Is eternal suffering pointless?

[arte]

Doesn’t that mean we don’t really have free will? That we are virtual slaves?

If God bathes us in His love in the afterlife without our requesting it, I wouldn’t call that being treated as a slave. If He sentences us to everlasting hell, then He would be treating us like slaves. If you believe it interferes with our free will, He can give us a quick sample of what His love feels like and then give us the choice of the “full treatment”. I can’t see anyone refusing the “full treatment” - can you?

 

[arte]

By an act of their own will, like the act of the demons will, to be apart from their Maker. Freedom means choosing. Choosing acting. Acting remittance.

But someone has to act as the judge of people in the afterlife and that judge is God. People don’t freely put themselves in hell after they die. You are obviously very happy for people to suffer everlasting torment without any chance of a reprieve or forgiveness. Sorry, I’m a Christian and I cannot think like you or any other person who condones everlasting suffering.

 

[You]

But someone has to act as the judge of people in the afterlife and that judge is God. People don’t freely put themselves in hell after they die. You are obviously very happy for people to suffer everlasting torment without any chance of a reprieve or forgiveness. Sorry, I’m a Christian and I cannot think like you or any other person who condones everlasting suffering.

Now I’m just going to say this:

…than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire

These words came from the lips of the Creator of the Universe. If you find them upsetting then you can argue with Him, but it would seem to me like He has given this answer to you already. Being Christian means believing that what he said is in fact true.

 

[pocaracas]

It is because of poor English.

For instance when some kill other the punishment could be life imprisonment. And act of killing may take one or two minutes. Human’s mean life is 60 or 70 years. The punisment of act of killing mankind may be life imprisonment. And rejecting God mean to kill eternal essence and attributes of God as morally. The punisment(imprisonment) of killing of human maybe as much human’s life time. So killing God’s(ofcourse as morally) may be punisment (imprisonment) of Hell forever. So everlasting Hell imprisonment can reconcile with our justice on the world to understand God’s infiniite justice. Otherwise I do not mean to kill any one. Killing is the one of the major crime and sin which could cause to send killer to Hell. We have not right to kill others.

That’s good to know… but why are there countries where atheism is a crime desiring of death?
Saudi Arabia is one such country… the people in there should know what’s in the book, shouldn’t they?

But we have to advise each other to do good deeds. My advise for atheist is to not be so courageous and adventurous to reject God. They do not gain anything by rejecting. If they accept God that would be first step to approach God. They have not to do anything and just they will say that we recognise God existence.

There are many flavors to atheism…
Some do reject the god they were taught to believe in, when they read some nasty things about that god - frankly, nasty things can be found for any god.

But some atheists, and I speak for my own brand here, see god as a man-made construct. A useful construct, at times, no doubt, but man-made.
All holy writings are themselves man-made. Surely, some of those writings may have decent premises and ways to approach humanity… but some are just appalling… a product of the people that wrote them.
Under this view, the afterlife is also a product of human wishful thinking. It is comforting to think that our loved ones will keep going, their kindness, their bravery, their wisdom, their knowledge… those can’t just disappear with a trifle such as death. The same applies to ourselves. We don’t want to die and disappear forever. We want to live forever. We want to meet our dead ancestors. We want… but we don’t want our enemies to be in that afterlife… that wouldn’t be fair. Our enemies are bad people, their ancestors were bad people, they deserve a sort of afterlife prison, huh? Why not make this prison the most unpleasant place imaginable as a way to keep our own people from crossing over to the enemy side?.. Hell is born.
But something must put the good people in heaven and the bad people in hell… this can’t be automatic… some almighty judge must be in charge of that. This judge will know everything that need knowing about everyone to properly judge who is good and who is bad.
In ancient Egyptian mythology, this was done by Anubis… in monotheist religions, the only god is responsible for this, although, in christianity, he is assisted by St. Peter at the pearly gates (according to common culture - not sure there’s anything in the catechism about this).

It is a theme born out of simple wishful thinking and fear of death.

I wouldn’t call this a rejection of god… more like an inability to acknowledge god as anything more than fictional.
How can I reject a fictional character?
How can I reject Harry Potter? How can I reject Darth Vader? How can I reject Indiana Jones? How can I reject Superman?
It makes no sense!

If someone do not reject God so there should be a way of salvation for him. The conscience desire and wants eternity. Nobody wish to be destroyed forever and death is not being destroyed forever but is changing the worlds. Soul take out of this world and take into other world by death.

Ah, see? you agree with me!

 

[inocente]

Why are any of these things dependent on time?

Why do you think I implied that reconciliation is possibly after this life? “now is the acceptable time.”

That seems to be the Augustinian view - that at the moment of death God just gives up loving some people. His love is neither unconditional nor everlasting.

 

[inocente]

If their eye is dark then they are dark within and will not see the upgrade…

That seems a very bleak, cynical view both of God and of human nature. Surely no one could be so blind that in all eternity Almighty God could not heal them of their blindness. You appear to be saying you believe God isn’t an incompetent healer, he just gives up on some.

An eternity without time is not static. It would be akin to your dreams which are not happening in time. In eternity events happen without the restriction of time or distance.
The angels commuting between eternity and earth otherwise would cause severe delays.

Dreams happen in time. The scenes change, and they take time to change. Not sure you can merge notions of the astral plane with notions of heaven.

 

[Xuan]

I’ve been reading this thread and thinking about it a lot… A lot of people have commented about evil, selfish people who don’t want to serve God or to be with Him, and should therefore suffer forever.

But I don’t recall anybody mentioning all the good people who love God, but will still find themselves in hell (the fear and trembling issue). What about them? What about Johnny?

Johnny is a 15 year old kid who loves God very much and tries his best to love others as himself. Johnny is an athletic kid, and could gain all sorts of personal glory by participating in school athletics. But rather than participate in sports, when he gets home from school he goes over to the homeless shelter to do volunteer work. He really wants to help people and he sees this as a good way to serve “the least of them”. He’s been doing it for over a year.

But one day when he gets home from school he falters and gives in to his unrelenting hormones and masturbates (in a way that fulfills the requirements for mortal sin). When he finishes, he regains his composure and realizes that if he doesn’t really hurry, he’s going to be late getting to the shelter.

He doesn’t reflect on his sin because his focus is now on getting to the shelter on time. He sees Christ in each of those people and wants more than anything to serve Christ by serving them. In his rush, he gets careless, accidentally steps in front of a bus, and is killed immediately.

According to Church teaching, anyone (in this case, Johnny) who dies with an unrepented mortal sin goes straight to hell and stays there forever. But Johnny doesn’t want to be separated from God. He wants more than anything to be with God. Yes, he faltered under extreme pressure, but he didn’t stop loving God. In fact he was on his way to demonstrate his love for God. The torture for him is even more extreme because he has to spend forever in the company of souls with whom he has nothing in common.

Is this really the way it works? I can’t help remembering Christ’s words: 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Xuan

 

[You]

That seems a very bleak, cynical view both of God and of human nature. Surely no one could be so blind that in all eternity Almighty God could not heal them of their blindness. You appear to be saying you believe God isn’t an incompetent healer, he just gives up on some.

…

He did say that he only lost one.

 

[OneSheep]

According to Church teaching, anyone (in this case, Johnny) who dies with an unrepented mortal sin goes straight to hell and stays there forever. But Johnny doesn’t want to be separated from God. He wants more than anything to be with God. Yes, he faltered under extreme pressure, but he didn’t stop loving God. In fact he was on his way to demonstrate his love for God. The torture for him is even more extreme because he has to spend forever in the company of souls with whom he has nothing in common.

Is this really the way it works?

Hi Xuan,

Have you ever read Good Goats by Linns? They have a very positive view of God’s infinite mercy. It is an excellent book.

The Church allows for purgatory, which is a purging. The Church does not say that death is the absolute deadline to choose God or accept forgiveness.

God Bless

 

[Aloysium]

If God bathes us in His love in the afterlife without our requesting it, . . .

We don’t agree on hell, nor heaven it seems. This sounds like heaven is some big ego trip. That’s not my image, which is of seeing God with all creation singing His praises. We are bathed in his love right here and now, always. Not everyone realizes this because they are looking at themselves and lesser goods. When we love others we know love.

:twocents:

 

[hasantas]

=pocaracas;13329595]That’s good to know… but why are there countries where atheism is a crime desiring of death?
Saudi Arabia is one such country… the people in there should know what’s in the book,shouldn’t they?

I do not know about that. Can you say an implementation from any Islamic country?

There are many flavors to atheism…Some do reject the god they were taught to believe in, when they read some nasty things about that god - frankly, nasty things can be found for any god.

But some atheists, and I speak for my own brand here, see god as a man-made construct. A useful construct, at times, no doubt, but man-made.
All holy writings are themselves man-made. Surely, some of those writings may have decent premises and ways to approach humanity… but some are just appalling… a product of the people that wrote them.
Under this view, the afterlife is also a product of human wishful thinking. It is comforting to think that our loved ones will keep going, their kindness, their bravery, their wisdom, their knowledge… those can’t just disappear with a trifle such as death. The same applies to ourselves. We don’t want to die and disappear forever. We want to live forever. We want to meet our dead ancestors. We want… but we don’t want our enemies to be in that afterlife… that wouldn’t be fair. Our enemies are bad people, their ancestors were bad people, they deserve a sort of afterlife prison, huh? Why not make this prison the most unpleasant place imaginable as a way to keep our own people from crossing over to the enemy side?.. Hell is born.
But something must put the good people in heaven and the bad people in hell… this can’t be automatic… some almighty judge must be in charge of that. This judge will know everything that need knowing about everyone to properly judge who is good and who is bad.
In ancient Egyptian mythology, this was done by Anubis… in monotheist religions, the only god is responsible for this, although, in christianity, he is assisted by St. Peter at the pearly gates (according to common culture - not sure there’s anything in the catechism about this).

It is a theme born out of simple wishful thinking and fear of death.

I wouldn’t call this a rejection of god… more like an inability to acknowledge god as anything more than fictional.
How can I reject a fictional character?
How can I reject Harry Potter? How can I reject Darth Vader? How can I reject Indiana Jones? How can I reject Superman?
It makes no sense!

Ah, see? you agree with me!

So atheists say religion is fictional product!

There have been thousands of people(prophets) who informed us about God. If the religion(belief) had been merely by fictional then every prophets would tell a different story. But all prophets reported about a creator, angels and other world. There should be some differences in details but all told same main topics.

Those prophets had proved their clams by miracles. Miracles are different from fascinations. Thousands of people saw miracles from prophets so they believed them. Non of people had believed a prophet by an easy way. They had hard consideration as I for instance always dispute my belief to understand.

Prophets had never lied. If they were used to lie then we may not to believe them. But non of a prophet lied. Why would they lie about most importand issue.

Most of prophets had complications and difficulties because of their claims but they never had drawn back althogh some were killed.

Prophet did not claim such things to get a station or property but they spend all their property for their case.

There should be some different beliefs about God. The first human was a prophet and He(Adam) told about God. Humanity race had known about God from very initally so these thoughts might take various forms by time in distinct societies.

Millions of people had experienced what prophets told and they verified what prophets informed. Those experiences are by morally. But I think an atheist have to reject all moralities because the source of morality is soul. Human has soul and that soul can make decision or can start to do someting or to stop. A computer run by electric energy but computer can operate only by programs. So the source of soul cannot be physical or biological energy. Machine cannot take human’s senses. And souls are created by God.

Dreams sould be evidences of existence of God. Because God’s knowledge and wisdom is eternal and God knows everything without time and matter. Sould is one kind of law of God.(All physical laws are manifestations of God’s power. There are no matter of energy or gravity! We say energy or power are in bonds. We just name it but cannot understand true nature exactly.) And by dream sould stay a bit free. So it can see some parts from morality. Some people see some cases in dreams and that case happen exactly later. I have some experiences too.

…

…

…

So when I consider if God exist or not then I see the positive side is more likely.

That issue cannot be only by fictional. But every one has free will to choose a side.

 

[Xuan]

Hi Xuan,

Have you ever read Good Goats by Linns? They have a very positive view of God’s infinite mercy. It is an excellent book.

The Church allows for purgatory, which is a purging. The Church does not say that death is the absolute deadline to choose God or accept forgiveness.

God Bless

Hi OneSheep,

I hadn’t heard of that book, but it looks interesting. Thanks.

As far as purgatory goes, the Church doesn’t allow for it in my example because the kid died in a state of unrepentant mortal sin. He goes straight to hell and all his love for God counts for nothing.

I don’t think anyone knows what happens after death, and I don’t think it’s going to be nearly as cut-and-dried as some would have us believe. I think a lot of people are going to be very surprised when they see it face to face.

Xuan

 

[tonyrey]

Unless they are extreme masochists, no one is going to choose everlasting suffering over everlasting happiness.

Even in this world there are individuals who choose to live for themselves because it gives them great pleasure and satisfaction even though they are frustrated and miserable because their power is limited. It is a well-known fact that we more we have the more we want - unless we restrain ourselves. The only antidote to self-love is love for others but that requires self-sacrifice which not everyone is prepared to make. That is why Jesus told us to take up our cross and follow Him. He wouldn’t have warned us if everyone followed His example - nor is there any guarantee that everyone will obey Him. There is plenty of evidence of our weakness when faced with temptation.

To deny the possibility of Hell is to reject Our Lord’s teaching and underestimate the harsh reality of evil but it is an understandable mistake because it is impossible for us to grasp the full extent of the horror and cruelty in the world. If we could we would probably go out of our minds. Yet on the other hand we cannot know how many saints there are like Archbishop Romero who are filled with unselfish love and courage in their dedication to the poor and oppressed. If we could we would be overcome with a deep sense of shame and guilt for having done so little to help those who are less fortunate than we are. Similarly we cannot grasp the full meaning of “divine” and “diabolical”. They are extremes we are not expected to understand because they are far beyond our scope. All that matters is that we try to do the best we can and leave the rest to God remembering St Paul’s words:

35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—**not even the powers of hell **can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:31-39

 

[arte]

Now I’m just going to say this:

…than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire

These words came from the lips of the Creator of the Universe. If you find them upsetting then you can argue with Him, but it would seem to me like He has given this answer to you already. Being Christian means believing that what he said is in fact true.

You are obviously quoting from Mark 9:45. It depends on what bible you use because the wording changes significantly. In some bibles it’s Gehenna which is debatable whether it is hell or not. Furthermore, some bibles do not use the word “unquenchable” which would denote it is not eternal. You should also note the following: John 12:32: “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. **Jesus is saying that everybody will be drawn to Him so no one will be lost; no one goes to hell. ** It also seems to me that He has also given His answer to you already. I defer to my paragraph below.

I will repeat my thoughts on Jesus and hell. When it comes to hell, I am a Christian Universalist. Christian Universalists believe that Jesus’ quotes on hell have been mistranslated. The Bible was originally written in Archaic Hebrew, Archaic Aramaic, and Koine Greek. All of these languages are classed as “dead languages”. It was then translated into Greek and later into Latin. It was then translated into English in the 14th century. I may not be correct in my version of events above but without doubt there were several translations which lead the Bible to being wide open to mistranslations.

 

[TarkanAttila]

I will repeat my thoughts on Jesus and hell. When it comes to hell, I am a Christian Universalist. Christian Universalists believe that Jesus’ quotes on hell have been mistranslated. The Bible was originally written in Archaic Hebrew, Archaic Aramaic, and Koine Greek. All of these languages are classed as “dead languages”. It was then translated into Greek and later into Latin. It was then translated into English in the 14th century. I may not be correct in my version of events above but without doubt there were several translations which lead the Bible to being wide open to mistranslations.

Now, I am not a Universalist. But I do strongly believe in the mercy and love of God. You say you do not believe anyone is in Hell. What’s more, you say there cannot ever be anyone in Hell.

I would almost be willing to believe this. I would want it to be true. Would that I could be a Universalist.

But your opinion, sadly, is mistaken. It is lacking that one crucial element: free will.

Yeah, there are ignoramuses, whom God may very well properly inform, so they can make an informed decision. Yes, there are addicts who do not have the strength to break free, and God may give them that strength.

What of those who have willpower and knowledge? What of the Devil? Is he in Hell? If he is, I think it quite possible for a man to be in Hell, because the man wills to be apart from God. “Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven,” as Milton wrote, is certainly not impossible to a man.

If a man can go to the moon, live in space, change himself in all things but DNA from a man into a woman, marry another man and call it “marriage”, and undermine the foundations of Christendom by merely saying “non serviam” - what is it to say to God “non serviam” but a slight step beyond?

 

[arte]

Now, I am not a Universalist. But I do strongly believe in the mercy and love of God. You say you do not believe anyone is in Hell. What’s more, you say there cannot ever be anyone in Hell.

I would almost be willing to believe this. I would want it to be true. Would that I could be a Universalist.

But your opinion, sadly, is mistaken. It is lacking that one crucial element: free will.

Yeah, there are ignoramuses, whom God may very well properly inform, so they can make an informed decision. Yes, there are addicts who do not have the strength to break free, and God may give them that strength.

What of those who have willpower and knowledge? What of the Devil? Is he in Hell? If he is, I think it quite possible for a man to be in Hell, because the man wills to be apart from God. “Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven,” as Milton wrote, is certainly not impossible to a man.

If a man can go to the moon, live in space, change himself in all things but DNA from a man into a woman, marry another man and call it “marriage”, and undermine the foundations of Christendom by merely saying “non serviam” - what is it to say to God “non serviam” but a slight step beyond?

What an interesting reply. I have always included “free will” in my belief in Universal salvation. I may be wrong but from what I have read on the subject of Universal salvation, the early Church Fathers were largely Universalists and did not believe in eternal torment. They took this stance from the evidence in the original Holy Scriptures. The church fathers closest to the beginning of Christianity were well versed in Koine Greek (the language of the New Testament) and largely did not believe in endless torment for the sake of retribution. **They believed in limited, corrective punishment **based on their understanding of the original Holy Scriptures which were mainly, if not totally, written in Koine Greek. I have also read that some of these original Holy Scriptures were written in Archaic Hebrew and Archaic Aramaic. I believe most scholars say they were all written in Koine Greek?

I want to bring in “free will” and my position on “corrective punishment” that I have always mentioned in my comments when needed in this thread. I firmly believe in “you do the crime; you do the time”. I have no problem with Adolf Hitler serving 1 million years in prison and a lot more if justified. However, I do have a problem with Adolf Hitler being tortured and especially being tortured forever. He and everyone else uses free will and free will has consequences but these consequences should not lead to **eternal **punishment/torture.

I now want to bring in the most important “person” in all this – God. What attributes does God have? He is omnipotent - infinitely powerful. He can create a universe in the blink of an eye. He has so much love especially for the advanced life forms he has created that the love of a trillion saints would be infinitely dim by comparison. He has infinite amounts of forgiveness, mercy and justice. Yet with all the above infinite attributes, we are told to believe that for one unconfessed mortal sin at death; He will sentence you to torture for eternity. Even mere human judges in the developed World would never sentence anyone to torture for a second. I rest my case.

 

[You]

You are obviously quoting from Mark 9:45. It depends on what bible you use because the wording changes significantly. In some bibles it’s Gehenna which is debatable whether it is hell or not. Furthermore, some bibles do not use the word “unquenchable” which would denote it is not eternal. You should also note the following: John 12:32: “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. **Jesus is saying that everybody will be drawn to Him so no one will be lost; no one goes to hell. ** It also seems to me that He has also given His answer to you already. I defer to my paragraph below.

I will repeat my thoughts on Jesus and hell. When it comes to hell, I am a Christian Universalist. Christian Universalists believe that Jesus’ quotes on hell have been mistranslated. The Bible was originally written in Archaic Hebrew, Archaic Aramaic, and Koine Greek. All of these languages are classed as “dead languages”. It was then translated into Greek and later into Latin. It was then translated into English in the 14th century. I may not be correct in my version of events above but without doubt there were several translations which lead the Bible to being wide open to mistranslations.

New International Version
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

New Living Translation
During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.

English Standard Version
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

I didn’t obviously write this, I’ll just paste but I’m sure you know it.

And I guarded (them) - ἐτήρουν signifies watchful observation; ἐφύλαξα, guardianship as behind the walls of a fortress - and not one perished - went to destruction - except that the son of perdition (has perished). Christ does not say that the son of perdition was given him by the Father and guarded from the evil one, and yet had gone to his own place; the exception refers simply to the “not one perished.” Αἰ μὴ has occasionally a meaning not exactly equal to ἀλλὰ, but expresses an exception which does not cover the whole of the ideas involved in the previous clause (see Matthew 12:4; Luke 4:26, 27; Galatians 1:19, etc.). This awful Hebraistic phrase is used by St. Paul (2 Thessalonians 2:3; cf. 2 Samuel 12:5) for antichrist, and numerous phrases of the kind show how a genitive following υἱὸς or τέκνον expresses the full characteristic or the chief feature of certain persons (thus cf. υἱὸς γεένης τέκνα φῶτος κατάρας, etc.). This victim of perdition, this child of hell, has completed his course; even now he has laid his plans for my destruction and his own. He has so perished in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Even if the full telic force of ἵνα is preserved here, he does not free the “son of perdition” from the responsibility of his own destruction. The Scripture portraiture of Messiah has been realized. Psalm 41:9, which has already been quoted by our Lord in John 13:18, is probably still in his mind (cf. also Isaiah 57:12, 13). Some commentators - Arch-deacon Watkins, Dean Alford - press the fact that the “son of perdition” must have been among those who were given to Christ by the Father, who were watched, guarded, taught by God; but that Judas nevertheless took his own way and went to his own place. Thoma compares the lost disciple with the lost sheep of the synoptists, as though we had a reference to a true reprobate, a son of Belial, Apollyon, and the like. Moulton justly protests against any countenance being found here for the irrevocable decree. But if the interpretation of the εἰ μὴ given above is sound, there is no inclusion of the traitor among those who are “of the truth,” etc.; but he was one who, notwithstanding boundless opportunity, went to his own place in the perversity of his own will.

Berean Study Bible
While I was with them, I protected them and guarded them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Berean Literal Bible
When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

New American Standard Bible
"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

[pocaracas]

I do not know about that. Can you say an implementation from any Islamic country?

Here’s the news report from Human Rights Watch:
"
The interior ministry regulations include other sweeping provisions that authorities can use to criminalize virtually any expression or association critical of the government and its understanding of Islam. These “terrorism” provisions include the following:

Article 1: “Calling for atheist thought in any form, or calling into question the fundamentals of the Islamic religion on which this country is based.”

"
It’s right up there in Article 1!!
Affiliation to a terrorist group is in Article 4… just goes to show where the priorities lie.

I’m sorry, I don’t know arabic to find an adequate original source. This is the best I can do.

So atheists say religion is fictional product!

I say that. Other atheists may just not think about it and simply stick with “I don’t care”.
Although, it does come off as a result of considering all gods as non-existent. If they don’t exist, then someone must have invented them. There’s no other way, is there?

There have been thousands of people(prophets) who informed us about God. If the religion(belief) had been merely by fictional then every prophets would tell a different story. But all prophets reported about a creator, angels and other world. There should be some differences in details but all told same main topics.

“all”? “thousands”?
What do you know about religions other than your own?
Ancient Egyptian mythology lasted for about 4000 years - with some changes along the way… did they receive the same message as your prophets? I’d wager that “no”, because, otherwise, they’d have come up with your religion, instead of theirs.
Ancient Greek mythology also lasted for quite a few centuries… at the time, they called them Oracles… did they get the same message as your prophets?
Buddha was on to something… but still not the same as your prophets.
The hindus… with their myriad variations… they’ve been around since before christianity (or even judaism)… did god tell them something different?

In Central America, the Maya had they bloodthirsty gods, in the shape of huge birds… what was going on there?!

And these are just a sample from some of the better known religions that humanity has accepted.
Many others could be brought forth…
Many others with messages contrasting your prophets… so, no, not all come with the same message.

You may say, at best, out of all the religions that mankind has ever made up (you accept that those others are clearly made up, right?), at best, one of them is true, one of them represents reality. But, considering they all require the same level of belief, I can’t tell which may be the true one. So I’m left with putting them all in the same bag.

Those prophets had proved their clams by miracles. Miracles are different from fascinations. Thousands of people saw miracles from prophets so they believed them. Non of people had believed a prophet by an easy way. They had hard consideration as I for instance always dispute my belief to understand.

yeah, of course. 100 years ago, tons of people believed this yogi was levitating:
yogicmiracle.blogspot.pt/2009/03/indian-yogi-subbayah-pullavars.html
Nowadays… well… we don’t believe them, we know their tricks.
Ignorant people can be fooled by simple tricks.

Prophets had never lied. If they were used to lie then we may not to believe them. But non of a prophet lied. Why would they lie about most importand issue.

People can speak truthfully and still say things that aren’t real.
They may have believed it.
Many people, today, make inferences from the beliefs they are taught as children and come, in turn, to believe in those inferences. It’s the wonderful world of theology.

Most of prophets had complications and difficulties because of their claims but they never had drawn back althogh some were killed.

Well… some people could see their lies…

Prophet did not claim such things to get a station or property but they spend all their property for their case.

Some, yes… some were in it for power, money, fame… some still are: huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/19/best-paid-pastors_n_1214043.html

There should be some different beliefs about God. The first human was a prophet and He(Adam) told about God. Humanity race had known about God from very initally so these thoughts might take various forms by time in distinct societies.

How long did it take to come up with the ancient egyptian mythology and convince all egyptians that it was true?

[continued]

 

[pocaracas]

[continuation]

Millions of people had experienced what prophets told and they verified what prophets informed. Those experiences are by morally. But I think an atheist have to reject all moralities because the source of morality is soul. Human has soul and that soul can make decision or can start to do someting or to stop. A computer run by electric energy but computer can operate only by programs. So the source of soul cannot be physical or biological energy. Machine cannot take human’s senses. And souls are created by God.

Are you saying I reject all morality?
Well, I better go to jail then, before I hurt anyone… oh wait, I’ve managed to get through 35 years of life without hurting anyone (except my brother when we got in a tumble, but that’s normal)… how on Earth do you explain that?! There are millions of atheists who live perfectly good and moral lives… how does that happen?
Here’s a hint: api.ning.com/files/QfF46QZjDE4Zaz4VQvShngGBfmPgZ1bRL9yGh0L1Utj05hy9po*9gRkgACoBw5P7s7iBfTwnlmuSj7HETpHqH3DNF0hF74/PennJilletteOnWhyHeIsntRapingandKillingEveryone42715.jpg

Dreams sould be evidences of existence of God. Because God’s knowledge and wisdom is eternal and God knows everything without time and matter. Sould is one kind of law of God.(All physical laws are manifestations of God’s power. There are no matter of energy or gravity! We say energy or power are in bonds. We just name it but cannot understand true nature exactly.) And by dream sould stay a bit free. So it can see some parts from morality. Some people see some cases in dreams and that case happen exactly later. I have some experiences too.

It would be awesome, if things were like that… really!
Perhaps they are… perhaps not… Thus far, we, mankind, have no reason beyond wishful thinking to think that reality is like that.

Dreams are just your brain’s inner workings while you sleep.
Many don’t make sense, because the brain is taking stuff from all over and reprocessing it for better long term storage… or something of the kind… who knows?..

So when I consider if God exist or not then I see the positive side is more likely.

That issue cannot be only by fictional. But every one has free will to choose a side.

Good for you. I’m sure you’re a better person, thinking that. Keep your choice of belief. Hold it close to you. It is precious. I’ve told this to someone else on this forum, too…
I’m here just telling you how I view the world… sometimes, drawing upon my knowledge of others to say “many atheists think this” or “some atheists think that”… but mostly, it’s my view, my impression of the world around me. It maybe wrong, but it makes sense, to me.
Around me, I see people… people with very complex brains… people with similar brain physiology, similar feelings, similar reactions to similar sensory (name removed by moderator)ut. Similar fears… similar desires… similar lives.
It makes sense that they would come up with similar solutions to some of the most baffling problems… life and death… our place in the planet, in the solar system… in the Universe.
Given that, it makes sense that people would come up with the notion of an external, invisible overseer, even if that notion comes about through careful logical thought.

 

[TarkanAttila]

What an interesting reply. I have always included “free will” in my belief in Universal salvation.

I go off of Fr. Barron’s take on it.

youtube.com/watch?v=x8zhnooySk4

But I can see how it could apply to many attributes of the human person. If God sees it meet and right for a man to give up chocolate (to be somewhat flippant) to enter the Kingdom, and the man refuses, despite God’s protestations - for he wills to have no Heaven without chocolate - what can God do with such a will?

I may be wrong but from what I have read on the subject of Universal salvation, the early Church Fathers were largely Universalists and did not believe in eternal torment.

It may well be largely - just as I largely believe in God’s mercy.
At the same time, I do also believe in His justice. I don’t believe the wrath or anger of God is confined to the Old Testament, you follow. He’s the same God, throughout.

Part of this shows in Jesus’s talk of an “unforgivable sin”. Do you remember that passage, in Matthew?

“every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”

What, I wonder, might that sin be?

Jimmy Akin gives an interesting reply, by putting that snippet in the context of what He is doing - namely, an exorcism. Here’s Mr. Akin’s take on it, if you have the time: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/UNFORGIV.htm

And while most sins, as Our Lord seems to imply, might be forgiven, why that one? If He meant to warn us about it - besides warning us not to do this or that, or to do this or that, else we should “have no life in us” - why?

God’s mercy is vast. Jesus has indeed show us that. But He and the Fathers, and God the Father Himself, have shown He is also just, and He will condemn men as He sees fit. Maybe the Fathers largely believe in God’s mercy - as do I. But it is undeniable they believe in His justice as well. I leave you with this:
scripturecatholic.com/hell.html

A catalogue of the few but certain statements of the Fathers and of Scripture that there are some sins even a man can do that cannot be forgiven - by man or God. You will notice some early names such as Irenaus, Tertullian, and Hippolytus, that had an intimacy with Scripture that you claim modern people do not. And it is true. But it seems to still be no excuse for a radical Universalism, I’m afraid.

Yet with all the above infinite attributes, we are told to believe that for one unconfessed mortal sin at death; He will sentence you to torture for eternity.

No. We are told the ordinary means of salvation are through the sacraments. We do not know what God Himself is capable of, though we can imagine - as you seem to have.

But while God is infinitely good and just, and the rest, what are we? Can we not resist Him, even unto death?

If God brings a wholly hateful soul into Heaven, will that soul not still be in Hell, because that soul hates God and all that is good? Don’t tell me you’ve never met someone who resists goodness, or kindness, or charity, with all fervour and vigour. I believe such people exist, for I have met them. Some people - few they may be - will to never learn. God forbid them from learning, they say.

And so it is. And that is Hell.