, then finally, what do we do with humans who have chosen evil like the demons and won’t repent?

I believe that when we meet God, the power of His love will completely overwhelm us and totally obliterate any evil within us. The same will happen to the demons. All that remains after that is the punishment for our sins.

 

[arte]

I would imagine it is the demon doing the torture and injustice to people in hell.

But who sent them there to be with the demons? They would not have gone to hell unless someone put them there.

 

[tonyrey]

But who sent them there to be with the demons? They would not have gone to hell unless someone put them there.

Isn’t it possible that they choose to be there? If not why not?

 

[tonyrey]

I believe that when we meet God, the power of His love will completely overwhelm us and totally obliterate any evil within us. The same will happen to the demons. All that remains after that is the punishment for our sins.

Doesn’t that mean we don’t really have free will? That we are virtual slaves?